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knox
Oct 28, 2004



TrixRabbi posted:

I've got a P&V of Notes from a Dead House I was gonna start soonish. Is it even worth it?

I read that translation as well; compared to other Dostoevsky novels it's not as much of an issue/wouldn't worry about it with Notes.

For something like Karamazov though with the amount of characters and dialogue between them, is when P&V issues come through.

edit; oops thought you said Notes from the Underground. Maybe still applies but yeh have not read that one.

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Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG!!!




Bleak Gremlin

Idaholy Roller posted:

Anyone else download every single one of those freebie Archipelago books during lockdown? Been saving Blinding and a General Theory of Oblivion but currently reading Sarajevo Marlboro, which is equal parts depressing and funny as hell.

I downloaded only a few that seemed interesting.

Morning Bell
Feb 23, 2006



Illegal Hen

I've got the David MacDuff translation of Karamazov and I don't like it, like swimming through word-soup, stuffy is right (I've read Karamazov in Russian but wanted to do English for a re-read). It's funny because MacDuff's translation of Isaac Babel's Red Cavalry was, I think, excellent.

MockingQuantum
Jan 20, 2012




Hi thread, give me your opinions on Inferno translations. I've never read it before, if that matters. Most of the recommendations I've seen through casual googling seem to point to Pinsky or Ciardi, but I'd like to hear some informed goon opinions too.

derp
Jan 21, 2010

when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again

Lipstick Apathy

I read the Mark Musa translation and very enjoyed it. i am not an expert.

mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

There is no route out of the maze. The maze shifts as you move through it, because it is alive.




*slams through door, gasping*

Someone asked about Dante?

There are different routes you can go here. The Durling/Martinez volumes are signficantly more faithful than any other translation, but that tends to suck some of the poetry out of it. Musa is good and has some great parts. Ciardi is bullshit, and Longfellow is a tryhard. Pinsky and Mandelbaum are acceptable but you could do better.

And then there is Clive James, who did a great job with an impossible task. I haven't read Alasdair Grey's version yet but I think it's 2/3 published by now and Paradiso is coming next spring.

Edit: so I guess I'd have to say Musa, this being your first read. If you wind up re-reading or studying, get Durling/Martinez because the footnotes and essays are absolutely stellar.

mdemone fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Sep 10, 2020

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



mdemone posted:

I haven't read Alasdair Grey's version yet but I think it's 2/3 published by now and Paradiso is coming next spring.

I had no idea he'd finally done it! It's online here: http://alasdairgray.blogspot.com/

june genet
Aug 28, 2020



since discussion is on translation anyway: I want to pick up Gogol's Dead Souls but I need/would like some guidance w/r/t which translation to pick. The Guerney translation has the more attractive cover...

Ras Het
May 23, 2007

when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.


june genet posted:

since discussion is on translation anyway: I want to pick up Gogol's Dead Souls but I need/would like some guidance w/r/t which translation to pick. The Guerney translation has the more attractive cover...

I've read P&V and Maguire and I guess I would recommend the latter

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat




The Maguire's good.

derp
Jan 21, 2010

when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again

Lipstick Apathy

I enjoyed the Constance Garnett version

MockingQuantum
Jan 20, 2012




mdemone posted:

*slams through door, gasping*

Someone asked about Dante?

There are different routes you can go here. The Durling/Martinez volumes are signficantly more faithful than any other translation, but that tends to suck some of the poetry out of it. Musa is good and has some great parts. Ciardi is bullshit, and Longfellow is a tryhard. Pinsky and Mandelbaum are acceptable but you could do better.

And then there is Clive James, who did a great job with an impossible task. I haven't read Alasdair Grey's version yet but I think it's 2/3 published by now and Paradiso is coming next spring.

Edit: so I guess I'd have to say Musa, this being your first read. If you wind up re-reading or studying, get Durling/Martinez because the footnotes and essays are absolutely stellar.

Thank you for this! I imagine the Musa should be pretty easy to track down, so I'll grab that one.

MystOpportunity
Jun 27, 2004


june genet posted:

since discussion is on translation anyway: I want to pick up Gogol's Dead Souls but I need/would like some guidance w/r/t which translation to pick. The Guerney translation has the more attractive cover...

Nabokov swore by Guerney, fwiw. I’ve only read that one but quite enjoyed it.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat




MystOpportunity posted:

Nabokov swore by Guerney, fwiw. I’ve only read that one but quite enjoyed it.
That's only because it was the latest one at the time, and the ones before were all much worse. I would recommend the Maguire or Magarshack over it; the Guerney version's a fair bit wordier than it needs to be.

Mokelumne Trekka
Nov 22, 2015

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?



Wow, the tales I read from One Thousand and One Nights including Sinbad the Sailor really roc'd!

The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

Y’all still reading books? I’m starting A Little Life soon, as The South Tower picked it up recently, and I try to read any books she gets that interest me.

Serious question: are Dante and Milton fantasy authors?

ulvir
Jan 2, 2005



no, they’re not

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang




*points to le morte d'arthur* fantasy

Morning Bell
Feb 23, 2006



Illegal Hen

just read Unbearable Lightness of Being, 25% of the way through it I thought "this book better do a lot more than what its done so far," but I reckon it rallied with a bit more depth around the halfway mark. the communist stuff was good but the love and sex stuff was maybe too much for how 'flattened' it was? in conclusion Milan Kundera is a good name.

artism
Nov 22, 2011



The North Tower posted:

Y’all still reading books? I’m starting A Little Life soon, as The South Tower picked it up recently, and I try to read any books she gets that interest me.

Serious question: are Dante and Milton fantasy authors?

Yeah you fuckin moron, the priest who wrote about Hell was an atheist

Give your head a shake

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

mdemone
Mar 14, 2001

There is no route out of the maze. The maze shifts as you move through it, because it is alive.




Hey just because he's reading Yanagihara is no reason to be rude to him.

Or maybe it is?

coathat
May 21, 2007



The North Tower posted:

Y’all still reading books? I’m starting A Little Life soon, as The South Tower picked it up recently, and I try to read any books she gets that interest me.

Serious question: are Dante and Milton fantasy authors?

No fantasy is about things that aren't real.

derp
Jan 21, 2010

when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again

Lipstick Apathy

Isaac Newton: fantasy author of the luminiferous aether

Famethrowa
Oct 5, 2012



dante is dystopia ya adventure novel

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

BENIS


I never read computer video game novelizations.

artism
Nov 22, 2011



The North Tower posted:

Is any fantasy good? Besides the Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost.

Twice you made this horseshit joke. Do me a favor and keep to yourself ‘in the Italian fashion’

artism fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 9, 2020

The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

artism posted:

Twice you made this horseshit joke. Do me a favor and never discuss literature or anything else with anyone but your wife ever again ‘in the Italian fashion’

That’s a little aggressive, and sorry for trying to have fun + this thread’s been dead since mid September. I have a friend who writes ‘genre’ literature and we had a zoom call where it came up again. I’m still unsure of what it would be, not that it really matters. Tolkien was also a Catholic (maybe you didn’t know this?), so it’s clearly not religious beliefs if one doesn’t consider Dante to be fantasy. Dante probably didn’t believe that Geryon or harpies are real, so it’s probably not the existence of fantastical creatures. Is it intent? Is it the setting (Dante’s work taking place in an imagined inside of Earth, while Tolkien obviously takes place in a different world)? Since you seem to be super qualified for this, maybe you can elaborate.

Re: Yanagihara, idk is it that bad? I haven’t started it, but usually my wife reads fluff as she describes it, so I figured I’d have something book-related to talk about if I read this one. I got her to read Pale Fire with me and told her I’d read one of hers if it sounded good. Saw the ‘M-B prize finalist’ on the cover when she got it and decided I’d rather read that than something like Celeste Ng.

The North Tower fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Oct 9, 2020

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat




Dante believed in the afterlife, if not the specifics of his depiction; Tolkien did not believe in Middle-Earth.

derp
Jan 21, 2010

when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again

Lipstick Apathy

The North Tower posted:

Dante probably didn’t believe that Geryon or harpies are real

curious how you came to that conclusion. people believed in all kinds of demons and creatures and etc in the 14th century.

The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

Sham bam bamina! posted:

Dante believed in the afterlife, if not the specifics of his depiction; Tolkien did not believe in Middle-Earth.

Thanks. That makes sense as a qualifier.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat




The North Tower posted:

Re: Yanagihara, idk is it that bad? I haven’t started it, but usually my wife reads fluff as she describes it, so I figured I’d have something book-related to talk about if I read this one. I got her to read Pale Fire with me and told her I’d read one of hers if it sounded good. Saw the ‘M-B prize finalist’ on the cover when she got it and decided I’d rather read that than something like Celeste Ng.
From what I've read about it, it's laughably overwrought misery porn. There's a very good review that I'm having a lot of trouble digging up, but the main thing I remember is that the main character gets raped by a pedophile priest who then teaches him to cut himself.

The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

derp posted:

curious how you came to that conclusion. people believed in all kinds of demons and creatures and etc in the 14th century.

That’s true. I guess I was thinking that the inclusion of Greek/Roman mythological animals wasn’t to be taken literally as a ‘Cerberus is real’ type of thing, but more as setting since a lot of classical historical figures are present. I guess when people still believed in people with dog heads at the time, anything’s possible. I got a cool William Blake book with some nice illustrations, but would you happen to have any recommendations on further reading/analysis?

derp
Jan 21, 2010

when i get up all i want to do is go to bed again

Lipstick Apathy

The North Tower posted:

That’s true. I guess I was thinking that the inclusion of Greek/Roman mythological animals wasn’t to be taken literally as a ‘Cerberus is real’ type of thing, but more as setting since a lot of classical historical figures are present. I guess when people still believed in people with dog heads at the time, anything’s possible. I got a cool William Blake book with some nice illustrations, but would you happen to have any recommendations on further reading/analysis?

me? i don't know crap about anything. I haven't even read paradiso yet. was mostly curious if you'd read some thing about Dante that let you on about what he did/didn't believe in, cause i'd be interested.

The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

derp posted:

me? i don't know crap about anything. I haven't even read paradiso yet. was mostly curious if you'd read some thing about Dante that let you on about what he did/didn't believe in, cause i'd be interested.

No, I made an assumption. Thanks for identifying that (Sincerely).

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat




Found the review I was looking for. I thought about editing it into the last post, but the thread's moving a bit fast for that.

quote:

There is an odd sentimentality lurking behind accolades like Greenwell’s. You wonder whether a novel written by a straight white man, one in which urban gay culture is at best sketchily described, in which male homosexuality is for the second time in that author’s work deeply entwined with pedophiliac abuse, in which the only traditional male–male relationship is relegated to a tertiary and semicomic stratum of the narrative, would be celebrated as “the great gay novel” and nominated for the Lambda Literary Award. If anything, you could argue that this female writer’s vision of male bonding revives a pre-Stonewall plot type in which gay characters are desexed, miserable, and eventually punished for finding happiness—a story that looks less like the expression of “queer” aesthetics than like the projection of a regressive and repressive cultural fantasy from the middle of the last century.

Edit: Turned out that I was actually thinking of a different article. I'm at work and not really able to focus on forum posts right now.

Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 9, 2020

Carly Gay Dead Son
Aug 27, 2007

Bonus.


Sham bam bamina! posted:

Dante believed in the afterlife, if not the specifics of his depiction; Tolkien did not believe in Middle-Earth.

Honestly I think Tolkien kinda did believe in Middle Earth; both as a hypothetical historical period that could have happened, and as a representation of his actual sociopolitical ideals/religious beliefs. I haven’t read Dante, but as I see it the only real difference between the two is that Tolkien wrote about where we come from and Dante wrote about where we’re going.


So what I’m saying is that Dante isn’t fantasy, he’s sci fi.

ulvir
Jan 2, 2005



jesus christ

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

BENIS


Sci-fi is a sub-genre of fantasy.

artism
Nov 22, 2011



Sorry to epic atheist guy. I’m glad this conversation proceeded and I feel more enlightened as a result of these posts

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The North Tower
Aug 20, 2007

You should throw it in the ocean.

artism posted:

Sorry to epic atheist guy. I’m glad this conversation proceeded and I feel more enlightened as a result of these posts

Thanks. I wasn’t trying to do some atheist sick burn, but I see how it could have come across that way. I genuinely was curious if they could be considered fantasy. If it’s ‘the author believes it’ then that’s good enough for me—I don’t care if people are religious unless they try to put it into law, and I won’t bring this up again.

If anything, Dante made me ‘get’ what some Catholics find so appealing about their religion in some way. Zooming toward the center, love, gave me some feelings. It would be really nice to be in that mindset more often.

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