The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR? - The Something Awful Forums

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

I feel like �hey Company 2, give me more money or maybe I�ll go sign with a company that isn�t giving me an offer yet� comes off pretty cringey. Trying to push Company 1 along seems like a much better idea.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2019 12:33

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 16:28

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Vegetable posted:

If you�re given unlimited leave and don�t consume more than the standard amount what are you doing

Just started a new job with unlimited, I�d been there for 1 month and then left for 2 weeks. I think I�m doing this right?

# ¿ Sep 27, 2019 05:13

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Weatherman posted:

Should I pick the range I want? Or just pick the lowest (comedy) option to force them to have no real idea of my expectation? Or something else? I'm really not sure what the best move is here.

My current job had almost that exact same thing on the application. I picked 120-140k, but never gave a number after that (the HR guy definitely referenced it, though, so my selection did not go unnoticed). Ended up with an 8% base bump over old job plus a good signing bonus and I�m liking the job okay so far! So uh... yeah, it�s lame but I dunno, I feel like I�m pleased with how it worked out for me. It sounds like you think it�d be a good arrangement, so I say pick one that�s putting a strong foot forward from a negotiating standpoint and hope they call you back.

# ¿ Oct 4, 2019 14:25

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Jordan7hm posted:

No you�re fine.

# ¿ Oct 22, 2019 00:33

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

hmmxkrazee posted:

This time I did some research and found the salaries were muuuuch higher so I basically settled for slightly lower than market/GD value when they asked for a number.

The real question is why did you give a number when they asked?!
Grats on getting more figgies, though.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2019 02:36

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Mouse Cadet posted:

Thank you all for you advice, I'll update you when I know more tomorrow.

Just to pile on with everyone else (in a nice way!), if they immediately reject you for negotiating then that places has a lot of other terrible issues. 99.9% chance the worst they say is �I�m sorry, we don�t have any room to increase� and you still just accept the initial offer.

Just remember, they offered because they think you�re good and want you to work for them! They might not want to jeopardize that just as much as you.

# ¿ Mar 2, 2020 02:54

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Lockback posted:

"Spend some time learning about market rates so you can effectively navigate a negotiation." That can be done in 30 minutes

I dunno, I feel like this thread has done a pretty good job of demonstrating that people aren�t very good at doing this. (I also don�t think I agree with how easy that is as a ~*general rule*~ given how much Glassdoor kinda sucks)

# ¿ Sep 14, 2020 17:13

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Lockback posted:

This is an argument that letting the other person name a number first is a bad move. If they are already low, starting the negotiation by letting them start with their low number is worse than starting at your higher number. If it's in the companies best interest to start the negotiation at the lowest number then you should try to not let that happen.

You�re not wrong, it�s just that people seem to be prone to saying a �higher number� that is still even lower than the low number the company would offer out of the gate.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2020 20:28

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Yeah, I�d say it is strongly dependent on to what degree this statement of yours is actually true vs. an assumption:

Magnetic North posted:

I knew enough to give him something high and we actually got it, so in this case I have no regrets.

But if you�re happy with the result then there�s no reason to fret about it one way or another, really.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2020 18:58

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

I am confident I am the best candidate for the job and I will deliver immense value. I will be happy to sign an offer today if it is $X.

Yeah, this. IME you can make the sweetener be something like �I�ll 100% sign if you do this� and not have to do the whole groveling thing.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2020 21:06

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Thanatosian posted:

Ooookaaayyyy... So, I'm expecting this offer to come in today, but also had a call with another job I'd been interviewing for that weren't as up-front about salary. We were talking next steps, and I said that I was almost certainly gonna accept this first offer, and they asked about a counter-offer, and I said "I mean... I would entertain one, but it would need to be six figures," figuring that was a gently caress-off number... and she said "let me talk to some people and get back to you."

She said I was their number one candidate, and head-and-shoulders above the others. Over a year of applying and interviewing with no offers, and then this in the same week.

get that bread

# ¿ Jan 15, 2021 03:44

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

thotsky posted:

So, I'm guessing "never say a number" also applies to counter-offers? Here, it seems like it's sort of normal for people to ask their current employer to match a new offer, rather than exceed it, sometimes even showing the offer to their boss. I've heard it justified as being good for both sides in that you get an immediate raise and you don't have to go through the stress of starting in a new job, but it does seem like it might be squandering your leverage somewhat.

Are counter-counter-offers bad form or a normal part of the process?

You�re about to get a lot of people telling you to never ever accept a counter offer.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2021 16:42

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

thotsky posted:

I understand why, in an American context, but having to train your replacement and being fired a few months down the road is virtually unheard of here. You can't fire someone for being too expensive, or being "disloyal" here. You'd have to make an effort to get that person to quit if that was your goal, which is risky with the strength of our unions.

Ah yeah, that definitely sounds like it�s not the usual case people around here talk about, at least.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2021 16:51

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

PIZZA.BAT posted:

Another thing to keep in mind is your opportunity cost. Two months at 20% higher salary comes out to 3%. So in reality you're not leaving 5% of your salary behind, it's 2%. So try to focus on that number instead and ask if it'd be worth the headache you'd be setting yourself up for.

I feel like this math really makes it click. It�s not even a 5% bonus given the opportunity cost on straight money, not to mention the risk/hassle of delaying your start with the new employer and whatever stress you�re incurring at your current one.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2021 20:09

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:

Thanks, I just did exactly this and they offered me $3k more, lmao, so I turned them down. Feels bad to have just given away my first opportunity in a year of applying to get out of my job, but I'm not taking a pay cut for it.

A different kind of success story, but a success story nonetheless!

# ¿ Feb 24, 2021 23:40

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

By "benefits" does that mean you have no idea about everything from monthly health care premiums to, like, 401k matching? Any annual bonuses? Because, yeah, there's a lot of room to increase your total comp that they're blackballing you on over the verbal yes.

If you're not literally desperate to get out of your current situation, I would really, really be inclined to politely refuse unless they're willing to cough up more info and probably also come up in salary quite a ways.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2021 05:35

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

stellers bae posted:

I�m not really looking to jump ship unless those offers get WAY better.

Just keep reminding yourself of this.

# ¿ Mar 12, 2021 16:48

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Zarin posted:

When are you chatting with the CEO? Somehow I have become deeply invested in how this story ends

I realize it's super stressful for you, but it's just so unusual that the mystery of it all has captivated me.

:same:

Mostly just lurking through this whole thing without anything to add, but I�m very curious to hear the details of this meeting. Goon speed, Parallelwoody.

# ¿ Mar 31, 2021 18:34

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

LochNessMonster posted:

If the VP of an industry leading company thinks you�re worth 154k a year to them you have to trust their judgment on it.

They know what they�re doing and determined that out of all candidates you were the best fit. You got this.

:hmmyes:

You got this, op. We�re all impostors.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2021 22:13

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Yeah I wouldn�t straight up out yourself as a two timer. They don�t really need to know more than that you have a firm offer from somewhere else. But definitely use other offers for forcing their hand on timelines and figgies.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2021 00:57

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Of course, we only know the manager�s side of what the candidate said that constituted �$X is acceptable�, so who knows, maybe the candidate actually said something vague like �I�m sure we can find a mutual agreement� and the company took that as �well they didn�t object to our cap so we�re good!�

But yeah defs don�t move the goalposts from what you�ve anchored to already (if the recounting is true then the candidate effectively said a number and thus hosed up).

e: a little beaten

# ¿ Apr 7, 2021 20:49

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

I still don�t blame the candidate for playing hardball on the offer, though. As an applicant there�s no way in hell you should take �we absolutely are capped at $X� as good faith, even if it turns out the manager/recruiter is being truthful. The �I won�t leave without $X+40%� probably would have softened immediately if the company countered with �$X+15%� instead of �no, $X, take it or leave it�.

There�s just a lot of �put yourself in the other person�s shoes� introspection that�s lacking in that post and being papered over with �but we were being honest and up front, why would they treat us this way?! :qq:

:qq:

�

# ¿ Apr 7, 2021 21:23

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Eric the Mauve posted:

gently caress's sake dude, no one has blamed the candidate for "playing hardball" and no one is going to. We are blaming the candidate for being flagrantly dishonest and wasting everyone's time. In exactly the same way and for exactly the same reasons we would push the button on a company that told applicants during interview "this position pays $100,000 a year" and then making an offer of $65,000 a year.

fourwood posted:

But yeah defs don�t move the goalposts from what you�ve anchored to already (if the recounting is true then the candidate effectively said a number and thus hosed up).

Miss me with your heat, dude.

# ¿ Apr 7, 2021 21:32

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

In my somewhat limited experience (I haven�t had that many jobs) recruiters definitely seem to do kind of a �ah I dunno if we can make that work, but I guess I can go grovel and see what they say� thing when you counter an offer.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2021 00:28

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Xguard86 posted:

The key thing to keep in mind is that most companies are designed like a Chinese room thought experiment. Process, layers, separation of concerns, incentive plans. These have evolved (or been designed) for the benefit of the company and to remove individual action.

So a recruiter could be totally honest in not knowing if a certain amount will work. HR means it when they're doing you that favor. They could also be full of poo poo but it's actually almost the same at a functional level.

I've had a much easier time in corporate work since I've realized this. Forgiving myself and others + not stressing out as much

Yeah, but even a recruiter who�s forced to act as the negotiation middle man could possibly respond with an upbeat �sure I�ll see what we can do� instead of pulling on their collar and sucking air in through their teeth. I mean fielding counters is their job but they don�t really act like they�ve ever gone back to their bosses to ask for more. It just gives it a feel of trying to make you feel bad for negotiating.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2021 05:02

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

jimmychoo posted:

haven't signed an offer letter yet, but the pay is fine tbh. am i chump if i don't negotiate higher anyway?

Yeah kinda. Worst* they can say is no.

* they can pull the offer but at that point you don�t want to work for such fuckheads

# ¿ Apr 18, 2021 19:51

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

jimmychoo posted:

ugh... they also gave me a really generous relocation offer which i appreciate. does that change things or no? lol.

�please do not think i am weak for not negotiating with you, i know my power but i am simply tired.�

At the end of the day if you�re happy then you�re happy.

But if you don�t ask for a little bump up on salary or maybe even starting bonus then there�s like a 99% chance you�re leaving money on the table.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2021 21:40

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

jimmychoo posted:

thanks all, no surprise that it worked! saved by the goons again. i only had the guts to ask for a 3% salary increase and that's what i got. not unhappy of course because their original offer was great.

Congrats on getting paid! :yotj:

:yotj:

You got more than you otherwise would have, have helped normalize people in general and women in particular negotiating for pay, and will be more comfortable with the doing more next time. Wins all around, if you ask me.

# ¿ Apr 19, 2021 21:56

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

u brexit ukip it posted:

Hi thread! I came cross a very interesting role at a company I am somewhat familiar with. The role is a further specialization of the work I am currently doing at a similar company, but a) I'm pretty sure I am underpaid and b) this company offers better benefits generally. Since I am otherwise happy where I am I have no urgent reason to leave. A little over three weeks after applying I get a call from their recruitment team asking to do a brief call with them, which was today. It was basically just confirming stuff on my CV and a few other details, but they were of course also asking about salary expectation. On that I took this thread's advice and said I couldn't give any clear indication without knowing more about the overall benefit package, and more details on the responsibilities of the role. It's now going to the hiring team so somewhere in the next few weeks I should have a proper interview. Stay tuned!

Congrats on having a pretty good BATNA and for winning the first round on number-saying! Goon speed.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2021 18:55

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

BonHair posted:

It shouldn't really affect his next salary though, right? Except in his mind where he'd be happy with a 10% increase instead of the 20% that would put him back to average.

I got two new jobs during the pandemic. First one I was an idiot about and accepted their first offer. Second one I found this thread and I feel like I did pretty well. But I never felt like the first affected the second in any real way.

Speaking to a broader point there does seem to be a lot of tension out there between two commonly held ideas of �if you don�t negotiate then you�re basically making sure you�re underpaid forever� and �your new job has no business knowing what you make at your current/old job�.

# ¿ May 14, 2021 20:24

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

stellers bae posted:

I'm not gonna take it at $180k. Working super hard for $180k vs. being laid back af at $144k isn't worth it to me.

I�m with Eric the Mauve on not having to justify yourself. If you won�t take it at $180 then try not to make them think the $180 door is still open. If you�re looking for anything to add you could go with �competitive with the market�, but really just �I�m excited to receive your offer, but I don�t think I�ll be able to make this work at $180. If you can come up to $215 I would be very happy to accept� or some poo poo.

# ¿ May 26, 2021 17:03

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

thotsky posted:

Managed to move them some more even though they said it was impossible. It's doubly "impossible" now, but I will take this as a win. Now I just want them to get an acceptable contract written up quickly so I can let my current employer know.

It was probably a mistake to open negotiations with my current employer before I was ready to sign somewhere else, but I felt like I needed the added security of a raise to have the guts to continue negotiations with the new place. My current employer wants my word that I will stay before they formally give me the raise even though I have their promise in writing, so they're bugging me.

I am saying that I am taking some time to consider the offers I have received, but they don't want me using their raise in negotiations with the other company, and to let them know who the other party is. I have told them I won't be sharing either parties information to the other until it becomes relevant and they have nothing to worry about, which is true because their raise couldn't really match the other party to begin with.

Anyway, the mess I made for myself aside, this was a success. Almost 24% up.

Get paid and also learn how to get paid more the next time around. Sounds like you�ve done both, so :yotj:

:yotj:

and grats on the new gig!

# ¿ May 27, 2021 21:49

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Guinness posted:

Big congrats, another thread success story!
The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: How to Succeed in Spite of Yourself

# ¿ Jun 2, 2021 20:44

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

downout posted:

I just got an offer 50.0% above my current salary and hopefully can negotiate for some more.

Hell yeah, get paid.

quote:

edit: and for a question, I want to negotiate the base salary to not leave anything at the table. I'm tempted to respond to the offer with a straight 11.0% addition to the base salary, but I'd also be quite happy with less than that. I feel like the thread title change is apropos and points to "just ask for it".

Never don�t negotiate.

# ¿ Jun 4, 2021 11:51

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

downout posted:

How very true. Quick update, I counter offered and got another 10% plus a sign on bonus pushing the final offer to +60% above my current compensation. This is going to be a very satisfying resignation.

:yotj:

Congrats!

# ¿ Jun 5, 2021 04:37

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Target Practice posted:

For the first time, I turned down a raise and asked a manager for more money. It was terrifying, but it feels empowering and really gives you that big dick energy.

Glowing three year review, title change, was presented with a 10k raise offer to 85k. Said thanks but no thanks, I'm looking at 90-95k. It was the end of the day so he's going back to HR and I assume the CEO.

I am probably shooting high, but gently caress it. If they come back with "take it or leave it", I will move on to vacation time, and start putting feelers out.

Now this is getting it done. An inspiration to us all.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2021 04:05

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Banzai 3 posted:

Thank you, negotiation thread. You allowed me to get another $9k on top of a job offer and comp package beyond my wildest expectations.

:hellyeah:

# ¿ Jun 16, 2021 22:27

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

priznat posted:

Hi all, I�m in the process of interviewing with a large company for basically my dream job and it�s going very well. I expect the offer to be quite good and fair, what are some good sites for looking up pay ranges? I know of glassdoor and levels.fyi and those give good ranges (especially levels). It�s a company with a lot of salary entries in there so confidence is high.

When negotiating is it good to break down the salary/RSUs and bonus all separately or do it as a total comp? Additionally I will need to relocate cities so what kind of stuff should I expect/ask for there? Do companies often help out with accommodations for a bit in short term rentals?

Also what are some good resources for finding good spots to live in new cities? I can check listings with zillow but it would be nice to get a feel for what neighbourhoods would be good etc. That is probably beyond the purview of this thread though

For relo, definitely just ask them for details about their package for your position's level. It all depends on the company and also your job level, i.e. entry level gets a whole lot less than managers, etc. They might just cut you a check for $X,000, they might reimburse you up to a certain amount for travel+lodging+meals, might put you in a hotel for a few weeks while you find housing, might buy you out of your current mortgage, might pay your real estate fees for finding a new place, they might fly you out on an entirely separate trip in advance of your start to find housing... Of course, sometimes you get nothing, good day, sir, but that's some bullshit. This all may or may not be negotiable. Maybe closer to not negotiable if it's a big company.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2021 22:13

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Spikes32 posted:

Well I got a no on the negotiation. The comp was already extremely competitive, and I don't have a better offer so I'm going to take it. Bummer but oh well. This is still nearly a 160% increase in my comp even after the cost of living increase.

A good example for others that they won�t pull the offer, they�ll just hold firm.

(If they pull the offer they�re fuckin assholes.)

Aso :yotj:

:yotj:

of course!

# ¿ Jul 22, 2021 20:28

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 16:28

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

TheParadigm posted:

Well, I heard back and the offer was pulled. Not sure if missed opportunity or dodged bullet.

Thanks for walking me through it.

Bullet dodged.

e: but also it sucks, sorry they pulled that poo poo on you :/

fourwood fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 1, 2021

# ¿ Sep 30, 2021 23:04

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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > The Negotiation Thread: What the fuck is wrong with HR?

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