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drewhead
Jun 22, 2002



Lord Hydronium posted:

Also it's been a while since I read CB, but I thought it wasn't so much a death wish as "I'd rather die than lose face". Murtry is all about holding onto whatever bit of power he has, at any cost to himself or others.

I think it was a "I'd rather die and maintain my companies claim on this planet than live and leave that claim in leagal limbo"

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drewhead
Jun 22, 2002



Phi230 posted:

People have killed for corporations in the past, even today, why don't you think somebody would die for one

Self preservation is innate. Killing someone else is an entirely different thing than killing yourself. Name someone now who chose to die for their corporation when they had readily available outs?

I'm saying it's hard for me to understand deviation from the innate without reasons which we wern't given. It wasn't believable to me.

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


I mean there's a big academic debate to be had about the genesis of national identity and its aftereffects. Maybe academics in 2700 in the expanse universe will look back in time and argue about the birth of corporate identity.

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

"TELL ME HOW TO GET PIG SEMEN OUT OF SUEDE" Club soda, fucktard.

drewhead posted:

Getting a Tattoo is a bit different than death. Self preservation is innate. "We'll give you a big raise posthumously"?
I'm down with the power trip, just not with the death wish. There are understandable reasons for that, but the books just didn't bother to fill out those motivations. That made the character unbelievable and frustrating, at least for me.

I have a Wikipedia page that's gonna blow your mind:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

As I remember it, Mutry goes into detail on his motivations several times. If the UN sees a corporate base with a bunch of corpses, the company gets the planet legally under the UN charter. On the other hand, if they find a wildcat settlement of miners who were able to make a delivery of goods: at best they share the planet, at worst the colonists own the whole planet outright.

Not only is he a corporate Nazi looking to kill and die for a business model, he actively understands this is what he is doing and plans to mark his place in history by making sure the company wins.


drewhead posted:

Self preservation is innate. Killing someone else is an entirely different thing than killing yourself. Name someone now who chose to die for their corporation when they had readily available outs?

I'm saying it's hard for me to understand deviation from the innate without reasons which we wern't given. It wasn't believable to me.

I mean, people kill themselves all of the time for myriad reasons. Mutry is just a future version of the rear end in a top hat cops at Standing Rock.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007



drewhead posted:

Self preservation is innate. Killing someone else is an entirely different thing than killing yourself. Name someone now who chose to die for their corporation when they had readily available outs?

I'm saying it's hard for me to understand deviation from the innate without reasons which we wern't given. It wasn't believable to me.
Yeah, this is totally Murtry's biggest issue. All his authoritarian abusive murderous bullshit is incredibly easy to believe. Why he was willing to die is way harder to understand.

I think most of it is that to him the most important thing is calling the shots, even to the end. He's got a justification, power, and a lot of implicit insecurities. He's not going to go along with having his power challenged, and having his power questioned makes him dig his heels in. He's so hosed that "You need to step aside or we'll all die" registers first as someone challenging his authority, and only secondarily as something that will kill him.

Self preservation is a thing, but so is self sacrifice, and despite the common depictions of self sacrifice, it doesn't have to be noble. Nationalism isn't innate and people die for that all the time. Yeah, family/clan/in-group attachments are innate and that can easily scale up to nationalism. Murtry evidently had enough of an attachment to his "duty" to his corporation/in-group that he could use that concept to justify never relinquishing power, no matter the cost.

It's honestly an interesting concept- respecting an institution to that degree. But I think even then it was presented as an excuse for him to do what he naturally wanted to do- namely hold on to his power at all costs.

It could have been presented better, and I'd expect the show to give him more understandably human emotions if it ever gets into it. The one thing the show does a lot better is take time to look at peoples motivations a bit more closely than the books ever did.

Edit: Actually I didn't read the above post closely and it's been a while since I read the book, but I'm now remembering that he did go into his "place in history" and stuff like that a fair bit actually. I still think his power trip was his true motivation, but he's got a compelling enough reason (for him at least) to not relinquish that power even in the face of death.

Eiba fucked around with this message at May 8, 2018 around 17:45

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

"TELL ME HOW TO GET PIG SEMEN OUT OF SUEDE" Club soda, fucktard.

I reread part of the crappiest book for you all:

Cibola Burn posted:


"I can't let that happen," Murtry said. His shrug was almost apoligetic. "By charter, this all belongs to RCE. You don't get to break it."
Holden shook his head in disbelief. "You really are crazy. If I don't break it, our ships fall out of the sky and we all die."
"Maybe. Maybe we die. Maybe we find some other way to stay alive. Either way, the RCE claim remains in force." Murtry waved one hand, not his gun hand, around the room. "All of this is worth trillions intact. We've made incredible advances in materials science just by looking at the rings. How much will working technology do for us? This is what we came here for, Captain. You don't get to decide what we do with it."
"Trillions," Holden said, unable to keep the disbelief out of his voice. "I've never seen a dead person spend money."
"Sure you have. They call it a foundation or a bequest. Happens all the time."
"This is all so you can make a bequest?"
Murtry's smile widened a millimeter.
"No," he said. "I came to conquer a new world. This is how you do that. I understand what I'm doing seems cruel and inflexible to you, but it's what the situation requires. The tools you're using here are the ones that let you get along once civilization takes over. They're the wrong shape for this work. I have no illusions about what it will take to carve out a place in this new frontier. It will take sacrifices, and it will take blood, and things we wouldn't do back where everything's regulated and controlled will have to happen here. You think we can do it with committee meetings and press releases."
"I wonder if this will sound like a compelling argument to the people dying in orbit right now."
"I'm sorry for them. I truly am. But they knew the risks when they got on board. And their deaths will have meaning, Murtry said.
"Meaning?"
"They are the sign that we didn't give up a centimeter. What we came for, we held to the last gasp. This isn't something humanity can do halfway, Captain. It never has been. Even Cortez burned his own ships."
Holden's laugh was half disbelief and half contempt. "What is it with you guys and worshiping mass murderers?"
Murtry frowned. A swirl of bright blue lights rose and fell between them like dust blowing down a desert street.
"How do you mean?" Murtry asked.
"A guy I once knew tried to justify his life choices to me by comparing himself to Gengis Khan."
"I take it you didn't find his argument compelling?" Murtry asked with a smirk.
"No," Holden said. "And then a friend of mine show him in the face."
"An ironic rebuttal to an argument about necessary violence."
"I thought so too, at the time."


I am honestly shocked at how well we all remembered his motivations...

Vord
Oct 27, 2007


Damnit. I can't not read Murtry's lines as Trump now.

R-Type
Oct 10, 2005


Vord posted:

Damnit. I can't not read Murtry's lines as Trump now.

Ugh. Well, I can't not read Murtry's lines as Obama now.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011


I'd like to toot my own horn for realizing that following up on the yo mama joke in the unspoiled thread with "she reaches out, she reaches out, she reaches out and sucks my balls" would technically be a spoiler and abstaining.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


I'm a bit sad about accidentally spoiling the big thing with an offhand joke instead of something that's actually funny.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007



bloom posted:

I'm a bit sad about accidentally spoiling the big thing with an offhand joke instead of something that's actually funny.
These things happen. You edited it quickly.

The real idiot/rear end in a top hat is spiderbyte who quoted you and then refused to edit the quote.

drewhead
Jun 22, 2002



I really need to reread CB, did Souther take a bullet in the book?

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

"TELL ME HOW TO GET PIG SEMEN OUT OF SUEDE" Club soda, fucktard.

drewhead posted:

I really need to reread CB, did Souther take a bullet in the book?

No?

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I was wondering if they might replace the Investigator with a different actor, but listening to the Expanse podcast they very strongly hinted it will be the correct dude. And it'll be this season.

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007



drewhead posted:

I really need to reread CB, did Souther take a bullet in the book?
I was intentionally not refreshing my memory so all this drama came as a shock, but now I can't tell if that's because I didn't remember or the show made things way more dramatic.

It was a god drat great scenario, so props to the TV show if it was totally original. What prompted the missiles to be launched in the books again?

nashona
May 8, 2014

Though she be but little, she is fierce


Grand Fromage posted:

I was wondering if they might replace the Investigator with a different actor, but listening to the Expanse podcast they very strongly hinted it will be the correct dude. And it'll be this season.

Some supporting evidence - I'll put in a spoiler tag just in case

Episode 8 is called "It reaches out" Plot synopsis: An old friend taunts Holden with the answers he seeks.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


I don't see them replacing Thomas Jane if they can get him back. Having a different actor would spoil the moment.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


It'd be a bad move, but realities of TV production and all meant there was always a possibility. They obviously haven't said anything since they want the surprise.

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


Someone remind me how the Agatha King gets infected. It's been a while since I read the books and can't remember. It does happen around this time, right?

I wonder how they'll do Holden's trip to the ship. Is it gonna be all blue and glowing like Eros, or will they take it in a more body horror direction like they did with that lab tech.

bloom fucked around with this message at May 10, 2018 around 06:56

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



bloom posted:

I wonder how they'll do Holden's trip to the ship. Is it gonna be all blue and glowing like Eros, or will they take it in a more body horror direction like they did with that lab tech.

“Body horror” is my bet.

Blue & glowing worked for Eros, but I don’t see it working here.

There is no reasoning with the horrors on Agatha King.

poo poo is hosed up. Holden needs to go in there and be a big drat hero.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







bloom posted:

Someone remind me how the Agatha King gets infected. It's been a while since I read the books and can't remember. It does happen around this time, right?

I wonder how they'll do Holden's trip to the ship. Is it gonna be all blue and glowing like Eros, or will they take it in a more body horror direction like they did with that lab tech.

Accidentally got hit with one of the monster missiles and the payload broke out and started barfing all over everything, iirc.

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!


Yeah I'm looking forward to the Agatha King raid that was super important for reasons that I forget now, and I hope that Cotyar takes the place of the random low-level soldier dude that Holden met there in the books, especially since they basically did that with the low-level soldier guy that Cotyar killed in the dropship. I'm even up for him not just kind of resigning himself to his fate like the soldier did and trying to do something insane to make it out of there alive even if it means getting Holden killed, and maybe when he makes his move Holden's ready for it and that's growth on Holden's end too since he's finally ready for people to try to jump him or to do desperate stuff when they're in super high stress situations.

Cotyar's been super cool but him staying behind and making sure the ship blows itself up or something would be a solid end to his arc on the show and tick us nicely into what is just about the right amount of character deaths for this whole Mao/Errinwright arc.

It's also real nifty that they brought up Filip already, gives me real hope that we'll see more of the lead-up to that big Belter revolution.

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

There all is aching


There's a rumor that they replaced Thomas Jane's Ghost Miller with Elias Toufexas' Ghost Pudgy Adam Jenson

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.


NowonSA posted:

Yeah I'm looking forward to the Agatha King raid that was super important for reasons that I forget now,

Can someone refresh my memory on this, too? I thought the name sounded familiar, but I just remember a ship that was infected with protomolecule somehow and for some reason they couldn't just blow it up, and Holden went in alone and did a thing.

I thought it happened in one of the later books, though.

Phi230
Feb 2, 2016

There all is aching


They had to get a maguffin so they could go on the spooky ghost ship

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


Phi230 posted:

There's a rumor that they replaced Thomas Jane's Ghost Miller with Elias Toufexas' Ghost Pudgy Adam Jenson

It's Thomas Jane but instead of saying "we need to talk" the entire Ghostbuster 2016 movie plays when he opens his mouth.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Phenotype posted:

Can someone refresh my memory on this, too? I thought the name sounded familiar, but I just remember a ship that was infected with protomolecule somehow and for some reason they couldn't just blow it up, and Holden went in alone and did a thing.

I thought it happened in one of the later books, though.

The ship got hit accidentally by one of the missiles containing a protomonster when they launched off Io and it barfed all over everything. Now there's a MacGuffin kill code or whatever on the King that will stop all the protomolecule missiles so Holden has to trek through the spooky body horror ship to find it and save the system.

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at May 10, 2018 around 16:43

zeal
Sep 11, 2008

Z E A L!





if there's ghosts and mechacrabs (and ghost-possessed mechacrabs) in this series i hope there's gremlins and ghouls too

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


Crazycryodude posted:

Now there's a MacGuffin kill code or whatever on the King that will stop all the protomolecule missiles so Holden has to trek through the spooky body horror ship to find it and save the system.

At least the show set this up with Mao transferring control of the missiles to Nguyen.

ATP_Power
Jun 12, 2010

The mind of man may be a curse, but what would I be without it?


Specifically Holden needs to get to the bridge and Nguyen because he has launch control of the missiles, and can turn the transponders for the missiles on so that they can be tracked and destroyed.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011


I can't see how you sign an actor for Miller without locking them into a multi-season commitment.

ATP_Power
Jun 12, 2010

The mind of man may be a curse, but what would I be without it?


The show's opening credits spoiling itself:

(check the location listed in the top right)

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


Does the Behemoth ever just loving ruin someone's day? I thought at first when he sent drummer to retrieve it it was gonna be used as just another habitat on the belt but it can't hold that many people so retrofitting it as a space battleship seems to make more sense anyway. Besides, I guess it could pull double duty as an extremely well armed colony anyway.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







Milo and POTUS posted:

Does the Behemoth ever just loving ruin someone's day? I thought at first when he sent drummer to retrieve it it was gonna be used as just another habitat on the belt but it can't hold that many people so retrofitting it as a space battleship seems to make more sense anyway. Besides, I guess it could pull double duty as an extremely well armed colony anyway.

Nah it's an utter trash garbo battleship, it was built to be a civilian colony vessel. It just fundamentally doesn't have the structural integrity or design features needed to be an effective warship. It's big, slow, and flimsy, about the best I can imagine doing with it is turning it into some kind of glass cannon missile battleship that survives by staying far away and never getting shot back at, because it does have lots of surface area to put launchers on/interior space to convert to magazines. Even then it's slow and hard to maneuver so it would presumably just get chased down and killed by FACs/destroyers. But I would never in a trillion years want to take it into an actual fleet action gun battle like Fred Johnson is refitting it to. There are multiple points in the books where various engineers and whatnot express concern that firing the railguns they welded on might just tear them off their mounts, and there's zero chance it can actually take any meaningful amount of punishment.

Its real value is as a symbol. Hey, look, the Belt has big-rear end ships covered in guns too! We're big and strong and you can't gently caress with us anymore! We have a right to come slap our dicks on the table now! Anybody in-universe who knows the first thing about naval engineering or space warfare has got to see it would be useless as an actual military asset, but that's not what Fred/the OPA want to use it for anyways. It's a political symbol.

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at May 10, 2018 around 20:31

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?


So making it a super well armed port deep in the belt would probably have been a better idea anyway lol. Suck on that, cutty.

Toxic Fart Syndrome
Jul 2, 2006

"TELL ME HOW TO GET PIG SEMEN OUT OF SUEDE" Club soda, fucktard.

Milo and POTUS posted:

So making it a super well armed port deep in the belt would probably have been a better idea anyway lol. Suck on that, cutty.

Just, you know...not in the belt.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?







It has built-in spin gravity that can be set to whatever level you want, a lot of the drum's interior is set up for farmland (real human food, no more mushroom paste!), the water and air recyclers are designed to last forever and serve a population of thousands, and it's got enough cargo space to hold all the supplies you need to build a colony from scratch that could be converted to warehouses/other storage.

It would indeed make a pretty good port/waystation... if only they had somewhere useful to put it....

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.


If you're really interested in what happens with it, you're actually not too far off (and then also way off base because of lack of future knowledge). They do end up using it as the "flagship" of the Belter fleet for a hot minute, but are basically terrified of actually having to use it in combat because it'll fall apart -- there's a bit where Drummer says that if they actually fire the railguns they've mounted, there's a chance they'll just tear loose and damage the ship. Extraspoilery: They take it through the ring gate in order to establish a Belter presence there, since Mars (and Earth?) had sent ships through after the Roci, and end up turning it into a space station anchored in ringspace to help with colonization through the rings and give Belters a purpose since their niche was disappearing. It ends up being pretty well suited to the task, it was a poo poo warship but it was designed to keep a bunch of Mormons alive for a hundred years on their voyage, so it has really good recycling systems and a rotating core to provide gravity.

e: I see I was the only one to actually give him an explicit answer, but c'mon, this is the spoiler thread. I'm not tiptoeing around stuff here, too.

Phenotype fucked around with this message at May 10, 2018 around 20:49

bloom
Feb 25, 2017

YOSPOS


http://deadline.com/2018/05/the-exp...ped-1202388026/

quote:

The cancellation decision by Syfy is said to be linked to the nature of its agreement for the series, which only gives the cable network first-run linear rights in the US. That puts an extraordinary amount of emphasis on live, linear viewing which is inherently challenging for sci-fi/genre series which tend to draw the lion share of their audiences from digital/streaming.

Someone else better pick it up. I swear to god if we lose this show because of tv execs being old morons.

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Chard
Aug 24, 2010



Doctor Rope

Has there ever been a TV series based on a non-complete book series that didn't eventually spiral into its own rear end? I can't think of one, hoped this might be an exception.

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