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 Observer Thread Situation quote:The government plan to seize the Kurils has reached new levels of tension and drama. The Russians have been pulling out all the stops to reinforce the islands, the United States has condemned us and blocked off some of our most modern units, and we as a "self-defense force", remain fundamentally unprepared for such a conflict. Some of it may be due to our own soldiers deliberately slow-walking the preparations, but a simple lack of parts and experience is causing more delays. Still, we press on. Enemy Forces quote:The Russians have assembled a makeshift convoy of ten civilian ferries at Petropavlovsk that has been spotted rounding the Kamchatka Peninsula. They have deployed radars and anti-ship missiles on as many of the minor islands as possible. Heavy SAMs have been deployed on both Sakahlin and both islands, but appear to be under strict ROEs. Friendly Forces quote:For such an important mission, we have very few assets available. The reasons are mainly political and strategic. Politically, we have the problem of: That being said, the available forces consist of:  Squadron #1 F-15J (15 Aircraft) AA Loadout Squadron #2 F-15J (15 Aircraft) AA Loadout  Squadron #1 F-4E (8 Aircraft) ASM Loadout  JASDF AEW Squadron E-767(3 Aircraft)  P-3C Orion (10 Aircraft) ASW Loadout but able to refit to ASM Loadout  DE 229 Abukuma & DE Tone  DD 122 Hatsuyuki Also includes a Seahawk Helicopter with ASW loadout. http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/2058/  Kokuryu, Unryu, Soryu, Hakoryu  Makishio, Mochisio, Setoshio J/FPS-4 Radars, SAM-4 Chu SAM, Patriot Bty's Execution Press the attack on the convoy, and prepare for the worst. The convoy must be destroyed completely, because Kunashir and Iturup must both be taken in their entirety. Leaving a single patch of land in Russian hands when the inevitable ceasefire comes will mean they can play the frozen-conflict card for as long as they want. The length it will take for the convoy to approach the islands depends. It may take several days if they prefer a cautious approach, but little more than 24 hours if the Russians simply sprint for the islands. So be prepared to not have much time. We have 72 hours from the start of the scenario to protect the target zone. After that point the landing craft will have crossed the straits and secured the objective. Please claim your command. Please note there are multiple subs for some of the classes. You can claim the seat of an individual aircraft but the command will go to the wing commander. If we have more demand than we have wings, we may break the command into multiples. If you prefer a unit name, please propose and folks will vote.  PLANNING MAP : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1X0Tx4dWpJUbs_xsW9X4DAVIOjpRs3Raj&usp=sharing Yooper fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 19:50
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I volunteer to take the P-3 Wing *Edit* Also Yooper, where are our forces currently located/which bases are we working out of to protect the islands? Jimmy4400nav fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 21:25
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As someone with no operational experience whatsoever I offer myself as possible F-15 Squadron commander.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:09
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Jimmy4400nav posted:I volunteer to take the P-3 Wing F-4's are at the same base as the F-15's.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:12
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Reporting for Command of the F-4 Squadron Reminds me of the old days playing Harpoon on my Grandfather's Mac.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:23
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Yooper posted:
Awesome! Thank you!
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Oct 14, 2018 22:32
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If nobody else wants to lay claim to it, I think I'd like to be operational theater command. Question to Yooper: The mission brief says that the Russian convoy is made of TUFTed civilian ships. What is the estimated presence of actual civilian aircraft and vessels in the area? Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 22:32
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Rough back of the napkin analysis of our force composition: F-15's: Our bread and butter right here, the operation will live and die depending on how well we are able to utilize and deploy these guys. Their AAM-4's are fairly comparable to an American AIM-120 so depending on how many more advanced planes the Russians can scramble we'll probably have the qualitative edge here. So long as we can hold the sky we'll be able to hold the islands, we have enough aerial ASuW assets that if we control the skies and the passages in, we'll win. E-767: Our other most critical asset, we'll want one in the sky at all times to keep an eyes on things. again, if we can keep them alive, they'll give us a huge heads up on where Russian aviation assets are and where they're planning on striking. Combine with our F-15's BVR capabilities this can help us lock down the skies. F-4EJ Phantom II Kai: Bomb-trucks. Even though they can carry Sparrows, I wouldn't put much stock in using them to down modern Flankers and Fulcrums, even the older Foxhounds might be fine against them. Still its missiles we can use if need be. Their main utility will be carrying their ASM-2's and acting as a primary supporting asset for destroying enemy ships. P-3: My bois! These guys have a number of uses. They can act as radar/ELINT platforms to extend the eyes of our assets, they can act as a platform to launch ASuW strikes on surface assets, and with our sonobouys we can help locate enemy subs. For the purposes of this operation, I would recommend keeping one P-3 on station outfitted for surface strike acting also as a Radar/ELINT extended while we use the rest for ASW. The Type 91 missile we carry has a shorter range than the Phantoms ASM-2 and beign subsonic, our missile will have limited use against enemy warships if they have missile defence. Soryu-Class: We have 4 Soryu diesel-electric attack submarines, these are the most current JMSDF attack submarines currently in the arsenal, armed with torpedoes and harpoons for attack. They have a number of technological innovations for Air-Independent propulsion including the addition of Sterling Engines and advanced Lithium-Ion batteries which will let them stay submerged longer and help them stay quieter. In theory, they could stay submerged for the entirety of this operation and still have power to spare. Out of our subs, these will be our best weapon. Oyashio-Class The generation preceding the Soryu, these were primarily built around their sonar sensor suites. While older, the still have a number of important capabilities which can make them potent assets for use out in the field. Surface Ships: The Hatsuyuki's helicopter will be helpful for extending ASW prosecutions, but in general, the limited capabilities of our surface ships for ASW and ASuW will make them of limited use in this operation, especially considering their air defense systems limited range. In general we're not in a bad spot right now, though it will be tight. Our F-15's will need to maintain control of the sky while we hunt for the Russian surface assets. Keeping our 767's alive will be the top priority, without them, we're toast. For the operation I recommend we define how far out from the island we want our engagement zones to be and then extend that out based on our weapon ranges. We have the advantage in that we know where their assets will be trying to deploy to, so we can try and create funnels to vector them into kill zones. Jimmy4400nav fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Oct 14, 2018 |
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Oct 14, 2018 23:03
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Davin Valkri posted:If nobody else wants to lay claim to it, I think I'd like to be operational theater command. AOO is clear of civilian vessels and traffic.
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Oct 14, 2018 23:19
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Is the sortie limit per squadron or per individual fighter?
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Oct 15, 2018 00:29
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That's a pretty good assessment, Jimmy. I'd like to add a few notes of my own:Jimmy4400nav posted:F-15's: Our bread and butter right here, the operation will live and die depending on how well we are able to utilize and deploy these guys. Their AAM-4's are fairly comparable to an American AIM-120 so depending on how many more advanced planes the Russians can scramble we'll probably have the qualitative edge here. So long as we can hold the sky we'll be able to hold the islands, we have enough aerial ASuW assets that if we control the skies and the passages in, we'll win. Note that one thing we don't have (and that Japan doesn't want, I think) is tankers. Any F-15s we send up are functionally committed--if they're recalled they have to go through the 20 hour wait period to get back in the air. So we can't just send all 30 Eagles up to alpha-strike the enemy planes. Jimmy4400nav posted:E-767: Our other most critical asset, we'll want one in the sky at all times to keep an eyes on things. again, if we can keep them alive, they'll give us a huge heads up on where Russian aviation assets are and where they're planning on striking. Combine with our F-15's BVR capabilities this can help us lock down the skies. This one has a long enough radar range that we should be able to keep it over friendly skies and still get decent radar coverage. We get three, so it's blatantly made for the 1/3rd rule. Jimmy4400nav posted:F-4EJ Phantom II Kai: Bomb-trucks. Even though they can carry Sparrows, I wouldn't put much stock in using them to down modern Flankers and Fulcrums, even the older Foxhounds might be fine against them. Still its missiles we can use if need be. Their main utility will be carrying their ASM-2's and acting as a primary supporting asset for destroying enemy ships. These suckers are old, and the missiles they carry are also old. Gonna need to coordinate a launch with other assets to make it work, and possibly just sortie them all in a body when the convoy is found. Jimmy4400nav posted:P-3: My bois! These guys have a number of uses. They can act as radar/ELINT platforms to extend the eyes of our assets, they can act as a platform to launch ASuW strikes on surface assets, and with our sonobouys we can help locate enemy subs. For the purposes of this operation, I would recommend keeping one P-3 on station outfitted for surface strike acting also as a Radar/ELINT extended while we use the rest for ASW. The Type 91 missile we carry has a shorter range than the Phantoms ASM-2 and beign subsonic, our missile will have limited use against enemy warships if they have missile defence. Remember that they're starting as ASW platforms. If you want to convert them to anti-shipping work they'll be down for some time. Jimmy4400nav posted:Soryu-Class: We have 4 Soryu diesel-electric attack submarines, these are the most current JMSDF attack submarines currently in the arsenal, armed with torpedoes and harpoons for attack. They have a number of technological innovations for Air-Independent propulsion including the addition of Sterling Engines and advanced Lithium-Ion batteries which will let them stay submerged longer and help them stay quieter. In theory, they could stay submerged for the entirety of this operation and still have power to spare. Out of our subs, these will be our best weapon. Bear in mind that the torpedoes this thing has a tiny loving range--11.1 km, says the wiki! You'll have to get really close to use them against ships or subs. Jimmy4400nav posted:Oyashio-Class The generation preceding the Soryu, these were primarily built around their sonar sensor suites. While older, the still have a number of important capabilities which can make them potent assets for use out in the field. Same with the Soryus. Jimmy4400nav posted:Surface Ships: The Hatsuyuki's helicopter will be helpful for extending ASW prosecutions, but in general, the limited capabilities of our surface ships for ASW and ASuW will make them of limited use in this operation, especially considering their air defense systems limited range. Recommend that we don't send these guys past Iturup--per the briefing, the Russians have anti-ship missile launchers and radars on a lot of the Kurils. Jimmy4400nav posted:In general we're not in a bad spot right now, though it will be tight. Our F-15's will need to maintain control of the sky while we hunt for the Russian surface assets. Keeping our 767's alive will be the top priority, without them, we're toast. For the operation I recommend we define how far out from the island we want our engagement zones to be and then extend that out based on our weapon ranges. We have the advantage in that we know where their assets will be trying to deploy to, so we can try and create funnels to vector them into kill zones. I updated Yooper's map to show the expected enemy threat vectors, as well as a prediction of where the convoy is going to come from. Remember, they loaded at Petropavlovsk, and are heading for Kunashir and Iturup. EDIT: BAD MAP, look further down! Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 01:15
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I'll run silent and run deep with Soryu. If no one claims her sisters, I'll take the whole wolfpack.
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Oct 15, 2018 05:57
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I would like the AEW squadron. Eyes and ears of the fleet!
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Oct 15, 2018 08:35
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Val Helmethead posted:Is the sortie limit per squadron or per individual fighter? Per individual unit. Once they go up it'll take ground crews 20 hours to get them back running again.
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Oct 15, 2018 13:37
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I will take a diesel-electric boat. I kind of assume that the Russians will want to get under their ASuW and SAM umbrellas with the convoy as quickly as possible. There are probably advantages to heading east of the Kuriles, then south, then west in to the umbrella since that's not the expected approach vector. One big convoy is easier to defend than piecemeal. I assume that the Russians will try to disguise approaches using different packages of surface ships and perhaps some decoys. I think we should use a couple submarines as pickets pushed forward towards Petropavlovsk - if we can locate the main body of the convoy and the direction of travel early, that allows us to better plan significant strike packages. We will also want a wolfpack of at least a couple of submarines - the Oyashios are probably fine for this - to be able to hit the convoy from multiple directions, preferably while we simultaneously send a whole squadron of Phantoms at it after we do a sweep with the Eagles. Not sure the value of the surface ships either other than as bait. maybe dance them around Iturup trying to draw out Russian submarines?
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Oct 15, 2018 14:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I will take a diesel-electric boat. That's not a bad assessment, but the briefing calls out the Russian available forces as roughly similar to ours--they might not HAVE enough surface ships to make a decent decoy. ("One modern frigate and a number of Cold War surplus corvettes"--I don't see how to make a decoy for a convoy of 10 ships with that.) Also, per the briefing, Iturup, Kunashir, and Kamchatka (the peninsula with Yelivozo air base) have "heavy SAMs" with "restricted ROEs", so the only really safe way to probe with the Eagles is east, then north. In addition, the minor islands past Iturup have the AShM launchers, so pushing the surface fleet out that far...may not be wise.
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Oct 15, 2018 15:18
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Related to all this - how Loud do we want to go with our individual unit's Radar / Sonar? The Russians are likely going to come in quiet with their convoy. But we don't exactly want to be like "Hey guys! Here's those Submarines / F-15s you are worried about."
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Oct 15, 2018 15:35
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I'll take the Oyashio Sub Setoshio for now, and maybe the group if no one else claims them. Maybe a mix of both loud and quiet? Send some out quick to spook them and have some hidden assets for recon and maybe an ambush?
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Oct 15, 2018 16:20
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I'll claim the Hatsuyuki destroyer, assuming this will be a last line of defense use ship if the convoy makes it past our subs. Will focus on using the Seahawk for ASW. Popete fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 18:07
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The main thread mentions that the Russians have access to satellites. I don't know what kind or how often they'll overfly, but I'd imagine that we'll have to assume that they'll get semi-regular updates on the position of our ships and planes. The F-15s, at least, can definitely go quiet with the E-767s around. I'm not sure about the rest.
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Oct 15, 2018 18:40
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  Entries in yellow are boring stuff the group can assign or theater commander. Entries in green should have a commander, or I'll assign them to either Stairmaster or Forever BWFC. The other DE/DD can be driven by Popete unless we get more bodies.
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Oct 15, 2018 23:56
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IGNORE MY PRIOR MAP, I AM A MORON WHO CANNOT READ A MAP. HERE IS THE MOST CURRENT THREAT ASSESSMENT, AS WELL AS A BLANK MAP OF THE FULL THEATER FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION.  Per the original map, each blue marker is ~100 miles apart, and the two black lines radiating out of the airbases in the southwest, nearest us, are 130 miles long.
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Oct 16, 2018 01:40
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I'll claim F-15J #2
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Oct 16, 2018 01:45
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 Captain Bacarruda, CO Soryu "I think the Russians have three courses of action they can follow. Course of Action 1 - Speed: they simply blitz for the islands as fast as possible. This gives us fewer chances to attack them and it makes it easier for them to provide continuous air cover, since they have to generate fewer sorties. It also means they're Course of Action 2 - Patience: they go slowly and carefully towards the islands. This makes their ASW more effective, since slower-moving ships and subs can use passive sonar much better. If they're waiting on submarine reinforcements, they might take things slow and wait for them to arrive. This would strain their airpower, since they'd have to provide air cover for much longer. If the convoy hugs the shallow waters around the Kurils, it would make life harder for our submarines, but it could also open up some interesting ambush chances. Course of Action 3 - Distance: they take a wide detour to the west into the Sea of Okhotsk to get closer to their air cover on Sakhalin. On the last leg, they could stick to the shallower water along Sakhalin to stymie our submarines. But making a long dogleg like that would take up time and leave them vulnerable to an attack while the crossing the Sea of Okhotsk. How should we respond? No matter what we do. I suggest we employ classic wolfpack tactics. Use the Oyashi class submarines as pickets, with help from the E-767 and the P-3s. When one of them spots the Russians, it shadows, while the other subs move to cutoff the convoy. Then, with the with the Soryu-class submarines, all seven of our submarines and the F-4Es (with F-15J cover) launch a massive, coordinated Harpoon and ASM-2 attack on the convoy. We can fire 44 anti-shipping missiles in one alpha strike with our submarines and our Phantoms. That should be enough to sink the ~12 ships in the convoy. Use the P-3s to cover the flanks of our submarines are they make their attack." next slide "The biggest threats to my submarines are the Russian's own submarines. Recent estimates suggest the Russian Pacific Fleet has five Oscar-class cruise submarines. On top of their usual torps, these have anti-submarine cruise missiles which can drop a homing torpedo on our heads from up to 100km away. Similar story with their five Akula-class submarines. Their seven Kilo-class boats aren't nuclear boats or torpedo-missile chuckers like the others, they're diesel-electric boats with torpedoes. But they're drat quiet bastards. Worst of all is the new Yasen-class boat, Severodvinsk. All the Russians' greatest sensors and other toys in a fast nuclear attack boat with torps and torp-dropping cruise missiles. And that's not counting what the Russians may have rushed in from their Atlantic Fleets... I doubt we'll be facing every submarine the Russians have in the East, but we're going to probably be outnumbered two-to-one underwater. That's why I think we've got to concentrate our sub forces for a massed attack at just the right moment." Bacarruda fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 02:19
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I'm late to the party sadly and I'd love either plane or a submarine but am happy to settle for a boat. I love the F-4 but am happy to take an AEW or a DE229.
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Oct 16, 2018 05:15
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Taintrunner posted:I'm late to the party sadly and I'd love either plane or a submarine but am happy to settle for a boat. I love the F-4 but am happy to take an AEW or a DE229. Probably best for you to take the AEW birds. I think it'd be better for the surface ships to operate as a single SAG, but that might just be my own instincts butting in over the mission. I think we're good for people now? I'll try to have an operating outline up by tomorrow.
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Oct 16, 2018 05:24
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Davin Valkri posted:Probably best for you to take the AEW birds. Done and done! I'm gonna read a book.
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Oct 16, 2018 05:27
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Japan is filled. You've got two potential spots in the DD/DE, but I think if we get more we'll slot them in as pilots.
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Oct 16, 2018 12:03
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Weather Report We'll give it another day or two and then I'll run 5 minutes of game time to allow systems to pick up contacts etc. After that we'll do the first round of orders.
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Oct 16, 2018 20:47
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Yooper posted:Weather Report Thanks, Yooper! Although, the typical suggestion given at the start of scenarios is to let things run for 1-5 seconds, not 5 minutes. That's a bit long, isn't it?
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Oct 16, 2018 20:55
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Davin Valkri posted:Thanks, Yooper! Although, the typical suggestion given at the start of scenarios is to let things run for 1-5 seconds, not 5 minutes. That's a bit long, isn't it? Normally yes. But given the length of the scenario and also the acquisition time for some of the subs, it'll give everyone some time to see what's nearby.
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Oct 16, 2018 21:22
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Militarily: I definitely like the plan of overwhelming firepower. The challenge will be actual detection to get that firepower into play, and hitting them quick and hard enough that they can't bring their air support into play either. Our F-15s are quality, but the MIG-31's out-range us by a LOT if they can get eyes on us before we can get eyes on them. My F-4s might as well not exist if they have to fight an air battle. Well, they do exist, but only to eat one missile each. More importantly to our operational objective, we need to get eyes on the route they would take for the quick approach, then if they are not there - making for us at speed - we need to consider the other routes. Politically: Openly attacking the convoy elevates this to a hot war, and probably increases the engagement range on those SAMs. I think we can assume that the SAMs are not going to openly attack us over international waters. I cannot guarantee that for the fighters / surface ships / submarines. However, if they engage us over international waters and fire the first shot, it may give us some political good will. Then are we not truly defending ourselves from an aggressive Russia? Don't forget the US Civil War and Ft. Sumter.
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Oct 16, 2018 22:49
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I don't think we have to worry about the politics. Our goal is to destroy the fleet in its entirety, the question is if we try and strike early before they can fully form their fleet or wait until they get close to Iturup before hammering them.
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Oct 16, 2018 22:58
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To clarify the fleet in being stuff regarding the use of our fighter jets. Because of the sortie rates when a plane flies a sortie it essentially has to stand down for another 4 and one third sorties. Doing some napkin math with our thirty f-15s we can continously keep 4 planes in the air at any given time with the capacity to raise that to 10 in case of an emergency. If we exceed that we lose our ability to have AC in the air at all time. That's why I think it's inadvisable to try to focus on continous coverage because any major air engagement will result in an unacceptable amount of AC being inoperable for long stretches of time. As an interesting note: This means we can keep one flight on patrol and provide escort for the F-4s without scheduling issues though.
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Oct 17, 2018 01:00
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Bacarruda, as discussed, I mapped out your proposed Russian courses for the convoy.  Between 1 and 2, I'd expect #1--the convoy travelling at full speed, with aggressive sweeps by offensive-counter-air missions and SSNs. We're facing goons, after all. I've also sketched out the following loose ideas for the initial plan. Obviously that'll develop more as we get sensor data, but for now, what do you think of this? Just looking at this, I should probably pull the F-15Js in closer, to avoid the E-767s getting dashed by the MiG-29Ks/Su-33s. And I should probably field the P-3s, too, but I'm not sure where to begin. 
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Oct 17, 2018 04:39
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Base and Aircraft Loadouts Chitose is big. 4 Runways. Big.  Not all of these are available, 8 F-4EJ & 30 F-15J.   Hachinohe AB    I'll provide more info on naval assets later on. Also if you need a particular question answered please post it in thread. Others might have the same question and anything in Discord can get lost really quick. Yooper fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Oct 17, 2018 |
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Oct 17, 2018 12:37
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put me in as an f15 pilot in squadron 1, I don't wan't any actual command responsibility though. banzai!
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Oct 17, 2018 14:03
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Yooper, clarify something on the map for me, please? Is Burevestnik close enough to the shore that we could shell it with our surface ships?
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Oct 17, 2018 15:24
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Yes. lol
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Oct 17, 2018 16:28
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I'm thinking maybe it's worth taking both destroyers in and shelling Burevestnik. Would probably need some air cover though. Perhaps positioning just off the coast west of of the airbase.
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Oct 17, 2018 17:39
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