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I love that they're really going with the government conspiracy angle. As interesting as the premise is I was worried it would wear thin after two hundred or so chapters of titan killing.
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Dec 12, 2011 20:13
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The way Eren kind of lost himself for a moment was a really great scene. Because of how it was translated and the face he's making.  People may knock the art but the faces are great.
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Jan 13, 2012 08:25
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I don't know why I expected Eren seeing the kids looking up to the scouting legion to give him hope. Unlimited despair for everyone. 
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Feb 10, 2012 15:36
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appledan posted:which begs the question: why dont they all build/live underground?!?!?!? They mention how they tried it in this chapter, but the project was abandoned for some reason. Probably something to do with the higher ups, or maybe they were afraid the giants would just stomp really hard and completely gently caress their poo poo sideways.
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Mar 11, 2012 07:26
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I wouldn't be surprised if Armin's real plan was to trick Eren into gaining the motivation to fight Annie
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Apr 11, 2012 17:06
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Wili posted:Now we have a group of smallish titans vs the scouting legion and the rookies we haven't seen in some time, so I hope we are getting a rest from all the despair and going for some thrilling but ultimately safe badassness. With some plot twist regarding the direction the titans came from. Yeah no these guys are screwed. I can't imagine how they managed to get that many titans to lay still long enough to build around them. Annie had some control over the titans in the forest, so it could be they've had the ability for a good century. Or, the titans in the wall were man-made titans.
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Jun 10, 2012 21:52
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Hodgepodge posted:Huh? Bigfoot-dude only says that "he was pretty sure we speak the same language" and asks if Mike is too scared to speak. He's reacting to the fact that Mike isn't answering him, not expressing any actual ignorance. He also doesn't know what 3D gear is and can only guess as to what the swords are for. He obviously doesn't know much about humans
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Jul 8, 2012 19:57
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I always assumed Annie was just drawing the Titans' attention to her. They did prioritize titan Eren over humans, so they seem to have a problem with them.
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Jul 14, 2012 07:19
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Vincent Valentine posted:I was so sure that titan was her dad. Seriously, just compare their faces. All's well that ends well, though! Well, except for the old woman. She's proper hosed. But she's still alive!  Sasha's just lucky this isn't like other manga, that flashback would've been a death sentence.
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Aug 11, 2012 22:48
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I'll be amazed to read a chapter of this manga that disappoints.
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Sep 9, 2012 17:35
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It's possible that the ones in charge still teach the old language, but I'm thinking Ymir is just hundreds of years old, like a titan in human form
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Oct 11, 2012 18:27
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I'm assuming by the coordinate Bert means the basement, but they don't know what it is yet. Likely there's something in there they want like the titan formula or some sort.
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Jul 6, 2013 16:50
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Holy poo poo a regular black guy in a manga. What a breath of fresh air.
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Jun 8, 2018 20:18
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I don't think it's fair to say you have to disassociate fiction from reality when the fiction is so clearly heavily influenced by reality. You can watch Star Wars a dozen times and not make the stormtroopers = nazis connection but you sure as hell would if Luke Skywalker lived in an European ghetto with an armband on.
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Feb 17, 2019 05:18
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Does the 13 year limit count if she's been frozen in carbonite for a large majority of it?
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Jul 1, 2019 00:34
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Falco Jaw Titan bout to look stupid as fuuuuck.
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Jul 5, 2019 04:21
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The story’s so strong on its own that you can’t help but ask “Why is it drawing parallels to these specific people and these specific events?” And it’s the one thing that hinders enjoying the series 100%. People are always gonna be extrapolating what Isayama means to say with his story since he set the pins up in the first place, especially when the best case scenario is “he’s using these elements to seem cool without considering the wider implications” and worst case is “He’s nazi”
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Oct 6, 2019 18:42
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tweet my meat posted:I like how "is considering the wider implications and also is not a nazi" doesn't even register as a possibility for you Those popular idioms “best case scenario” “worst case scenario” and “medium case scenario”
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Oct 6, 2019 18:50
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Conspiratiorist posted:I don't think these mean what you think they mean. It’s ok to critically view the media you consume, friend. If you got a different reading from the Eldians wearing armbands and living in ghettos being retribution for crimes that we now see were definitely committed then let’s hear it. TheHan fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Oct 6, 2019 |
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Oct 6, 2019 19:00
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tweet my meat posted:You described two bad scenarios, neither was a best case scenario. Best scenario in this case. The objectively good case scenario is “this writer drew parallels while making their intentions clear, leaving no room for debate” or “this writer didn’t include this imagery” Schwarzwald posted:Do you believe that the manga has adequately demonstrated that the Eldian ethnicity as a whole is jointly guilty of King Fritz's tribal war of conquest two millennia ago and that the Marleyan government is justified in forcing them to live in ghettos and in (quite literally!) dehumanizing them? Thing is, I don’t think it’s done a very good job saying one thing or the other, which is the problem. Isayama set up the question of “Who’s really responsible for this?” And implies both sides had a reason for what they believed. At the same time he drew a whole dang lotta parallels to Jewish people and the holocaust and once you’re there you can’t really both sides that. Pinning the whole thing on one guy is marginally better but still doesn’t mesh with the real world parallels made, which is what makes me assume he’s using imagery without considering the wider implications, rather than actively malicious.
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Oct 6, 2019 19:51
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Depiction isn’t the problem, it’s why draw parallels to the Jewish at all? This is a fictional story about fictional people in a fictional world but for some reason he threw in this specific real world thing.
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Oct 6, 2019 20:02
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Schwarzwald posted:"Who's really responsible for this" is the wrong question to ask. The atrocities in Attack on Titan are shown to be the result of generations and generations of systemic problems compounding on each other. There is not single person or people who are "really responsible," no one could possibly be held accountable for that. Even King Fritz is presented as an unexceptional tyrant, like so many in history. He did not invent tribalism, slavery, or ghettoization*. There's nothing unique about him other than being in the right place at the right time. I like the idea of the entire point being that oppressive power structures are the problem, and it does play into the attack titan always being used to destroy those oppressive systems (I like Gantolandon’s reading of AOT saying race is a social construct used to separate and oppress lower classes even more, but in a series that’s so heavily focused on genes and heritage like with the Ackermans they’d have to just come right out and say it for me to fully buy into it). The point is that it’s such a strong message already that drawing holocaust parallels where you didn’t need to was the dumbest thing, cause now all everyone thinks about is what does this have to do with the holocaust and what does Isayama think about the Jewish? In the last few chapters he could really take it home and make the moral explicit and that symbolism is still there loving everything up. Turin Turambar posted:Because the ghetto image was powerful and it fit the story very well. 
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Oct 6, 2019 20:57
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Conspiratiorist posted:Basically TheHan wishes the Eldians had been black so they didn't need armbands. I don’t think...this is the sick own you think it is.
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Oct 6, 2019 21:14
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Gantolandon posted:Japan doesn't have the cultural taboo against using Nazi-related imagery (or at least, it isn't so strong as in Europe and in the US). Attack on Titan is a product made by a Japanese author for the Japanese market primarily, which the Western audience picked up in the middle of the series. I don't think an author from a foreign country has the obligation to only use symbolism that won''t offend the American or European reader. Not only is that a really bad excuse to dismiss careless imagery but Isayama is clearly aware of the larger implications of the specific things he used. He’s not putting his bad guys in SS uniforms just to sell how bad they are. Conspiratiorist posted:No, I believe that it uses the imagery to accomplish exactly what it sought to, which is to show the worst excesses of otherization that people actually do to each other, and does so while also treading a line from the most supernatural to the least supernatural. So you think he had to connect Eldians to Jewish people during the holocaust or this all would’ve been lost on us? Like, it was either the holocaust or slavery in the US less this whole story completely fall apart. A soldier fed a child to dogs but now that I’m wondering if the Eldians are supposed to be Jewish is when I really think about the depths man will sink to. TheHan fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 6, 2019 |
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Oct 6, 2019 22:12
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Conspiratiorist posted:Feel free to list examples of systemic real-world otherization that don't actually draw parallels to real-world events. Do you mean in fiction? Cause like, a lot. Steven Universe is also about a kid fighting against and eventually changing an oppressive system that looks down on anyone different or considered lesser. There’s a whole subclass of people who’re literally just made to serve and mixing of the classes is grounds for execution. Steven Universe is for children, but it managed to get its themes across without throwing in holocaust imagery. Gantolandon posted:It doesn't mean he's unaware, it means that most of his intended audience won't bat an eye. Whoa buddy, never said AOT is being used to whitewash the holocaust, not even sure where you got that. My original complaint was that it was dumb to put it in at all cause with every new development the conversation inevitably turns to “What is he trying to say about the Jewish?” Conspiratiorist argued that he had to put in the holocaust imagery to get his point across, which I’m currently arguing is uh, stupid. Arguing that he is aware and it’s ok cause his direct audience don’t care is also, uh, stupid.
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Oct 6, 2019 22:52
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Gantolandon posted:He could use other imagery, but he had no obligation to do that. You seem to take for granted that using Holocaust imagery in a story with an anti-fascist message is a bad thing and the author should be ashamed of himself, which is a pretty bizarre idea. He can use whatever imagery he wants, it doesn’t protect him from criticism if it’s done poorly. You keep posting assuming my issue is with the imagery at all, and not how it was used in this specific context.
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Oct 6, 2019 23:04
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Conspiratiorist posted:Real world. Dias posted:So, I think this is where poo poo's getting mixed up. Isayama intentionally used WW2 ghetto imagery for a very specific purpose: displaying the Marley Eldians as an otherized, segregated ethnicity. I think we can all agree with that, no one is saying otherwise. Now, the issue with using real-life imagery is that quite often it's used when you're making allegories in storytelling, and we kinda default to reading them as such. Thing is, I don't think the Marley Eldians work as an allegory for Jews because...they weren't supposed to be an allegory at all. Isayama wanted to evoke otherization and used the most famous symbol of otherization in modern history, but the text doesn't support "Eldians are Jews" both from an anti-Semitic or a sympathetic point of view. This pretty much perfectly summarizes it. I’m not coming for Isayama’s character here, just how when you throw in symbolism without considering the wider implications you run into things like, all of this. A way more innocuous example of this is the creator of the headbanging pigeon pissing off parts of Thailand. In that case, she just wanted to do a nice thing and made a mistake, genuinely unaware of the implications and what those symbols mean. Then you have David Cage and Detroit: Become Human, which just, sucks. Gantolandon posted:You have to prove it's done poorly. Using Holocaust-based imagery fits the story, which first takes every fascist trope existing and deconstructs it, then shows how ethnic-based identity is used by the ruling class to keep their subjects docile and divided. I think if it was done well, it wouldn’t leave room for debate at all. If people are arguing whether you intended to demonize the Jewish race, that’s like my bar for “Did not convey your ideas clearly”
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Oct 6, 2019 23:40
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ImpAtom posted:That's not really genuinely fair at all. If your argument is "people can take negative things away" then almost nothing can follow your rules. You unironically have people who will argue that ANY sufficiently evil group was in the right. There are people who claim that Voldemort from Harry Potter was objectively in the right despite being a literal snake-faced evilman. Yeah you can take it to an extreme, but that’s true of anything. I’ve never read Harry Potter but from what I’ve heard, Voldemort is just wizard hitler and wants to do genocides. I’m assuming there’s nothing in the text that implies he’s in the right for wanting to just do evil things, and only the most liberal interpretations of it could come to that conclusion. That’s akin to those edgelords who college who would try and argue that Hitler was good for Germany, actually. Gantolandon posted:Just like the existence of bronies and sexualised MLP fanart is a proof that the authors of the cartoon didn't consider the wider implications, they shouldn't have made ponies that could be considered sexy! See, like this. There’s nothing to support arguments cause the stories make their points clear (or in the case of MLP uhhh, doesn’t bring up loving the ponies at all). Attack on Titan explicitly leaves specific things vague, which in this specific instance is something you super don’t want to leave open to interpretation.
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Oct 7, 2019 00:25
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ImpAtom posted:Then you can point to anything else. The Empire from Star Wars, Starship Troopers, Zeon, X-Men, it doesn't really matter which. There will be a not-insignificant group of people who take that message away from something that has ambiguity in *any* form. You can compare it to all sorts of media, but literally in this specific story there’s a whole arc that shoves in a ton of holocaust parallels and then at the end the characters asked “what’s the real reason this all happened?” giving two conflicting stories, one of which put the blame on the oppressed. Of course people are gonna start giving you the sideye, it’s not exactly Rugrats creepypasta to see some hosed up things with what you’re given. Also of those examples you gave, the original Star Wars trilogy made their bad guys planet busting Space Nazis and never once tried to go "Maybe they've got a point". In the second trilogy they tried to test the both sides water and famously hosed it up. X-men pulled a ton from the civil rights movement and coded the mutants as a minority race who are righteous in their mission. Bobby in X-1 "coming out" to his parents is a great scene, but once they did that introducing a mutant cure in X-3 was met with criticism cause why would you do both, your story isn't able to handle this.
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Oct 7, 2019 01:37
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Super Rad posted:And then you have Magneto, a holocaust survivor, who becomes the embodiment of humanity's fear of mutants who wants to lead an army of mutants to destroy humanity... idk how you could possibly be glossing over that part especially since Magneto's perspective and goals are always portrayed as extremely sympathetic but outright wrong. Cause in that instance we were talking about reading into media. Since my point was that Isayama left his portrayal open ended, Magneto is a great example of a story that does make it a point to say “we’re not agreeing with this”
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Oct 7, 2019 02:25
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Conspiratiorist posted:And at the end of that arc Kruger answers this question by saying both versions are propaganda, and that wherever the truth of the past lies it doesn't change the fact that the oppression the Eldians are suffering through is wrong and the fault for perpetuating it lies in the world's existing power structures (the Marleyan government and the King of the Walls) That's the part I'm referring to when I say the story just leaves it open ended, Kruger just says that the truth isn't real and moves on. Fine, history is written by the winners and all that. So why specifically use imagery from the one instance in history where one side was 100% in the wrong and lying about everything? There was no "cycle" where years before the jewish people (Who also aren't some entirely separate nation, they were also German) committed horrible acts against the rest of Germany, the imagery just doesn't mesh. Like Asuron said: Asuron posted:To be honest it really seems like you're arguing in bad faith. The idea behind those ghetto's is not to talk about the Jews/Holocaust, it is to talk about dehumanisation. It isn't about the holocaust, why specifically evoke that image? It just doesn't fit, really.
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Oct 7, 2019 03:49
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ImpAtom posted:... Are you being serious right now? Like seriously? That isn't even the only time in the past hundred years, let alone the only time in history. Hey, the point's this: Attack on Titan's doing a morally grey story where everyone's lovely to each other and there's layers to both sides that have caused them to justify doing terrible things. Eldia attacks world, Marley attack Eldia, Marley attacks world. The holocaust was an objective atrocity and if someone's implying that there was any grey in it or that it was retribution for an earlier incident then hell yeah people are gonna start seeing red flags. The whole point is that it doesn't fit into a morally grey story so using that specific imagery was a huge misstep. And, I just put 'the' instead of 'this' by mistake.
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Oct 7, 2019 04:17
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Conspiratiorist posted:Did you like, ever take a world history class? It’s cool that you’ve inferred the author’s intent using narrative clues and your knowledge of world history. That’s the same thing other people did when they saw the holocaust imagery. All I’ve really said is that the use of it was clunky and if it’d been left out the story would be better for it. ImpAtom posted:And this is where the issue lies. You seem to think that these things are different if there's 'justification' in it, ignoring that historically there is always justification for it to the people who do it. Many times those justifications are nonsense bullshit and even when they are based on something 'real' that real thing is twisted into nonsense. The idea that there is such thing as an 'unambiguous' mass murder is pretty much ignoring history, because people will always try to justify themselves and even if there is any truth to imagined reasons that doesn't suddenly make it okay. If anything that makes it sound even more out of place. Yeah there are people who’ll try and justify the holocaust, those people are nazis. Why open the holocaust door and invite comparisons between one side of your conflict to nazis, especially when your theme is about violence begetting violence and no side being justified in their actions. Cause now one side looks like nazis, and the other looks Jewish. Just open any other door.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:14
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ImpAtom posted:So this actually does come back to the fact that you did mean to type 'the one' and not 'that one.' You think *any other comparison* would be okay. Do you not realize how awful that sounds? Why would I mean reaching over and opening a door to another real world mass tragedy? There doesn’t have to be any direct reference to a real world tragedy here at all. If I had to pick a story element to convey that a class of people are being horribly oppressed by their own country I’d probably, I dunno, have a member of that country’s law enforcement murder a child by having them torn apart by dogs. You know, just for daring to wander beyond the arbitrary boundaries set up to confine them. Then I’d clock out early and not open any more doors cause I’ve already perfectly conveyed my message.
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Oct 7, 2019 05:38
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Ethiser posted:So what was making the Titan bodies for Ymir? Was she outside of time making her own bodies? And if so does that mean she was always predestined to have Titan powers and free will doesn’t exist in Titan world? Zeke’s shown it’s possible to go to the source while still alive, so she probably has to go there and make a body while from human perspective it all happens instantly. You could also argue that since the source connects the past and the future that once she was there she was making her own bodies in the past. It’s kinda ironic that Eren’s whole goal is freedom from physical and societal boundaries and he’s locked in this weird pre-destination paradox. He probably already figures he’s screwed but in the end his friends and family get to be free (he also only has a handful of years left).
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Oct 7, 2019 15:09
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Keep in mind that outside of drinking your predecessor the original 9 also manifest randomly when the host dies. The Ymir’s original titan could have just respawned in a descendant anywhere down the line, and once it did and the royal family caught wind of its power they kept tabs on it.
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Oct 7, 2019 15:39
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Liquid Dinosaur posted:Okay. For some reason I couldn't consider the idea that as the Prime Titan, she wasn't some kind of 100% unique titan with all Nine being reflections of some part of her power set or temperment (like hell, Cart Titan makes a whole lot more sense considering the undignified poo poo she put up with). But I guess she could just be (mostly) Founding. I think in flashbacks the founding titan has been shown as being a step above the other 8, plus I don’t think it was in the most recent chapter with the other 8? But you could definitely tie them back to Ymir! Attack: Ymir wanting to be free, Eren pretty much says that’s why she made it Beast: As a slave from birth she’s been dehumanized. Armor: As the founding Titan Ymir was untouchable Collossal: She big Cart: What you said Warhammer: Besides the exo-rib cage the founding has that’s similar to the spears the warhammer makes, as someone else mentioned Ymir was killed by a spear Jaw: Ymir’s kids being forced to eat her remains Female: She...woman...
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Oct 7, 2019 16:19
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:if she's outside of time and quits, then does that mean there retroactively are no titans? Or do the paths have their own separate time stream? It’s more like Dr.Manhattan or Billy Pilgrim rules.
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Oct 11, 2019 15:34
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Eren genociding the entire world and setting things back to what we were led to believe was the case at the start of the series is actually the most fitting and most Eren ending.
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Nov 7, 2019 03:47
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I don't think Eren is necessarily frothing mad. Super angry at the world sure, but he's already seen himself do this and probably seen how it plays out, and it doesn't look like he gets to the finish line. The way Armin and Mikasa talk about him changing it's like the fact that he hasn't been incredibly passionate and angry is out of the norm.
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Nov 7, 2019 23:32
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