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Series DD Funding posted:First off that's pseudo scientific nonsense: http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244 That particular link may be, there are definitely structural differences in the brain between men and women. This might be seen as some variety of -phobic, but physiological differences exist between genders and sexual dimorphism is a thing.
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May 22, 2015 18:35
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Series DD Funding posted:First off that's pseudo scientific nonsense: http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244 What words are you trying to put into my mouth? Are you really so disingenuous that you troll forums by posting questions to which you already have a concrete opinion, purely in order to contradict the answer you expect to be given? Totally ignore the word brain if you like. The point is just that gender identity (mind/brain/consciousness) is separate from physical body, which is again separate from cultural and social gender constructions.
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May 22, 2015 18:43
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ashgromnies posted:So you, personally, find "gender is a social construct" to be misleading? Is "gender roles are a social construct" a more appropriate way of saying it? It doesn't matter if gender is a social construct or not, really. Gender is a lot of things. Gender is partially, largely, how other people treat you. it is also how you feel about yourself, but to a much lesser degree. All of us, however, carry a representation of our society with us. A transgender person may identify as male because that's how they would like to be treated by society, as a man, or they might actually be resistant to the idea of any static gender, be it a role or a reality. It really doesn't matter. Transgeder people are just as unlikely to be explained by a single mechanism as anyone else. Just treat people as the gender they prefer to be treated. If this makes you uncomfortable, then figure out why and deal with it.
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May 22, 2015 19:05
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ashgromnies posted:Then what does "transgender" mean if gender is an oppressive system derived from society rather than anything inherent? Disclaimer that I've only had a bit of formal education on the subject, but quite a bit of informal education (my partner's degree is in sociology, women and gender studies, I hung out and conversed regularly with a sociology professor at school, and I could arguably be a part of the queer community.) I believe the first question is aiming at why someone who, ostensibly, has a more liberal view of gender and gender conformity would then willingly make themselves part of the commonly-held gender binary. As in, "Why would a transgender person adopt a different gender if gender is a socially constructed and restrictive system?" The "rather than anything inherent" line seems to betray the thought that gender could arguably be an inherent concept. In the modern understanding of gender, it is absolutely by definition socially constructed. Like, if you use the word "gender" in an academic setting, you are accepting the definition that it is not an inherent concept, but rather reflects society's attempt to take all the attributes and characteristics displayed in human interaction and divide them up, saying "These are acceptable for males, these for females, these for either." Common words used to illustrate this societal definition of gender are words like: tough, sensitive, ambitious, caring, emotional, logical, strong, dominant, submissive, capable, shallow, understanding, etc. There are plenty of studies done that ask people to take these and many other qualities and sort them into boxes. People will differ on where the qualities lie, and how rigidly they belong to one or the other. Different people groups can sometimes have vastly different associations. As an example, while in the United States, being a doctor is a powerful, high-class profession paid well and often occupied by men, in Russia most doctors are women, and the profession is not highly respected or paid. In the U.S., we perceive doctors as extremely intelligent, talented people who save lives and have to go through rigorous training. In Russia, the education requirements and costs are roughly the same, but being a doctor is a blue-collar "caring" vocation with maternalistic associations naturally suited to women, in their eyes. But the point is, people will consciously and subconsciously assign attributes to masculinity and femininity, and that forms the societal concept of gender. The obviously following point is, since people don't universally agree on exactly what boxes everything fits into, not everyone views gender the same way! There are certainly trends and more widely accepted facets, but nobody's boxes look the exact same. If a child was wearing a pink dress, hair ribbons and was playing with ponies, a large quantity of people would say those are feminine traits, and would probably identify that child as female. Obviously, that child's sex could in this case differ from the immediately displayed gender. If a man cried at his wedding, you'd be nearly guaranteed to find one person in the crowd who admired this emotional expression, and probably one who'd be thinking "What a girl." This illustrates the idea of "gender policing," the word for people enforcing their own beliefs about gender on others. Even though it's not this conscious, what's happening in this case is someone observes behavior they determine to be feminine (crying as a form of public emotional expression) being exhibited by someone they deem male, and they disagree with associating this aspect of GENDER with this person's SEX. But not everyone views things the same. Can a man cry in public? Can they cry at a sappy movie? Can they cry because someone said something mean? Can they cry because they're witnessing violence? Can they cry at their mother's funeral? Can they cry because their significant other broke up with them? If they don't cry in any of these situations, are they being stoic, or reserved, or restrained, or passionless, or apathetic? Do any of these situations reflect positively or negatively? Are some more or less acceptable for younger men, older men, veterans, politicians, artists, white collar workers? Hopefully, if you're uninitiated with the concept of gender, you're seeing that things are much less rigid and solidly defined then we typically like to think. That complexity is one reason why many people try really hard, and go through really difficult things, to be a part of one binary gender or the other. Sure, someone biologically male but feminine could choose to wear pink, paint their nails, not shave body hair, speak in an obviously masculine voice, and adopt all sorts of other characteristics that would present, to most, a contradictory gender expression. Maybe that'd be what feels the most genuine, the most comfortable. But the vast, vast majority of people would treat this person really differently than if they conformed to a more typical set of gender expressions. So in this way, the gender role is quite literally "oppressive" in that people's desires for self expression are being limited. Usually not by force (sometimes absolutely by force) but by societal pressure. Maybe the person undergoes SRS, maybe hormone therapy, maybe they just try to pass through particular grooming techniques and adopting certain mannerisms. Maybe they choose to just live as what most people would call an effeminate man. Maybe that person is still sexually attracted to women, or men. Maybe, some of these things are even different some days! And yeah, I bet a lot of people would love to just say "I'm genderfluid" and have nobody question that or treat them any differently, but that's not where our society is. We expect everyone to conform to binary gender roles to the point where even asking someone what gender they identify as in a personal setting is horribly taboo. So if you don't make the answer to that question extremely obvious, you're instantly met with stigma, criticism, bias and judgement. And I know that's way too many goddamn words, but I'm always like that with anything I talk about.
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May 22, 2015 19:21
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Jeza posted:What words are you trying to put into my mouth? Are you really so disingenuous that you troll forums by posting questions to which you already have a concrete opinion, purely in order to contradict the answer you expect to be given? No, I've just had this conversation before and done research. I don't understand what gender identity is supposed to be besides gender roles and specious psychological studies, neither of which seem to have anything to do with changing social gender or medical transition.
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May 22, 2015 19:27
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Series DD Funding posted:I don't understand what gender identity is supposed to be besides gender roles These seem like two extremely similar concepts, what in your mind are the defining differences between someone's role and identity? This sounds extremely existential. Role - "the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation" Identity - "the fact of being who or what a person or thing is" Like, I'm really confused as to what you mean when you say you don't see how changing one's social gender has anything to do with gender identity. Are you trying to say that if someone feels they are a particular gender, if they have a certain gender identity, it doesn't matter whether society in general or in specific views them as that gender?
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May 22, 2015 19:51
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Doulos posted:These seem like two extremely similar concepts, what in your mind are the defining differences between someone's role and identity? This sounds extremely existential. Most trans people I've talked to have said it's separate, yes. Like, it implies that you're transitioning because you like dresses or w/e.
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May 22, 2015 20:31
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Not a lot of detail in that statement, but I'm pretty sure you're using "you like dresses" as a reduction of the whole host of feminine attributes. If that's the case, "I'm transitioning to a woman because I prefer to express feminine traits" seems like a pretty straightforward cause and effect. My current identity (the gender I was assigned at birth, the gender people see me as pre-transition) does not line up with my preferred role (the characteristics, actions, etc. that are typically assigned to my preferred gender), so I'm going to do those things instead.
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May 22, 2015 21:07
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Learn some new things. Laugh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvBwWeG4Rpc
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May 22, 2015 21:34
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Bitter Mushroom posted:No it can't Yes it can.
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May 23, 2015 00:20
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Maybe in the future it'll be possible to change sex, but right now it is simply impossible to change chromosomes, or rewrite your DNA, or grow authentic genitals. Something that merely looks approximate isnt the genuine article 
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May 23, 2015 00:26
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Is there a big difference between Trans real world culture and trans tumblr culture? I knew a few trans people in prison and bought pills from one in the world and they were infinitely more laid back than what you see online.
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May 23, 2015 00:27
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EMILY BLUNTS posted:Learn some new things. Laugh. This is pretty cool. I thought I was going to skip through it but I ended up watching it all.
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May 23, 2015 00:38
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The Valuum posted:Is there a big difference between Trans real world culture and trans tumblr culture? I knew a few trans people in prison and bought pills from one in the world and they were infinitely more laid back than what you see online. Yeah basically. Not to say there aren't a lot of things to get angry about and very valid reasons to be angry, but you just need to live a life too, and so you can't just get around in the world being ANGRY all the time. The ones that manage this just do that, live as balanced a life as they can. The ones that don't, well. They've got tumblr...
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May 23, 2015 00:41
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Bitter Mushroom posted:Maybe in the future it'll be possible to change sex, but right now it is simply impossible to change chromosomes, or rewrite your DNA, or grow authentic genitals. Something that merely looks approximate isnt the genuine article XY women exist, dude, and SRS has progressed to a point that the result is exactly as functional as an infertile cis person.
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May 23, 2015 00:48
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EMILY BLUNTS posted:Yeah basically. Yeah I kind of figured that. I just always found it kind of interesting. I didn't know transexual was a faux paux word until recently but like in prison that would be a ridiculously progressive thing to say as would be using female pronouns. I had a lot of respect for the fact that they had to put up with tons of poo poo but still stood tall. Some younger kid called Savannah a human being and she effectively took his card by knocking multiple teeth out in front of the entire yard.
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May 23, 2015 01:13
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FROOOOOOOOG posted:XY women exist, dude, and SRS has progressed to a point that the result is exactly as functional as an infertile cis person. That's due to a genetic fuckup, not something that we deliberately created, or can meaningfully repeat. That's not the same thing.
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May 23, 2015 01:22
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Bitter Mushroom posted:Maybe in the future it'll be possible to change sex, but right now it is simply impossible to change chromosomes, or rewrite your DNA, or grow authentic genitals. Something that merely looks approximate isnt the genuine article This is it. You can modify your body however you want, and I'll call you whatever you want, but it doesn't make you that, it just means we're all pretending. Maybe in the future trans people can actually properly change sex (and that'd be cool for you because it's probably really difficult for you all), but at this moment in time it's like my friend identifying as "big-eared" by putting gauges in.
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May 23, 2015 01:45
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I do have to echo the idea that a transitioned person still has their original biological sex. There's actually very important reasons that we don't gloss over that, not to do with 'pretending' or any of that, but serious and genuine medical concerns that apply more to men, more to women, and in some areas, more specifically to men and women with the kind of hormone imbalances deliberately created to transition. SRS does not change chromosomes or how the body processes its endogenous and exogenous hormones. If we pretend it does, we actually do a disservice to vulnerable people by pretending they won't have their own unique sets of medical problems.
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May 23, 2015 04:01
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Who cares what sex someone is. You take everybody's sex on faith, you don't actually check their genitals. Oh no, maybe someone you thought was male-sexed is actually female-sexed. Oh wait, that doesn't actually matter in the loving least, so who gives a poo poo.
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May 23, 2015 05:09
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I mean I think he's just saying from a medical standpoint. I'm not very smart and I'm a felon and I think I get where he's coming from. That said I would use whatever pronouns someone wanted and such because of basic respect and I'm not very smart and I'm a felon.
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May 23, 2015 09:01
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The Valuum posted:I mean I think he's just saying from a medical standpoint. I'm not very smart and I'm a felon and I think I get where he's coming from. That said I would use whatever pronouns someone wanted and such because of basic respect and I'm not very smart and I'm a felon. Unless you are literally that person's doctor it also does not matter.
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May 23, 2015 09:55
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What 'sex' is is not one clear thing with strict lines. You can talk about chromosomal sex, hormonal sex or anatomical sex. XY women have already been mentioned in the thread. There you can see how hormones have a far greater effect on the behaviour of a body's cells than chromosomes do. What hormones are produced by the body is usually determined by chromosomes at development, but with hormone replacement therapy (HRT) we can override that. Chromosomes are not the end all of sex, and it's important to recognize that. In animals you can see species where this is not the case and chormosomes really do determine sex down to the cellular level. In rare cases you can see gynandromorph, who are literally one half male and one half female. In humans this would be impossible, as cellular behaviour is governed by hormones which are the same level throughout the entire body. There's a nice blogpost you can read about this here: link.
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May 23, 2015 11:33
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Loomer posted:I do have to echo the idea that a transitioned person still has their original biological sex. There's actually very important reasons that we don't gloss over that, not to do with 'pretending' or any of that, but serious and genuine medical concerns that apply more to men, more to women, and in some areas, more specifically to men and women with the kind of hormone imbalances deliberately created to transition. SRS does not change chromosomes or how the body processes its endogenous and exogenous hormones. If we pretend it does, we actually do a disservice to vulnerable people by pretending they won't have their own unique sets of medical problems. Nobody really glosses over this if they're serious or know what they're up to in making pretty big changes to their body chemistry. It's just not a daily topic for conversation either
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May 23, 2015 11:44
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Obdicut posted:Who cares what sex someone is. You take everybody's sex on faith, you don't actually check their genitals. Oh no, maybe someone you thought was male-sexed is actually female-sexed. Oh wait, that doesn't actually matter in the loving least, so who gives a poo poo. This isn't a direct reply to this so much as a return to an earlier topic of discussion, but how does everyone feel about the idea of changing your mind about wanting to have sex with someone because their genitals don't match the sex they present as / the corresponding gender they identify as? Do you figure anyone who likes women and isn't a conscious transphobe but wouldn't want to have sex with a penis-haver is just expressing latent homophobia/transphobia, or is that a valid preference?
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May 23, 2015 12:22
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HMS Boromir posted:This isn't a direct reply to this so much as a return to an earlier topic of discussion, but how does everyone feel about the idea of changing your mind about wanting to have sex with someone because their genitals don't match the sex they present as / the corresponding gender they identify as? Do you figure anyone who likes women and isn't a conscious transphobe but wouldn't want to have sex with a penis-haver is just expressing latent homophobia/transphobia, or is that a valid preference? It just shouldn't matter. A straight man should be down to choke on a dick and catch a load every once in a while, because some women have them.
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May 23, 2015 14:55
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HMS Boromir posted:This isn't a direct reply to this so much as a return to an earlier topic of discussion, but how does everyone feel about the idea of changing your mind about wanting to have sex with someone because their genitals don't match the sex they present as / the corresponding gender they identify as? Do you figure anyone who likes women and isn't a conscious transphobe but wouldn't want to have sex with a penis-haver is just expressing latent homophobia/transphobia, or is that a valid preference? Honestly, whatever. If someone isn't comfortable with it, or is put off by it, or just isn't attracted anymore once they know, that's their own business. I'm not going to have my feelings hurt if someone isn't down with me not having a penis. It's very likely anyway, though in my experience women trend more towards being okay with it than men. Just don't be a dick about it, be honest, and don't go on some "YOU TRICKED ME" tirade. And you know, don't murder the person. That's always a plus.
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May 23, 2015 15:01
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"Biological sex" is the gendering of biology, and gender is a socially constructed idea, like money, or time. Also gender expression/orientation/identity/roles are all separate things and it's totally possible (and culturally universal) for individuals to have any possible combination of them. Peace. Pretty good fucked around with this message at 15:30 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 15:27
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HMS Boromir posted:This isn't a direct reply to this so much as a return to an earlier topic of discussion, but how does everyone feel about the idea of changing your mind about wanting to have sex with someone because their genitals don't match the sex they present as / the corresponding gender they identify as? Do you figure anyone who likes women and isn't a conscious transphobe but wouldn't want to have sex with a penis-haver is just expressing latent homophobia/transphobia, or is that a valid preference? There isn't anything like an invalid or invalid premise. If you're not attracted to someone, you're not attracted to them. If you were attracted to them before the pants came off but then the revealed penis or lack thereof kills your arousal, that's 'valid' because that actually happens, it can't be not valid. It's not any different than losing your attraction to someone after they reveal anything else you didn't know. For instance if a girl isn't sexually into a dude because he's got a weird-shaped dick, or if she's into weird-shaped dicks and he's got a norm-boner, that's totally valid. It can still be really hurtful and you gotta be hella tactful but If you're really attracted to someone (of appropriate age and consentingness, of course) but you don't act on it because that arousal is disturbing to you, then it's really obviously some sort of phobia or something: you're disturbed by being attracted to this person. But then you've got to remember we live in a society with a hosed up repression of homosexuality, still, and straight guys are taught to fear signs of attrraction to men in themselves so it's kinda to be expected that people would be phobic about their own feelings if they're anywhere other than pegged out on the Kinsey Scale. There's an interesting cross-over here, the excellent book Dude, You're a Fag Masculinity and Sexuality in High School "http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520271487 What we've got these days is teenagers who would never call a gay guy 'fag' because that's hateful and mean, call each other 'fag' all the time, by which they mean 'acting not straight'. But they're actually fine with people who are gay, they have gay friends. They use 'fag' to police their own gender, and don't realize that's kinda hosed up.
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May 23, 2015 19:13
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Honestly, whatever. If someone isn't comfortable with it, or is put off by it, or just isn't attracted anymore once they know, that's their own business. I'm not going to have my feelings hurt if someone isn't down with me not having a penis. It's very likely anyway, though in my experience women trend more towards being okay with it than men. Just don't be a dick about it, be honest, and don't go on some "YOU TRICKED ME" tirade. And you know, don't murder the person. That's always a plus. That seems like a really dangerous thing to do dating a guy. That's crazy though people flip out about being "tricked" just because they talked. I saw some 60 minutes or dateline about how a young trans chick was hanging out with these dudes and was blowing them. Eventually at one of the parties she got into a fight and her shirt got torn off and everyone found out so they killed her. I mean, I'm seriously white trash and have more sense than those dudes. Are there a disproportionate amount of trans in the sex industry?
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May 23, 2015 19:22
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Obdicut posted:What we've got these days is teenagers who would never call a gay guy 'fag' because that's hateful and mean, call each other 'fag' all the time, by which they mean 'acting not straight'. But they're actually fine with people who are gay, they have gay friends. They use 'fag' to police their own gender, and don't realize that's kinda hosed up. It's a chicken-and-egg kind of thing. Being a whiny, timid jerk who makes life worse for everyone needs a new word for it that isn't sexist or homophobic. The guy who drives a convertible Beetle with a "COMMUNITY NAME 'Pace car'" sticker on the back isn't a person I don't ever want to deal with because I think he's behaving femininely, because I don't think that's how women behave as a rule, nor do I think he's gay because I don't think gay people are more likely to do something like that. He's just very likely to be an insufferable, sanctimonious jerk with no taste. All the pejoratives I've heard used to describe that sort of person are either homophobic or sexist, or reinforce existing gender roles -- fag, bitch, pansy, pussy -- when I think a lot of the offending behaviour is poo poo we ideally wouldn't have to put up with from either gender.
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May 23, 2015 19:31
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The Valuum posted:That seems like a really dangerous thing to do dating a guy. That's crazy though people flip out about being "tricked" just because they talked. I saw some 60 minutes or dateline about how a young trans chick was hanging out with these dudes and was blowing them. Eventually at one of the parties she got into a fight and her shirt got torn off and everyone found out so they killed her. It can be dangerous, yeah. I've known several trans people who just didn't date, because they didn't want to take the risk. I'm not sure on the amounts in the sex industry legally or illegally, but I know a disproportionate amount of GLBT people are represented among the homeless. So I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out in areas where that's the case, they're also disproportionally represented among illegal sex workers.
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May 23, 2015 19:43
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It can be dangerous, yeah. I've known several trans people who just didn't date, because they didn't want to take the risk. drat, man, that's lovely about the not dating. Why not use a dating site and be open about it? I mean you'd have to sift through tons of weird-os but that's online dating in general. I meant more so with porn, specifically web cam shows. It just seems like there's quite a few on chaturbate for how small of the population mtf makes up. Thanks for the answers, by the way. I really felt for the few I knew in prison along with the gay dudes. I try not to read tumblr though because it might make me change that opinion after some of the poo poo I see on there.
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May 23, 2015 19:50
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PT6A posted:It's a chicken-and-egg kind of thing. Being a whiny, timid jerk who makes life worse for everyone needs a new word for it that isn't sexist or homophobic. The guy who drives a convertible Beetle with a "COMMUNITY NAME 'Pace car'" sticker on the back isn't a person I don't ever want to deal with because I think he's behaving femininely, because I don't think that's how women behave as a rule, nor do I think he's gay because I don't think gay people are more likely to do something like that. He's just very likely to be an insufferable, sanctimonious jerk with no taste. All the pejoratives I've heard used to describe that sort of person are either homophobic or sexist, or reinforce existing gender roles -- fag, bitch, pansy, pussy -- when I think a lot of the offending behaviour is poo poo we ideally wouldn't have to put up with from either gender. I like 'shitbird' or 'chickenshit'. Let's start this movement.
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May 23, 2015 20:34
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Shitbird 2016 
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May 24, 2015 10:34
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confused cis people itt
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May 24, 2015 19:25
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jneen posted:confused cis people itt But the trans people have it all figured out for sure.
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May 24, 2015 19:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-olBQtpE9c Intermission. I really hope this thread answered all the OP's totally serious questions about how changing genders is just like getting a robot arm and also the first step towards getting to see what it's like to farm rice in China. Quad fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 20:36
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jneen posted:confused cis people itt Unlike: "I've got a dick but my BRAIN is FEEEMALE!!" 
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May 25, 2015 00:37
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Alex DeLarge posted:Unlike: we can fix this; we have the technology 
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May 25, 2015 01:25
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