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All I'm saying is he literally did a pratfall and did not sacrifice himself.
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May 26, 2020 23:46
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The cop is Miles' dad. Respecting dad supersedes ACAB. The jury finds Miles Morales innocent.
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May 26, 2020 23:46
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Roth posted:The Thing is a great character though (as is Cyborg) You're half right. Cyborg was a cool character in the cartoon from the 2000s. The Thing actually rules and is a great character in pretty much every appearance. Even in the bad movies, Michael Chiklis is the best part of both.
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May 26, 2020 23:48
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ruddiger posted:I mean, it’s given its audience enough confidence to dismiss the critiques of former black panther activists as the “Socialism For Babies brigade” in this very thread so you tell me.  Again, to reiterate because I dislike being misunderstood: I was referring specifically to you, forums poster ruddiger. But if you have any links to share about former Black Panther activists who do think that the film secretly promotes the CIA as you appear to be suggesting, please do link them.
BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 00:01
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TwoPair posted:I can think of about 1.4 billion reasons he might be doing it besides creative satisfaction. I mean, he probably is satisfied but let's be real here. To be honest, I can't. Making a film is three years of his life and with long days and an immense work load, if he doesn't want to do it I don't know why he would. He doesn't need to do it for his career, after the first one he's highly sought after and could probably do any project he likes. I don't know his finances but I gotta assume he doesn't need the money.
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May 27, 2020 00:16
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McCloud posted:Saying the CIA agent doesn't represent the CIA is a textbook definition of "ignoring the text of the film". This is some BravestOfTheLamps level refusing to engage with the film. A character’s literal job is not the same as what they represent. Do you think Robocop represents the police?
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May 27, 2020 00:20
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My read of Mr. Colonizer was that he was an exposition guy used for comic relief, who if he had a message in the context of the film was pretty much that nobody is somehow bone-evil; Killmonger could have been reconciled too, but he did not want to be, and in the end T'challa respected that choice. He also helps characterize Wakanda and generally cast it as a clearly human people (Shuri yells at him and calls him a colonizer) but also placing them as superior moral agents to the CIA/America/etc.; Shuri yells at him when he's goofing around, but he is accepted in a role. While this one may be more uncomfortable and I would not advance more than a vague gesture, he also seems to defuse a racial reading of Wakanda as a "black supremacist" state, he and Bucky get treated with consideration and sympathy and are even both healed and reconciled. Phylodox posted:This is some BravestOfTheLamps level refusing to engage with the film. A character’s literal job is not the same as what they represent. Do you think Robocop represents the police?
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May 27, 2020 00:34
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Lt. Danger posted:the ex-cia agent represents the cia. the cia agent doesn't represent the cia. when the cia promotes black panther, it's because they hate it Black Panther describes, in very clear terms, what the CIA actually does: destabilize foreign governments and then exploit the resulting chaos for personal gain. Then it has the ex-CIA agent enact those exact policies, while the actual CIA agent goes on to do the opposite of that. Again, keeping in mind that the film literally tells you what its definition of CIA policy is, who do you think better represents the CIA in the text?
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May 27, 2020 00:49
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Is the message of Man of Steel that actually Krypton was cool and awesome because Zod was a traitorous exile while Superman is an esteemed scion of a leading politician, or does in fact Zod ultimately represent the excesses of Krypton in the finale, while Supes represents the values he learned on earth integrated with a better vision of what Krypton could have been but wasn't?
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May 27, 2020 01:46
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Clark/Kal-El represents free will and the potential for good or evil. He's the unknown and could make things better or worse. Through reaching out to people and people reaching out to him he becomes the good and makes things better. Zod represents order and destiny, that everyone has a specific pre-determined purpose, the snuffing out of potential in favor of base survival.
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May 27, 2020 01:50
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Zod is literally trying to turn earth into a new Krypton. I mean characters can represent multiple different things but come on.
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May 27, 2020 01:52
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Fangz posted:Zod is literally trying to turn earth into a new Krypton. I mean characters can represent multiple different things but come on. I mean he could livve as a god on Earth, all Kryptonians have that potential. By terraforming it into new Krypton he's snuffing out that potential for base survival.
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May 27, 2020 02:22
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I think the cia man represents the cia because he's in the cia. in Black Panther, the cia is, like, a world police that takes down arms smugglers the ex-cia man doesn't represent the cia because he's ex-cia. he's rogue, he's fallen from grace, he's become the mask, abusing and misusing his training for selfish ends! the cia doesn't do that stuff [any more], they're police dudes now. they arrest terrorists and criminals like klaue, bucky, zemo this is a whitewash! and it works because americans and the west in general are not surprised by cia dirty tricks. the whole point of three-letter-agencys is to do nasty poo poo to "the bad guys" - commies, islamists, russians. everett ross is working as intended. killmonger's malfunction is he's doing that stuff to "the good guys", i.e. us the alternative would be for these films to express full and correct hostility to the cia and its equivalents. but there are obvious problems with that approach Fangz posted:Is the message of Man of Steel that actually Krypton was cool and awesome because Zod was a traitorous exile while Superman is an esteemed scion of a leading politician, or does in fact Zod ultimately represent the excesses of Krypton in the finale, while Supes represents the values he learned on earth integrated with a better vision of what Krypton could have been but wasn't? this is a bit muddled because Krypton is already future-Earth - a vision of what Earth could have been but won't be now. Superman rejects Krypton altogether; not a lot of integration with Zod's snapped neck regardless you still have a problem with this analogy - it's still a whitewash. the cia's not all bad! actually, we're friends with developing nations now, we've integrated their values with our own! it was a bad extremist who represented the excesses of the cia, and he's dead now
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May 27, 2020 02:29
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Lt. Danger posted:the cia doesn't do that stuff [any more], this is at no point even implied, jesus
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May 27, 2020 02:47
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good point. everett ross does enter the story while attempting to destabilise the south korean government for the benefit of american economic interests
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May 27, 2020 02:56
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Can we get a moratorium on BP CIA talk, akin to the old Snyder ban? It’s always just the same arguments circling each other with neither side budging.
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May 27, 2020 03:08
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Can we get a moratorium on BP CIA talk, akin to the old Snyder ban? It’s always just the same arguments circling each other with neither side budging.
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May 27, 2020 03:16
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Lt. Danger posted:I think the cia man represents the cia because he's in the cia. in Black Panther, the cia is, like, a world police that takes down arms smugglers Lt. Danger posted:the ex-cia man doesn't represent the cia because he's ex-cia. he's rogue, he's fallen from grace, he's become the mask, abusing and misusing his training for selfish ends! the cia doesn't do that stuff [any more], they're police dudes now. they arrest terrorists and criminals like klaue, bucky, zemo Lt. Danger posted:this is a whitewash! and it works because americans and the west in general are not surprised by cia dirty tricks. the whole point of three-letter-agencys is to do nasty poo poo to "the bad guys" - commies, islamists, russians. everett ross is working as intended. killmonger's malfunction is he's doing that stuff to "the good guys", i.e. us
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May 27, 2020 03:16
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Aphrodite posted:The cop is Miles' dad. Respecting dad supersedes ACAB. ACAB, even your cool dad, though I do understand looking past the frustrating decisions and imperfections of people you love. Maybe in fantasy Comics New York, cops aren't uniformly divided into either Monstrous Pieces of poo poo or People That Don't Interpose Against the Monstrous Pieces of poo poo They Work With. We're already dealing with kids getting powers from mutated spiders, dimensional travel, etc
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May 27, 2020 03:32
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Clark/Kal-El represents Jesus. Literally Jesus Christ. Nothing further actually. This is all I remember from the one time I saw Man of Steel on the day it released. Felt like I was being beaten over the head by Snyder with that one.
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May 27, 2020 03:32
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SonicRulez posted:This is all I remember from the one time I saw Man of Steel on the day it released. Felt like I was being beaten over the head by Snyder with that one. This saddens me because he clearly represents Moses.
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May 27, 2020 03:34
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Madkal posted:This saddens me because he clearly represents Moses. Moses becomes savior of his own people. Jesus becomes savior of the folks who erased any trace of his origins and remade his story in their image.
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May 27, 2020 03:43
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Fangz posted:I didn't know you were a former black panther activist. I was referring to the critiques brought forth by the daughter of Robert Seth Hayes which continue to go ignored. I’m sensing a theme. BrianWilly posted:I don't know about bros but I know there are certain female contingents on certain social platforms (Tumblr. It's Tumblr okay) who attempt to read characters like Stark and Loki and Kylo Ren as femme-coded or queer-coded somehow so that when macho men like Cap or Thor beat on them, they are actually being [something]-ist and also instigating sexual violence. Thanks, I think you inadvertently fulfilled my request. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 04:45
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SonicRulez posted:This is all I remember from the one time I saw Man of Steel on the day it released. Felt like I was being beaten over the head by Snyder with that one. There's a confession scene about giving himself up for the world framed in front of a strain glass window of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, and he dives out of the shop with his arms out in crucifix pose(which is also a natural jumping from a high place pose and rapidly transitions to his arms pointed forward for flight), but that's about it for Christ imagery. I think the film is declaring him to be Christ-like, but not saying he is Jesus. For one thing his birth is like the only NON virgin birth in a thousand years (or birth period). I could maybe see an argument for the nightmare where Zod says he's going to turn Earth into Krypton and Clark sinks into the skulls as being similar to the last temptation of Christ, but I don't really agree on that one. It's clear from the movie Snyder admires Christ and admires Superman and wants to show being like Christ as being heroic but I really don't think it is as dumb as "Superman is Jesus". Snyder loves self sacrifice to protect or save(or even just comfort) others. The fishermen do it, Clark does it, Jonathan does it, Perry does it, Hamilton does it, Hardy does it. Honestly I think starting Clark in the film as a fisherman more specifically shows him as a disciple of Christ than anything else. There's lots of other biblical imagery in there too, like Jonah and the whale and Moses in his basket or the Ark.
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May 27, 2020 04:58
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BrianWilly posted:That's not mutually exclusive with the definition that the film also presents for the CIA. so - good grief - [square brackets] is my commentary on the presented narrative, yuh? like, our turning point is the "end of history" when we transitioned from bi-polar anti-communism to unipolar anti-terrorism. if that's confusing you can just ignore it, it doesn't really relate to the film. just me being a stickler I mean if we want to look at what the film literally says - the "necessary exposition that the CIA is terrible and all Killmonger's bad aspects are the fault of the CIA": quote:EVERETT: Erik Stevens. Graduated Annapolis, aged 19; MIT for grad school. Joined the Seals and went straight to Afghanistan where he racked up confirmed kills like it was a videogame. Started calling him 'Killmonger.' He joined a JSOC ghost unit - now these guys are serious. They will drop off the grid so they can commit assassinations and take down governments. this is not a strong critique of american foreign policy. everett ross is pretty breezy - not ashamed, not contrite. it's very vague: "cia" is not even directly mentioned, but I will be charitable and accept JSOC as equivalent. but who are these people being assassinated? what governments are being taken down? perhaps everett is referring to e.g. the government of Salvador Allende or post-war Italy? no? maybe someone else? (to be 100% clear I am not particularly bothered Coogler didn't start reading aloud from Killing Hope or whatever. guy's making a film and getting paid; good for him. but I don't see where this US-critical reading is supported in the text)
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May 27, 2020 05:24
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Lt. Danger posted:(to be 100% clear I am not particularly bothered Coogler didn't start reading aloud from Killing Hope or whatever. guy's making a film and getting paid; good for him. but I don't see where this US-critical reading is supported in the text) e: Like I didn't read the film as being Black Panther: Death to America, but it was clearly in conversation with American society/politics/history. I could see a point that the film comes around on a broad endorsement of foreign intervention of some kinds, which could be read as a sort of nose-in-the-tent for continued drone bombings etc. but this gets a little advanced and into the entire MCU-as-a-macrostory situation more than BP as a single film. Nessus fucked around with this message at 05:44 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 05:41
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Can we get a moratorium on BP CIA talk, akin to the old Snyder ban? It’s always just the same arguments circling each other with neither side budging. What would you like to talk about instead?
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May 27, 2020 06:00
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John Wick of Dogs posted:There's a confession scene about giving himself up for the world framed in front of a strain glass window of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, and he dives out of the shop with his arms out in crucifix pose(which is also a natural jumping from a high place pose and rapidly transitions to his arms pointed forward for flight), but that's about it for Christ imagery. I think the film is declaring him to be Christ-like, but not saying he is Jesus. For one thing his birth is like the only NON virgin birth in a thousand years (or birth period). You said "that's about it" like those aren't two heavy mallets to the skull. I'm not denying there are other metaphors or imagery in the film, but yeesh. I remember thinking "I get it" while sitting there in the theater. You reminded me of that bad Jonathan Kent tornado scene. Oof.
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May 27, 2020 07:24
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Lt. Danger posted:I mean if we want to look at what the film literally says - the "necessary exposition that the CIA is terrible and all Killmonger's bad aspects are the fault of the CIA": Nakia: Killmonger has the full support of our military . And he burned the garden of the Heart-Shaped Herb. Ross: Of course he did. That's what he was trained to do. His unit used to work with the CIA to destabilize foreign countries. They would always strike at transitions of power...like an election year, or the death of a monarch. You get control of government, the military... T'Challa: Our resources. You're correct that the film doesn't then pause to do a call-out post for exactly which foreign governments were being targeted, but do you at least kind of comprehend why people are gleaning from this the conclusion that Killmonger is a stand-in for dirty CIA tactics? 'Cuz, again, that's literally the text? Moreover, y'all are always whining about audiences being smart enough to not require being spoonfed the themes and motifs of films. Why then, are audiences now so dumb that they'll watch a film where the villain is inextricably linked with the CIA because he literally learned government-destabilization-no-jutsu at their feet and somehow come away with the understanding that the film absolutely supports the CIA and wishes everyone else would as well? Because, just to be clear, that's actually what's being argued here. That either Ryan Coogler or someone else in direct influence of the film (who, exactly? It's a mystery!  ) is trying to send out pro-CIA messaging in a film that speaks of the CIA exclusively in terms of how they gently caress over foreign countries, wherein the protagonist is the king of a foreign country.
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May 27, 2020 09:00
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BrianWilly posted:Moreover, y'all are always whining about audiences being smart enough to not require being spoonfed the themes and motifs of films. Why then, are audiences now so dumb that they'll watch a film where the villain is inextricably linked with the CIA because he literally learned government-destabilization-no-jutsu at their feet and somehow come away with the understanding that the film absolutely supports the CIA and wishes everyone else would as well?
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May 27, 2020 10:00
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The CIA isn't bad because of the tactics they use. They're bad because they are imperialists, and imperialists are not limited to CIA tactics. Criticizing the CIA for their tactics is pointless. They'd be just as bad even if they became liberal humanists overnight.
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May 27, 2020 10:01
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ruddiger posted:I was referring to the critiques brought forth by the daughter of Robert Seth Hayes which continue to go ignored. You mean this? quote:One of the people who responded to Garza’s post, Crystal M. Hayes, is the child of a still-incarcerated member of the BPP, Robert Seth Hayes. Hayes lamented that while a meme showing her father and other still incarcerated members of the BPP superimposed over an image of the movie poster had 50,000 shares on Facebook, she was still having a hard time raising $10,000 for a legal defense fund. Because that isn't by a former black panther activist, like you said, and is not a critique of the movie. I'm not sure how you expect people to discuss this. PS: Robert Seth Hayes was released that year. Personally I think it would be a bit silly to praise the movie for getting him finally released after 45 years, but I guess it didn't stop you from faulting the movie for not releasing him within 4 months of the movie hitting cinemas. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:16 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 11:06
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ndor posted:The CIA isn't bad because of the tactics they use. They're bad because they are imperialists, and imperialists are not limited to CIA tactics. I mean Killmonger literally declares that "the sun will never set on the Wakandan empire"
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May 27, 2020 11:16
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Fangz posted:Personally I think it would be a bit silly to praise the movie for getting him finally released after 45 years, but I guess it didn't stop you from faulting the movie for not releasing him within 4 months of the movie hitting cinemas. Call it a wild hunch, but I don't believe that you actually think people's criticism of Black Panther is that it hasn't freed all prisoners of the American carceral state.
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May 27, 2020 12:14
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Dan Didio posted:Call it a wild hunch, but I don't believe that you actually think people's criticism of Black Panther is that it hasn't freed all prisoners of the American carceral state. If you look up the meme she is talking about, her point is actually a critique of people criticising the movie, that they are using her father's image to make and share anti-Black Panther movie memes but not actually helping her father's case. I actually think people are clutching at straws and trying to dress up really shallow takes in stolen glory. ruddiger's criticism is "former Black Panthers don't like the movie, how could the movie be good?" That's it. He didn't actually look into what Crystal Hayes had to say or who she even is, even as he *quoted her* and complained about other people ignoring her. That's hilarious. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:29 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 12:18
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Fangz posted:If you look up the meme she is talking about, her point is actually a critique of people criticising the movie, No, I don't think it is.
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May 27, 2020 12:42
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SonicRulez posted:You said "that's about it" like those aren't two heavy mallets to the skull. I'm not denying there are other metaphors or imagery in the film, but yeesh. I remember thinking "I get it" while sitting there in the theater. The only thing wrong with the tornado scene to be is Clark looks too old. From the dialogue he's a graduating high school senior. If he actually liked like an 18 year old instead of a 30 year old in the scene it would work a lot better and be more really believable that he isn't ready and Jonathan is right.
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May 27, 2020 12:43
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The core concept of the tornado scene is far more interesting than the execution, which is too slow and static to really evoke the feelings it needs to.
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May 27, 2020 12:45
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Dan Didio posted:No, I don't think it is. Okay so what is Crystal Hayes' point that we are ignoring? Bear in mind that I maaay have the original facebook post open in a tab right now and I will be very amused to see what you come up with. 
Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:15 on May 27, 2020 |
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May 27, 2020 13:01
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Fangz posted:I actually think people are clutching at straws and trying to dress up really shallow takes in stolen glory. There's also a weird desperation to make Black Panther about the almost wholly ancillary white character. It's super, super gross. The CIA angle ultimately does not matter in Black Panther. They only inform Killmonger's tactics, not his motivation. They did not create him, he used them to forge himself into the weapon he already wanted to be.
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May 27, 2020 13:10
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