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Hm. Maybe it was just the power trip of having a project that was totally under his control again combined with it having been 20 years since the last time he directed anything. A relatively young unknown making a project that nobody was sure would pay off is very different from a wealthy 50 year old man working with one of the most famous and successful movie series in history. Very different levels of humility. I still overall like the prequels, but they definitely had some poor directing.
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May 25, 2020 02:13
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FunkyAl posted:Well theres also brian blessed and ahmed best and the tall guy whose name i forget who plays gunray. And I could keep going but won't, because these movies have a lot of lot of professional actors giving good performances. Not all great, but mostly craftspeople who take their job seriously, many of them hidden behind effects, possibly even a few who believe there are no small parts at all. I mean, it really says something that you're reaching all the way down to characters who only have a couple line in order to find performances that aren't just awful. And Ahmed Best? Really? There are kinds of chemistry other than sexual, in any case.
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May 25, 2020 02:18
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Ahmed Best is great
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May 25, 2020 02:26
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Roth posted:Ahmed Best is great He tries so hard. It isn't his fault he ended up playing one of the most reviled characters in modern film.
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May 25, 2020 02:32
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Cease to Hope posted:I mean, it really says something that you're reaching all the way down to characters who only have a couple line in order to find performances that aren't just awful. And Ahmed Best? Really? That's most of the characters, it's seven characters who talk and then a ton who have two or three lines. It's a big ensemble. Grover walks on! And I don't explicitly mean sexual tension, but the chemistry between a figure of power and a kid he's manipulating is a pretty dark thing no matter how you play it, playing it with more realistic depth I would argue is too intense for a kids film, even one with youngling genocide. I think they pulled back enough that it's still effective, but I guess I also don't know what kinda chemistry you think would be effective.
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May 25, 2020 02:41
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FunkyAl posted:That's most of the characters, it's seven characters who talk and then a ton who have two or three lines. It's a big ensemble. Grover walks on! So you are saying that the reason that ROTS does not depict it's central relationship effectively is because it was a kids film and couldn't go that dark. The follow up question is 'why go that route in the film at all if you can't do it justice?'
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May 25, 2020 02:46
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Cease to Hope posted:THX1138, American Graffiti, and Star Wars. He also made a lot of the fact that the prequels were his own personal artistic vision, fulfilled for the first time through digital photography, too. I think only AotC and RotS are purely digital; I've got a vague recollection of reading that the only scene in TPM that was native digital was the scene where Qui-Gon explains Midichlorians to Anakin But yeah, all three were self-financed and came in under budget and ahead of schedule. Not difficult when you own the special effects studio too, I guess.
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May 25, 2020 02:48
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sweet geek swag posted:So you are saying that the reason that ROTS does not depict it's central relationship effectively is because it was a kids film and couldn't go that dark. The follow up question is 'why go that route in the film at all if you can't do it justice?' So you can put toys in froot loops E: Honestly, probably because these are kids films but if they fail to entertain a certain lucrative democratic of adults who want these to be hard and edgy they will lose as much money as if they lost kids. FunkyAl fucked around with this message at 02:54 on May 25, 2020 |
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May 25, 2020 02:52
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FunkyAl posted:And I don't explicitly mean sexual tension, but the chemistry between a figure of power and a kid he's manipulating is a pretty dark thing no matter how you play it, playing it with more realistic depth I would argue is too intense for a kids film, even one with youngling genocide. I think they pulled back enough that it's still effective, but I guess I also don't know what kinda chemistry you think would be effective. Said kid gets burned alive, screaming through the agony, by the end of the trilogy. What's more, I'm not asking for it to be darker, just to be more convincing. The movies are aiming to show Anakin being seduced by the power of evil, but what they actually show is Palpatine telling Anakin the world's most obvious lies and Anakin falling for them like the galaxy's most gullible schmuck. Part of that is unconvincing performances where they have little chemistry, part of that is a horrible screenplay. And it's reasonable to assign blame for both of those things to the same dude. Chemistry is not a euphemism for the ways people perform sexual attraction, in this case. The problem is that Palpatine doesn't inspire, doesn't trick, doesn't bully, doesn't con. We are told Palpatine is charismatic and seduces Anakin to evil but we never actually see it. He just says what Anakin needs to do in order to move the plot forward, and Anakin does it so the movie doesn't screech to a halt. Narrative contrivance can cover a great many sins, but you can't rely on it to carry the story through something like this. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 02:58 on May 25, 2020 |
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May 25, 2020 02:53
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Cease to Hope posted:Said kid gets burned alive, screaming through the agony, by the end of the trilogy. Rick McCallum? E: I can also se your point and think I misread the chemistry thing. There are more interesting angles to take the character in, but at the same time there's also a little bit of what convincing bullying manipulation etc. I also don't think palps feels real attachment for anakin so even a more typical "evil friends" dynamic might not have been the best choice. FunkyAl fucked around with this message at 04:17 on May 25, 2020 |
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May 25, 2020 02:55
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Cease to Hope posted:Said kid gets burned alive, screaming through the agony, by the end of the trilogy. Anakin was supposed to be a broken kid who never really got over leaving his mother behind on Tatooine. Palpatine takes advantage of that flaw and works at it throughout the trilogy. I thought Ian McDiarmid did an excellent job of showing that whenever the two of them are together. He's obviously endearing himself to Anakin, standing in as the parental figure he wants---someone who tells him that he is good and special and right, as opposed to Obi-Wan who treats him more like a kid brother that he regularly cuts down to size. As for Hayden Christensen, I think he was overmatched by the role. He's playing the dude who becomes Darth Vader, a cultural icon of coolness and badassery (despite getting jobbed in ANH by an old dude and the galaxy's worst smuggler, lmao). The audience is focused on Darth Vader, not the broken person who becomes him. He had to play that awkard Jedi who just desperately wanted to love and be loved, and he had to do it in a way that was compelling to the audience. He tries his best, but the end result is probably best summed up by this gif:  Also, George Lucas did not want to make people root for Darth Vader being evil, or being inherently evil. He's been pretty clear on the subject: https://www.rollingstone.com/movies/movie-news/george-lucas-and-the-cult-of-darth-vader-247142/ quote:Why do you think people have focused so much on Vader? Also, I will forever grieve that we did not get to see George Lucas' Sequel Trilogy that explained what and how the Force mitochondria influence their hosts.
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May 25, 2020 10:38
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quote:When I announced that the first story was going to be about a nine-year-old boy, everybody here said, “That’s insane, you’re going to destroy the whole franchise Sold off just a little over a decade after someone tried to warn him.
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May 25, 2020 12:58
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for literal billions
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May 25, 2020 13:58
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One way of thinking about it is if they spent four billion on six movies then four of them could be worth a billion dollars each and two of them might be worth zero dollars.
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May 25, 2020 14:11
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reignofevil posted:One way of thinking about it is if they spent four billion on six movies then four of them could be worth a billion dollars each and two of them might be worth zero dollars. remember that every Hollywood movie nets, at best, 0 dollars Hollywood accounting, baby
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May 25, 2020 15:09
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What is happening in the background of this gif?
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May 25, 2020 15:13
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Dark side of the force is a pathway to GIF motion blur some consider... unnatural. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyJNEZPm-pQ
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May 25, 2020 18:08
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Bogus Adventure posted:Anakin was supposed to be a broken kid who never really got over leaving his mother behind on Tatooine. Palpatine takes advantage of that flaw and works at it throughout the trilogy. I thought Ian McDiarmid did an excellent job of showing that whenever the two of them are together. He's obviously endearing himself to Anakin, standing in as the parental figure he wants---someone who tells him that he is good and special and right, as opposed to Obi-Wan who treats him more like a kid brother that he regularly cuts down to size. This is what the movie might look like if it were good. Instead, you're spinning a whole overarching narrative out of two perfunctory scenes that set up Anakin's motivation: he wanted to be on the Jedi Council but didn't get to. There's also the additional problem that Anakin and Obi-Wan have almost no relationship whatsoever, which brings things back full circle. Obi-Wan is always too busy chasing meaningless side quests to set up flashy action scenes, so the relationship between him and Anakin that we are told exists doesn't actually play out on the screen. Lt. Danger posted:for literal billions He did not tank the market for Star Wars toys. Not the strongest endorsement of the movie's widely derided as toy commercials.
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May 25, 2020 21:53
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Cease to Hope posted:This is what the movie might look like if it were good. Instead, you're spinning a whole overarching narrative out of two perfunctory scenes that set up Anakin's motivation: he wanted to be on the Jedi Council but didn't get to. This is an overly reductive view of Anakin's motivations and relationships, and there are scenes going back to Episode II that establish Anakin and Palpatine having a mentor-protege relationship. Anakin may be frustrated that he is on the Jedi Council but not a Jedi Master, but he ultimately breaks because he is overly possessive of Padme. He's basically Young Werther with superpowers, and Padme is his Charlotte. Fortunately for Anakin, he actually gets to be with his love, and the Other Man is a figment of his fevered imagination. Hell, Padme even dies of a broken heart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5RhdJqdcEE
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May 25, 2020 22:38
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The prequels don't feel good because they were made by angels.
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May 25, 2020 22:50
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I do think that they should've shown more of Obi-Wan's relationship with Anakin, but it still kinda works. The main arc of their relationship is basically Obi-Wan not quite being able to control or guide Anakin the way he wanted to, basically failing to be an effective father figure, and then by episode 3, he's basically given up on reining Anakin in and just treats him like a good buddy. A brother, instead of a son. This fits pretty well with their dynamic in the movies where Obi-Wan is always just kinda leaving Anakin behind, and then when Anakin catches up, Obi-Wan just criticizes him for what he did wrong. A big part of this is that the movies really don't want to lay any blame on Obi-Wan's feet. We don't really see Anakin really demonstrating a want for Obi-Wan to be a father to him. At worst, Obi-Wan is just really dense and never notices Anakin's issues, potentially because Anakin is just trying with all his might to hide everything, which he apparently succeeds at. Usually whenever Obi-Wan's onscreen, the focus isn't really on interpersonal relationships, it's on the adventure, the chase scene, the space battle. It's kind of a microcosm of how the movies and EU just want to show off the Jedi as being really at fault and just wants to show them being cool instead of directly showing how they failed to deal with the changing politics or how they were ignorant of the evil in their midst. There isn't some huge punishment for building emotional attachments, they'll just give you a talking to. The worst thing that can happen is you'll get kicked out of the order, which as Dooku shows, is fine. Especially if you have ties to some wealthy politician. Come to think of it, I don't even remember a big moment when Obi-Wan makes a realization that Anakin was romantically involved with Padme, or if there is one, he very clearly doesn't care.
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May 26, 2020 00:46
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Cease to Hope posted:He did not tank the market for Star Wars toys. Not the strongest endorsement of the movie's widely derided as toy commercials. ??? reignofevil's jibe was Lucas had to sell the franchise because he destroyed it. the counterpoint is that it sold for billions of dollars, which doesn't sound very destroyed? what a weird intervention
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May 26, 2020 01:59
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It's funny how most of the "evidence" that George Lucas is bad just reinforces how cool he is
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May 26, 2020 02:24
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Blood Boils posted:It's funny how most of the "evidence" that George Lucas is bad just reinforces how cool he is yeah he was a rad dude who surrounded himself with sycophants, created Jar Jar loving Binks and would rather fix something in post than do another take or stand his fat rear end up
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May 26, 2020 03:13
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Bogus Adventure posted:This is an overly reductive view of Anakin's motivations and relationships, and there are scenes going back to Episode II that establish Anakin and Palpatine having a mentor-protege relationship. Anakin may be frustrated that he is on the Jedi Council but not a Jedi Master, but he ultimately breaks because he is overly possessive of Padme. He's basically Young Werther with superpowers, and Padme is his Charlotte. Fortunately for Anakin, he actually gets to be with his love, and the Other Man is a figment of his fevered imagination. Hell, Padme even dies of a broken heart. The movies tell us that Anakin and Palpatine have a mentor-protege relationship, but they do not act out that relationship in a believable way hardly at all. I'm not arguing that there is some sort of plot inconsistency, just that their relationship is underwritten and consigned to exposition in the majority of cases, and not particularly believable when it is on screen.
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May 26, 2020 03:18
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What would make it easier for you to believe that this scene depicts a relation of mentorship?
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May 26, 2020 03:21
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Bit weird to call an old man a fatass
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May 26, 2020 03:23
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Bongo Bill posted:What would make it easier for you to believe that this scene depicts a relation of mentorship? Considering it's the exact same scene that I described as "perfunctory" and again didn't find convincing the first time someone linked it on this page, the answer is obviously no.
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May 26, 2020 04:15
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That's not a yes or no question
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May 26, 2020 04:31
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Roth posted:Bit weird to call an old man a fatass
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May 26, 2020 05:07
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I'd really rather you all not bring up George Lucas' weight (or anyone for that matter) as an insult. Stick to making fun of his movies, directorial talents, and ideas.
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May 26, 2020 05:30
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As a real life insult, in real life John Milius threw George around like a football on the set of one of his movies
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May 26, 2020 05:58
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FunkyAl posted:As a real life insult, in real life John Milius threw George around like a football on the set of one of his movies George would only activate his power had John Milius insulted R4
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May 26, 2020 06:00
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Cease to Hope posted:The movies tell us that Anakin and Palpatine have a mentor-protege relationship, but they do not act out that relationship in a believable way hardly at all. I'm not arguing that there is some sort of plot inconsistency, just that their relationship is underwritten and consigned to exposition in the majority of cases, and not particularly believable when it is on screen. It is one thing (and completely fair) to say that you don't think the acting in the scene is believable. It is another thing (and quite unfair) to assert that the reliance on exposition an ensemble movie telling a bunch of stories somehow invalidates them. Palpatine constantly compliments Anakin at any and every moment he sees him in the Prequels, starting from the end of Episode I when he thanks him for saving Naboo and adds "We will watch your career with great interest." He gives him justifications for any deviance from the Jedi code, insidiously seeding him with distrust and resentment for the less forgiving and emotive Jedi Order. The perfect example of him doing this is the Dooku scene in Episode III: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDGh2tWjgGY I think it's fair to argue that Lucas is not good at getting actors to emote---some of which definitely stems from all of the green screen involved (something that was and still is incredibly challenging for actors to deal with---see Ian McKellan) or writing elegant dialog. It's completely fair to say that you hate them. However, there is evidence throughout the three movies to establish the protege-mentor relationship between the two.
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May 26, 2020 06:16
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Cease to Hope posted:Considering it's the exact same scene that I described as "perfunctory" and again didn't find convincing the first time someone linked it on this page, the answer is obviously no. No, as in you're just going to refuse to answer the question?
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May 26, 2020 06:38
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Bongo Bill posted:No, as in you're just going to refuse to answer the question? It's this
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May 26, 2020 06:43
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Roth posted:That's not a yes or no question Oh, I misread it. The problem isn't that scene, although neither of their performances are particularly remarkable and the entire scene makes it difficult to see either of their faces. Like I said, it's merely perfunctory. The problem is that scene is basically the entirety of Palpatine developing any relationship with Anakin. Imagine if the entirety of Yoda and Luke's interaction on Dagobah was less than a minute long. Bogus Adventure posted:However, there is evidence throughout the three movies to establish the protege-mentor relationship between the two. Again. I am not complaining about a plot hole! Of course there is a protege-mentor relationship between them. We're told that repeatedly. Like a lot of things in the prequels, it all happens offscreen. It's established in a handful of perfunctory, wooden interactions between the two, so we never get any sense of their relationship. As a result, when Palpatine pushes Anakin to make irreversible mistakes, Anakin just seems gullible, because we never got any sense of the relationship between them. Merely the fact that it exists. That scene is a good example. There's no reason for Anakin to kill Dooku, and no reason for him to follow a barked order. Anakin doesn't seem consumed by anger or passion, doesn't seem to be acting on impulse. It's just poorly timed, poorly sequenced, and poorly acted. It could work, if Anakin was visibly angry, if Palpatine offered any of his after-the-fact justifications beforehand, if there were some scene where it was established that Palpatine had some kind of power over Anakin already. As it is, it just doesn't work. Palpatine tells Anakin to do a thing, and he does it, because otherwise the entire movie comes crashing to a halt. There are a bunch of unrelated problems with that scene. Obi-Wan's part in this scene is just terrible. Everything with the droids is poorly framed, and none of the action with Obi-Wan - both being suspended midair and the bit with the falling walkway - looks convincing at all. There are also writing problems: why does Dooku try to taunt Anakin into tapping into the Dark Side? Dooku believes the Dark Side is stronger, and has no particular reason to want to corrupt Anakin, just kill him. It's just another problem with Dooku having no goal, no motivation, and little in the way of personality besides Christopher Lee's sneer. Bongo Bill posted:No, as in you're just going to refuse to answer the question? Bogus Adventure posted:It's this You two need to keep it in your pants.
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May 26, 2020 08:31
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So you want 'em to emote more?
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May 26, 2020 08:49
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Filthy Hans posted:yeah he was a rad dude who surrounded himself with sycophants, created Jar Jar loving Binks and would rather fix something in post than do another take or stand his fat rear end up even if all these things were objectively true they're, uh, not very bad. let's hope all our crimes are only so bad as "invented a cartoon rabbit who is disliked"
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May 26, 2020 09:08
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Bongo Bill posted:So you want 'em to emote more? The acting isn't convincing and they spend very little time interacting.
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May 26, 2020 09:46
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