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Talking more about the "my empire can't win if town has a perfect game" thing that got so much attention.
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Jun 5, 2014 16:48
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Oh whoops I forgot this part on my votecounter post Not voting: bowmore, Ixtlilton, Tom Tucker, tearshed, 50 pounds of bread, Ernie, Eight Dollars, VivaNova, Your Personal Muse Man I can imagine the Baltic empire's doc to be super quiet.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:10
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So loooking at the votes at me currently: DGK - feels legit in his vote, but the low post content worries me. Has he been active in his empire document or is he also absent there? QPQ - feels fake to me. Not only does his vote contain a question that was already answered, but he then questions JakeP for putting a vote on the person he, obstensibly, thinks is scum. JakeP - Yea, I'm fine with his vote, though I feel like he should know better than to vote for me for something stupid like this. It's been a long time since I played though so I give you the benefit of a doubt. Rarity - Leaning town because of the massive amount of posting at the start of the game, but the vote on me is basically an aside. Lack of any kind of history with the player makes it hard to judge. Anyone want to tell me if Rarity is always this explosive in posting in the thread at the begining? Meinberg - Meh, low post numbers, nothing really said in any of them, could go either way. So, with that said, ##unvote ##vote QuoProQuid
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Jun 5, 2014 17:33
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Eight Dollars posted:Also Amnistar's probably not scum because scum wouldn't make a slip that huge and dumb. I don't like how quickly you shrug it off. I personally think it could go 50/50, leaning scum, but to assume scum wouldn't do anything is a pretty bad way to go about things.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:35
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Amnistar posted:
This is Rarity's second game ever.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:36
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Sandwolf posted:I don't like how quickly you shrug it off. I personally think it could go 50/50, leaning scum, but to assume scum wouldn't do anything is a pretty bad way to go about things. I agree with this sentiment. Eight feels wierd, because scum DO do stupid poo poo like this. I also don't like Lampsacus who assumes that the information is correct, but I must have some kind of super special awesome personal mission that deals with it.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:37
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Amnistar posted:DGK - feels legit in his vote, but the low post content worries me. Has he been active in his empire document or is he also absent there? He's been the least active in our doc but the rest of us all know each other already pretty much so I think that's understandable. quote:Rarity - Leaning town because of the massive amount of posting at the start of the game, but the vote on me is basically an aside. Lack of any kind of history with the player makes it hard to judge. Anyone want to tell me if Rarity is always this explosive in posting in the thread at the begining? I don't know if I am! This is only my second game. I think so? Maybe?
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Jun 5, 2014 17:40
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Sandwolf posted:I don't like how quickly you shrug it off. I personally think it could go 50/50, leaning scum, but to assume scum wouldn't do anything is a pretty bad way to go about things. Here's my thought process if it helps. In a huge game like this I think that scum wouldn't want any attention on them at all, especially on a day 1 where everyone's bouncing back and forth, so I don't think a vet like Amnistar as scum would want to say something that people would obviously jump on. Your opinions may vary, but if you're leaning scum on the dude why are you not voting him?
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Jun 5, 2014 17:55
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Eight Dollars posted:Here's my thought process if it helps. In a huge game like this I think that scum wouldn't want any attention on them at all, especially on a day 1 where everyone's bouncing back and forth, so I don't think a vet like Amnistar as scum would want to say something that people would obviously jump on. Your opinions may vary, but if you're leaning scum on the dude why are you not voting him? I am going to frame this and then make you read the games I used to play in.
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Jun 5, 2014 17:56
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Rarity posted:He's been the least active in our doc but the rest of us all know each other already pretty much so I think that's understandable. Don't know you folks, timezone difference, and I'm not at my computer a whole lot when all the chatting is going on.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:00
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Eight Dollars posted:Here's my thought process if it helps. In a huge game like this I think that scum wouldn't want any attention on them at all, especially on a day 1 where everyone's bouncing back and forth, so I don't think a vet like Amnistar as scum would want to say something that people would obviously jump on. Your opinions may vary, but if you're leaning scum on the dude why are you not voting him? I'm not voting him because I'm not sure I want to yet. I think it's a scummy move, and I totally could see scum thinking the public knows that there are 5 scum. I could also see this game having more/less than 5 scum. I could also see town taking a guess on it though. So I'm torn.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:00
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Amnistar posted:I am going to frame this and then make you read the games I used to play in. Actually going back to the only game we played together (Battle Royale) you claimed serial killer D1 so I take back everything I said 
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Jun 5, 2014 18:01
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Generally speaking, I find that the "too scummy to be scum" argument is typically fallacious. In addition, I have no idea who Amnistar is or how he plays. In the absence of a meta to support an alternative interpretation, the scum slip argument, mostly in regard to thinking predicated on a presumed knowledge of the number of scum in the game, is the most valid one to my own perspective. While I will acknowledge that it is possible that he was working from an assumption that he had come to believe was verified, his statements to this effect felt very forced to me, and made my gut be all like, "nuh uh, this guy ain't telling the truth." My gut is not quite as eloquent as the rest of me. Preview Edit: DGK2000 posted:Don't know you folks, timezone difference, and I'm not at my computer a whole lot when all the chatting is going on. Just come in and talk to yourself. It's a cool thing to do.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:05
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Woah things are happening in this thread! My embassy is open but I saw bad things might happen to me within an hour (??) someone quick tell me what I need to do!
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Jun 5, 2014 19:06
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Tom Tucker posted:Woah things are happening in this thread! busb posted:Oh and that's not all busb posted:Okay CHANGED EVENT If you've sent your stats in, you should be fine.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:24
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Day Event!
Every nation must PM me their vote for the empire's diplomat, and you cannot vote for yourself
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I'm good then. I don't have time to think about this right now but we, as a town, have incredible weapons at our disposal. If we can generally agree on people who are scummy we can through the thread debate targets for military / espionage, wield the world's force as our personal vigilante. On a smaller scale each individual empire should be doing this as well, but considering the different win conditions this isn't an ideal solution as, for the goal of elevating the town in general, we should do it through the thread to thin the influence of individual empire goals. I also want to have serious talks about the possibility of open discussion of empire goals. As far as I understand none of these should be 'anti town', but if we ignore them we risk turning otherwise town players into basically third party players. We can't afford that. Thoughts on this? As for me I read the rules but don't have them down pat yet, there's obviously a lot to keep track of (which I think rocks anyone who has seen the wild west games knows I like complicated rules), but I've only skimmed the thread. Amnistar could easily have slipped but I don't think so, I think he's just town who assumed 5 empires 1 scum / empire more or less and just got that idea in his head. Considering all there is to keep track of I don't consider it a slip and I do think some of the votes on him are opportunistic.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:02
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Problems on the group forces of vigilante justice: 1.) unless someone has an ability, the only person that will be targetted will be the elected protector of night actions 2.) Assuming similiar abilities to last thread, the scum can gently caress the poo poo up with their actions and trying to unify would be bad 3.) Empires are going to want to protect empire members to ensure they can acheive their empire goals. As for discussing the empire goals...yes and no? If the scum have a member in every empire, than they already know so it shouldn't help them any to talk about it. However empire goals are not anti-town doesn't mean empire goals are pro-town. In fact most empire goals, if they're at all like last game, will be something that distracts from the town, or harms is as an aside.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:30
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Amnistar posted:As for discussing the empire goals...yes and no? If the scum have a member in every empire, than they already know so it shouldn't help them any to talk about it. However empire goals are not anti-town doesn't mean empire goals are pro-town. In fact most empire goals, if they're at all like last game, will be something that distracts from the town, or harms is as an aside. I think we all know the legion is military based by now.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:32
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Our empire goal doesn't require the blood of town in order for us to win hth
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Jun 5, 2014 20:34
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mr.capps posted:I think we all know the legion is military based by now. Just because I want to invade aragon...and then possible naples...and frisa...doesn't make me evil!
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Jun 5, 2014 20:55
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Meinberg posted:Generally speaking, I find that the "too scummy to be scum" argument is typically fallacious. In addition, I have no idea who Amnistar is or how he plays. In the absence of a meta to support an alternative interpretation, the scum slip argument, mostly in regard to thinking predicated on a presumed knowledge of the number of scum in the game, is the most valid one to my own perspective. No it's not Meinberg, when people do things that they know will attract negative attention to themselves it's a valid argument. Look at Virigoth's justification for lynching Magnus vs. the scum's justifications in merk's game, Virigoth gives the real answer that Mags got lynched for being a fuckhead, the scum gave the answer they thought he was scum. Virigoth got NK'd by the SK because of people like you who don't understand these things. And guessing the number of scum players in a post like that is so far from a scum slip even if it's right it's not even funny, you guys aren't this bad. And for Pander, OOC vs. in your empire aside, how is capps asking for us to look at our empire for the scummiest person scummy at all? Seriously, answer me that. It's to the benefit of his empire to the detriment of scum, it's the least scummy thing you could be doing.
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Jun 5, 2014 20:58
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Asking people to look in their empire isn't scummy. Insisting that there HAD to be such a person was.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:15
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Pander posted:Asking people to look in their empire isn't scummy. Insisting that there HAD to be such a person was.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:15
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Pander posted:Asking people to look in their empire isn't scummy. Insisting that there HAD to be such a person was. Fair enough.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:16
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Also, so early in the game most of the talking is gonna be in spreadsheets where people coordinate and meet-n-greet. Such a request is essentially asking for people to share privileged info, dirt on their empiremates nobody else can see. It's hinted at several times, too.mr.capps posted:who is your scummiest player. if you do not answer the question we must assume you are haboring evil scum mr.capps posted:There is no reason for a joke phase to exist in this game, we all have docs were we should be getting good reads on people because in those docs people are actively working together. Because ixt jumped to his defense, all he had to do was mr.capps posted:"im going to pretend capps said all of this, that will get him!" I also still don't get Your Personal Muse posted:Confirming.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:29
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Post histories, compiled by phone Amnistar Asiina bowmore Crazyeyes DGK Eight Dollars Ernie. Fifty Pounds of Bread Grandicap ixtlilton JakeP Juanito Lampascus Meinberg mr capps Pander Poque QuoProQuid Rarity Sandwolf Tearshed Tom Tucker VivaNova Your Personal Muse yuming
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Jun 5, 2014 21:35
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Pander posted:I also still don't get It was a joke. You see, it is a joke because I was saying that someone not in my coalition is the scummiest person in my coalition! Man what a riot! There wasn't a point. This whole Amnistar scumslip is dumb. First of all 99% of scumslip aren't scumslips, and secondly, given amnistar's focus on the civ aspect of the game as opposed to he mafia aspect (which is what I gathered from one of his posts), I would suspect the whole "our empire can't win if town plays a perfect game" is from that same desire. That being said, I think it's reasonable to assume that amni's group is more on the 3p of the scale, so perhaps we should take that into consideration.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:51
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Except it wasn't funny at all. Like, there's no expectation that any audience would look at that and go "yep, good joke".
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Jun 5, 2014 22:09
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Your Personal Muse posted:This whole Amnistar scumslip is dumb. First of all 99% of scumslip aren't scumslips, and secondly, given amnistar's focus on the civ aspect of the game as opposed to he mafia aspect (which is what I gathered from one of his posts), I would suspect the whole "our empire can't win if town plays a perfect game" is from that same desire. First point, I actually agree with and moves me off of Amnistar p. much completely. Second point, really bad. Why would you try and push 5 dudes into the "3P" spectrum?
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Jun 5, 2014 22:23
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Also, paging Africans to Africhat.
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Jun 5, 2014 22:23
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Your Personal Muse posted:
Why in the world do you think think there is a 3P element to this game? anime gently caress pillow posted:Post histories, compiled by phone You are a psychopath to have done this over the phone.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:34
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Pander posted:Except it wasn't funny at all. Like, there's no expectation that any audience would look at that and go "yep, good joke". Ok, I guess. What does me making a joke that you don't approve of have to do with me being scum? Sandwolf posted:First point, I actually agree with and moves me off of Amnistar p. much completely. From the way he's acting. Granted, I'm making assumptions and basing it off of my wincon, and I'm certainly not calling for a lynch or for us to change our night actions necessarily to counteract or destroy them, it just seems to me it is wise to use the fact that amni stated that his wincon could not be achieved with a perfect town victory (even if he was mistaken) as evidence that his coalition is on the 3p side of the spectrum.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:36
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The rules thread stated that coalitions will be on a town---->3p spectrum.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:37
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Your Personal Muse posted:The rules thread stated that coalitions will be on a town---->3p spectrum. That is no different than the standard mafia rules that state "There may be 3rd party in the game".
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Jun 5, 2014 23:39
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Crazyeyes posted:That is no different than the standard mafia rules that state "There may be 3rd party in the game". I'm fairly confident from the last civ game that some coalitions are more focused on harming other coalition than others, and therefore would be considered more 3p.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:42
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Crazyeyes posted:That is no different than the standard mafia rules that state "There may be 3rd party in the game". So I'm pretty confident there aren't any 3p nations in this game either.
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Jun 5, 2014 23:52
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VivaNova posted:No, the language is the same from last years game when there were no 3p nations, only empires with 3pish attributes. I don't know how that differs from my own point on the subject...
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Jun 5, 2014 23:53
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Crazyeyes posted:I don't know how that differs from my own point on the subject... So why are you arguing with me? I was saying that amni's group is probably more 3p
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Jun 6, 2014 00:09
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oh god nine pages, okay let me catch up >:-) sorry, crazy work days, prepare for spam
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Jun 6, 2014 00:10
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Our full empire wincon absolutely requires no scum left. Not some survivor or SK type wincon bullshit. In the course of normal play, it's entirely possible that we do absolutely nothing anti-town, and still meet our objective through some lucky results. But it's not the likeliest outcome. We may have to make some strategic choices that aren't the BEST for town, but also aren't geared specifically toward helping scum. Priority during the day is still finding and lynching scum. Lampsacus posted:Part of his mission might include knowing that there are five scum (if there are). Lampsacus posted:People were jumping to scumclusions. I wanted to make it heard there are alternative scenarios where Am. could have both slipped up and not be scum.
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Jun 6, 2014 00:17
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