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coathat posted:It’s pure noble savage myth. Africa is ancient and unchanging everything is the same as it has been since the dawn of time when Wakanda was created. The same tribes in the same place and only by interacting with the outside world can it change. I mean...I feel like this is kind of disingenuous, since it will be far more a matter of Wakanda changing the world than vice versa.
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Feb 25, 2018 16:14
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temple posted:the casino fight was cool. when okoye was kicked the dude off the balcony and swooped down with her red dress flying around was better than most other scenes featuring dudes with capes. Yeah, the actual human fight scenes were awesome, but anything that involved CGI guys in cat costumes felt too floaty. There's a fine line between "moves with grace and agility" and "feels weightless and removed from his surroundings" and, unfortunately, Black Panther falls on the wrong side of the line.
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Feb 26, 2018 21:32
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Shoren posted:I'm talking about black people being oppressed in loving 2018, not five or six hundred years ago. They're not victims of some wide-ranging conspiracy to stop them from being productive members of society. That's not a thing. Whatever else you're saying just stop pursuing this line of thought. Seriously, for your good and literally everyone else's, just stop.
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Feb 27, 2018 02:00
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garycoleisgod posted:Given this, maybe the people who thought Killmonger had a point weren't just making things up then? I don’t think anyone denied he had a point. The movie doesn’t deny he has a point. His methods are what make him a villain.
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Mar 2, 2018 02:32
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I’m not completely anti-violence, but when you start in with the “We kill them! We kill their children! We kill everyone who sides with them!” then you lose me.
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Mar 2, 2018 02:56
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garycoleisgod posted:I understand, but there's no way to use violence nicely. You decide violence is the answer? Women, children and bystanders are gonna cop it too, "clean" violence is a myth. Yeah. That’s revolution. That’s why 99% of your audience isn’t going to side with Killmonger.
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Mar 2, 2018 03:07
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garycoleisgod posted:But if you want change, what are the other options? As I said, we all know the outreach center ain't gonna do poo poo. I mean...I disagree with the premise that education and improvements to local infrastructure won’t have a measurable impact. The movie takes a fundamentally optimistic viewpoint to this.
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Mar 2, 2018 03:32
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I don’t think the answer to any of our society’s problems is to retreat into absolute cynicism and decry anything short of violent, bloody revolution. Yes, it’s unconscionable that police have been able to murder young black men and walk away relatively unscathed, but I don’t think all out war between black men and the police force will do anything to solve anything, and will only succeed in making the world a worse place. And that’s even with comic book superweapons.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:10
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KVeezy3 posted:Progress has always been a history of struggle, that will never change. It's cute that people here who reject liberalism are being painted as bloodthirsty cowards though, as if perpetuating liberalism doesn't result in violence. Progress is struggle, so let’s dive headfirst into horrible, bloody, violent revolution! Bring me the head of Barron Trump! Like, seriously, that’s Killmonger’s plan. And you’re advocating for it hard. I don’t care if you reject liberalism or whatever, that’s not what’s making me think you’re a bloodthirsty coward, it’s because you’re stridently defending the targeted murder of children.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:21
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KVeezy3 posted:It's absurd that this reactionary movie has warped your mind into thinking that those are the only two choices we have. I absolutely don’t think there are only two choices, but the kind of revolution you’re shilling for removes all but one.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:34
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KVeezy3 posted:I haven't advocated for anything, but feel free to keep telling me that I'm thirsty for child blood. Then what are you advocating here? Because this is the discussion we’re having; open war versus more moderate means. You thumb your nose at outreach centres and education and the like as ineffectual liberal nonsense, so what’s your answer?
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Mar 2, 2018 04:44
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KVeezy3 posted:This is not the discussion we're having, that is the discussion the movie Black Panther is having. I'm sure climate catastrophe will wait while we make moderate progress though. This is the Black Panther thread. We’re talking about Black Panther. Not fuckin’ climate change or whatever. Debate and Discussion is over that way.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:51
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YOLOsubmarine posted:It's a stupid false choice. The lament is that this is what the movie presents, that it lacks the imagination to provide anything more than a comforting reaffirmation of the same boring tropes about how education and more dialogue will fix things. I mean, education and dialogue help, but okay, what should T’Challa have done?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:08
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garycoleisgod posted:The answer I suggest is the end of capitalism. And how's T'Challa gonna just do that? In a 2.5 hour movie? And how would that even really fix anything?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:29
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YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s a wide breadth of possible options between “outreach center” and “kill all white people and bow to me,” and any of those would have been better than what got. These are all just basically variations on Killmonger's plan. quote:Or even just throw the CIA dude out on his rear end and use his UN speech denounce western democracies as shams built on colonialism and systemic oppression and impress upon them their need to fix poo poo now or Wakanda will use its magical space metal to start fixing them itself. Oh, and also don’t give them any loving technology. And this is basically holding the world hostage. These don't seem like particularly efficient or workable solutions at all. They mostly seem like ways for angry people to experience catharsis which, okay, that's good in the short term, won't really solve anything in the long term.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:35
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garycoleisgod posted:Yeah I suppose having a revolution in a film is pretty out there. Hey, what's this list of sci-fi films doing here? Elysium, Mad Max: Fury Road, Flash Gordon (1980), Conan the Destroyer, The Matrix Reloaded, Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi, V for Vendetta, Snowpiercer, Demolition Man, Tank Girl, Willow, Thor: Ragnarok ? I mean...those all present incredibly simple solutions, too. Most of them involve killing some figurehead, after which the evil empire crumbles. The real world is a lot more complicated. You're not gonna save it with some flashy revolution. If you kill Donald Trump, they don't just automatically flip the switch to "COMMUNISM". Is that how you wanted Black Panther to handle it? I'd much rather they presented change as a slow, gradual process involving hard work and perseverence.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:47
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YOLOsubmarine posted:See above. We’re in the long term now. Slow and steady has not won the race. How long should people have to wait for equality before it’s too long? The race isn’t over! Progress has, is, and will continue to be made. Violence won’t bring it faster, it’ll just undo what’s already been accomplished. quote:Also, the word “variations” is doing a lot of unearned work there. You’re basically saying that all violence is the same which doesn’t leave a lot of options open. Almost every possibility you listed leads to the same conclusion: all out war. You think you can just shoot the bad cops and everyone else will just be “Oh, okay, they were assholes, that’s cool”? You think an armed underground resistance doesn’t eventually lead to open conflict?
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Mar 2, 2018 06:06
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Also, the black incarceration rate is worse now than at basically any time since literal slavery. It’s about 4 times higher than it was in 1960. Is that progress? And how does encouraging black men to shoot police officers solve that? You might decrease the incarceration rate, but you’ll increase the mortality rate. Again, even with superweapons.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:21
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YOLOsubmarine posted:So you don’t think black people should defend themselves when cops try to murder them? How does that even work? Do you have your gun drawn any time a policeman stops you? This is the same line of thought that a lot of people use to try and put armed guards in schools and guns in teachers’ hands. quote:Also, you’ll find that the civil war greatly increased the mortality rate for many groups! Again, you’re convinced that armed conflict is inevitable. You seem to think a war is coming.
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Mar 2, 2018 06:33
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