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Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


veni veni veni posted:

I also think there is an expectation from a lot of gamers that they should have some say in the matter in the what their avatar does. After all, they are controlling the moment to moment action, so why don't they get to do what they want in the big decisions? But that has never been what TLOU is about. There are a million games that will let you do that. Some of them are more memorable for it, but 99% will exit your brain the moment after you finish.

Yea, I think the interactive element is what tips it. It won't be this way for everyone, but I think a lot of people will instinctively play a character as "I", even in a tightly controlled narrative. I definitely do it and once I realise it's not appropriate, it takes effort to pull myself back. I'm glad I did it for this game.

I keep thinking back to Jamie Lannister in GoT and how I absolutely hated the prick at first, but towards the end he was one of my favourite characters (which was never an endorsement of his prior motives/actions, but definitely added some conflict and texture to my enjoyment of his character). I think that would have been much different if his story was presented via gameplay (where "I" was Jamie and also other major GoT characters). I didn't get too invested in discussions surrounding GoT, but I don't recall such a visceral reaction to his "redemption" or the efforts to build audience empathy for him and I think that lack of interactivity - and so exclusively viewing him as his own person - may play a part.

In TLOU2, when I initially switched to Abby and I realised I'd be controlling her for a good chunk of time, I reeled hard (thinking: boo! she's my - rather than Ellie's - nemesis!). Fast-forward a few hours and I was largely on-board (no doubt due to having that same interactive process happen with her character now). In pulling myself back from that, I was able to experience that same sense of conflict and texture I had for Jamie Lannister for both Ellie and Abby.

The game tries to force you to pull back from that, by virtue of the two playable characters coming into direct conflict at the theatre and beach. I think if the story/gameplay fails to cause that perspective shift (perhaps one side of the story doesn't resonate to the player and they remain - to some degree - thinking of Abby or Ellie as "I"), I can see how some players might bounce hard off that. In my case, I still wasn't quite there during the theatre fight; I really didn't want to wail on Ellie (who was still "my" character) or hurt Dina (who was still "my" character's love interest). It almost made me reject the game out of hand. It wasn't until reflecting back on it during the farm sequence that I was able to think "yea, this isn't 'my' story, lol. It's Abby, not 'me' who was hurting Ellie/Dina" and appreciate it as part of the broader narrative.


stev posted:

There should've been more horse.

Genuinely a little upset that Shimmer wasn't mourned.

Akapursch fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Jun 30, 2020

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Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

The Corridor of Uncertainty

a new study bible! posted:

I legit think that Naughty Dog is trying to make a commentary on the heartland vs coastal elites and the American political divide.

So if Abby and the WLF are coastal elite they:

- Live in conditions that insulate them from the violence that sustains their way of life
- Think that there is such a thing as just the right amount of torture
- Watch anime
- Believe in a just world where orderly queues make sense but are fine with celebrities cutting in line whenever they want a burrito

And Ellie and Jackson represent the heartland where people:
- Say the bad words that are far worse than structural oppression
- Act largely based on spite and a sense that they have been personally wronged by events far beyond their control

Definitely need to think of more for Jackson

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

If you're where I think you are Santa Barbara you probably have about an hour and no more than 2 hours left but if you gotta sleep you gotta sleep.

The takes of this game that "I don't need a game to tell me violence/revenge is bad" is so lazy because Ellie is motivated not just by revenge but by self-loathing and disassociation. The conversation at the end brings this home "I was meant to die". She owed Joel her life in the most horrible of circumstances where her very existence is antithetical to the hope for a better future.

Then she owes her life to Abby! Twice! In the sense that Abby makes an active choice to let her live. Again her not dying brings horror and wrath upon the people around her. Ellie is caught in a belief that she is living a half-life to the point that vengeance is the only way she can have some sort of purpose of closure.

Ellie letting Abby live is such a great ending because it brings that full circle. Abby actually owes her life to Ellie because she probably would have died on that pole otherwise.


It's funny that Dunkey made the best point about this game, and something that fans of a lot of franchise media understand, that you have to open your mind to what is being shown. Of course the onus is on a storyteller to make something compelling but the audience does have to do some of the work to get everything out of a provocative story. This game is way more thematically rich than most video games. What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story? Maybe MGS?

I really like this take. I'm going to steal it and present it as my own when my casual friends finish the game in a couple weeks.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story? Maybe MGS?

A loving million of them? Christ Disco Elysium has more to say about the human condition in your starting hotel room than this game does in it's entire run. I don't even think it's the best examination of this subject on this platform. I'd say that'd be God of War, which took an actually unlikable prick of a main character and forced them to confront what they are. Or even RDR2, as a shootmans, takes a look at the cycle of violence better.

Like do you just not play a lot of video games? It's a good shootmans, it's not a high-mark for video game storytelling. It's a high mark for a certain type of visual presentation, which is a different thing. This is nice, but it feels more evolutionary to what's been done.We've been mocapping actors and taking photographs of real objects to move into video games for a long time now. And even in the recent past? From REre2 and Spider-man and RDR2 and so on you could see here from there. It's not mind-blowing. It's just slightly increased fidelity. Some of those games have bits that look better than this game. And as far as pure visual presentation go, well, it's not even top ten. Would I even say this game is even better than Hollow Knight, which nails it's aesthetic? No.

Mulva fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Jun 30, 2020

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Mulva posted:

A loving million of them? Christ Disco Elysium has more to say about the human condition in your starting hotel room than this game does in it's entire run. I don't even think it's the best examination of this subject on this platform. I'd say that'd be God of War, which took an actually unlikable prick of a main character and forced them to confront what they are.

Like do you just not play a lot of video games? It's a good shootmans, it's not a high-mark for video game storytelling. It's a high mark for a certain type of visual presentation, which is a different thing. This is nice, but it feels more evolutionary to what's been done.We've been mocapping actors and taking photographs of real objects to move into video games for a long time now. And even in the recent past? From REre2 and Spider-man and RDR2 and so on you could see here from there. It's not mind-blowing. It's just slightly increased fidelity. Some of those games have bits that look better than this game. And as far as pure visual presentation go, well, it's not even top ten. Would I even say this game is even better than Hollow Knight, which nails it's aesthetic? No.

I think it's got a way better story than all the games you just mentioned except maybe RDR2 and DE (and DE is doing something very different to this so it feels like an apples to oranges comparison). Every character is distinctively written and has fleshed out motivations and the story structure and events are all built around the themes. I mean, it's not like it's that groundbreaking, but it's absolutely worthy of praise.

Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Jun 30, 2020

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



Pork Pro

Mulva posted:

A loving million of them? Christ Disco Elysium has more to say about the human condition in your starting hotel room than this game does in it's entire run. I don't even think it's the best examination of this subject on this platform. I'd say that'd be God of War, which took an actually unlikable prick of a main character and forced them to confront what they are. Or even RDR2, as a shootmans, takes a look at the cycle of violence better.

Like do you just not play a lot of video games? It's a good shootmans, it's not a high-mark for video game storytelling. It's a high mark for a certain type of visual presentation, which is a different thing. This is nice, but it feels more evolutionary to what's been done.We've been mocapping actors and taking photographs of real objects to move into video games for a long time now. And even in the recent past? From REre2 and Spider-man and RDR2 and so on you could see here from there. It's not mind-blowing. It's just slightly increased fidelity. Some of those games have bits that look better than this game. And as far as pure visual presentation go, well, it's not even top ten. Would I even say this game is even better than Hollow Knight, which nails it's aesthetic? No.

You seem kind mad. Maybe take a break?

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!



BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

I think what the Seraphite followers did after the seraphite leader was martyred was they took the vaginal 'wound' idea and iconography that had manifested within their tribal structure as a symbol of rebirth/renewal against civilization's corruption of nature...and they made it even more central to their identities by cutting their faces, literally incorporating how their enemies spoke of them into their appearance.

If I remember correctly, there is a dialogue you can eavesdrop into or a letter that explains the facial scars as an external and visual symbol of the Seraphites' imperfection compared to their messianic leader figure.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Necrothatcher posted:

I think it's got a way better story than all the games you just mentioned except maybe RDR2 and DE (and DE is doing something very different to this so it feels like an apples to oranges comparison). Every character is distinctively written and has fleshed out motivations and the story structure and events are all built around the themes. I mean, it's not like it's that groundbreaking, but it's absolutely worthy of praise.

Hilariously between the time you started writing that and the time you posted I edited in RDR2. Which means of the 3 games I called out for actual story? You said maybe 2 of them were better. And there are no apples and oranges to "What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story?". That's a pretty loving stark question, it gets a stark answer. I'm pretty sure more has been written about Planescape: Torment than vast swaths of real world religions. The others were visual presentation, which isn't entirely story. It's part of how the story is conveyed to you. And there are games that go for an entirely different, non-realistic aesthetic and kill it. Wind Waker HD will continue to hold up for all time because of that, whereas eventually direction will be the only thing that sets photorealistic games apart. TLoU1 was roughly equal to this game for it's level of sophistication when it came out, and you don't see people blowing it today.

It's a good game, it was personally a 7/10 [And people have completely butchered what that means. In review terms saying that is like saying "The game was a 3 but I don't want to lose access to companies". No, I thought it was enjoyable enough, and even if I kind of blitzed it to dodge spoilers COVID gave me enough free time it's not like I was missing much else, and even taking more time now it doesn't hit any better or worse to me.], I can see how buying in to the central issue could make it a bit better. It's just not particularly ground-breaking. Other games have done things like this before. The switch-off is not new, it's just happening in a big name game getting attention. It's like....gently caress this is good, I get to make another movie example.

TLoU2 is the Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War of video games, where adding the slightest bit of character nuance to a popcorn flick made people bust in their jeans. And it's like....drat, it's a fine movie to watch and all, but maybe expand the palette a little? Dream a little bigger on what great storytelling is? There are actually well written video games out there, feel free to play them in this time of global lock-down.

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

You seem kind mad. Maybe take a break?

If this is what mad seems like to you, I commend you on a well lived life.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Mulva posted:

Hilariously between the time you started writing that and the time you posted I edited in RDR2. Which means of the 3 games I called out for actual story? You said maybe 2 of them were better. And there are no apples and oranges to "What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story?". That's a pretty loving stark question, it gets a stark answer. I'm pretty sure more has been written about Planescape: Torment than vast swaths of real world religions. The others were visual presentation, which isn't entirely story. It's part of how the story is conveyed to you. And there are games that go for an entirely different, non-realistic aesthetic and kill it. Wind Waker HD will continue to hold up for all time because of that, whereas eventually direction will be the only thing that sets photorealistic games apart. TLoU1 was roughly equal to this game for it's level of sophistication when it came out, and you don't see people blowing it today.

I see plenty of people still praising TLOU1's graphics and art direction though? There's a lot of people playing the remastered version for the first time in advance of the sequel and commenting that it's aged really well.

e:

quote:

I'm pretty sure more has been written about Planescape: Torment than vast swaths of real world religions.

uhm, you sure about that

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

You are weirdly angry about this. If there are games with stories as compelling I'd love to play them, which is why I asked.

I do think there are more people having discussions about the implications and themes of this game than I've seen almost anywhere else. If you want to talk about RPGs yes more has been written about like Elder Scrolls lore or whatever but that's world building discussion not theme.

I've played Disco Elysium and loved it, as mentioned it's doing something completely different to this though.

I dunno about RDR. I don't love open world games and the slow pace of it seems unappealing to me. I also don't really want to support Rockstar as a company, I find them actively repulsive. Their "satire" is less interesting than family guy and the scene where you torture a Middle Eastern man "It's clever because the crazy guy makes quips during it" is one of the worst things ever put in a video game.

What are the others?

BOAT SHOWBOAT fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jun 30, 2020

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy.




Mulva posted:

The switch-off is not new, it's just happening in a big name game getting attention.

I've tried to think of games where this happens and I'm coming up short. Can you name a few?

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Seedge posted:

I've tried to think of games where this happens and I'm coming up short. Can you name a few?

All I can think of is MGS2, LA Noire, and the first TLOU.

E: And maybe Inside

BOAT SHOWBOAT fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Jun 30, 2020

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Seedge posted:

I've tried to think of games where this happens and I'm coming up short. Can you name a few?

shameful coming from a poster with a Nier gangtag

am0kgonzo
Jun 18, 2010


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

I dunno about RDR. I don't love open world games and the slow pace of it seems unappealing to me. I also don't really want to support Rockstar as a company, I find them actively repulsive. Their "satire" is less interesting than family guy and the scene where you torture a Middle Eastern man "It's clever because the crazy guy makes quips during it" is one of the worst things ever put in a video game.

rockstars stance on torture seems to be alot better than naughty dogs

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

am0kgonzo posted:

rockstars stance on torture seems to be alot better than naughty dogs

This game presents it as awful while that one depicts it as funny.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Necrothatcher posted:

uhm, you sure about that

100%. I mean it's the internet, you shouldn't be shocked, and there are also plenty of smaller religions. I'm pretty sure there's been more written about the Silent Hill circumcision meltdown than Jainism. That says less about Jainism than it does about the omnipresence of digital media in people's lives and how loving crazy that circumcision thing was to some people.

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

I do think there are more people having discussions about the implications and themes of this game than I've seen almost anywhere else.

It's not even the most discussed game on this one forum as far as themes, character, world, and meaning in our lives. That's probably....Disco Elysium? Which has been going for nearly a year and 300 pages, and is still chugging along.

quote:

I've played Disco Elysium and loved it, as mentioned it's doing something completely different to this though.

So what exactly gets to be compared to this? Only other shootmans? Lets set the bar here to what a fair fight is. Because evidently as a video game telling a story DE isn't fair, because it's doing this totally different thing [Of...still being a video game telling a story?].

quote:

I also don't really want to support Rockstar as a company, I find them actively repulsive.

....you don't want to support Rockstar as a company, but DO want to support Naughty Dog? You know that amazing visual presentation, the animation work you praised? People got hospitalized to make that. All AAA game developers are loving garbage and brutalize their employees.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

Mulva posted:

100%. I mean it's the internet, you shouldn't be shocked, and there are also plenty of smaller religions. I'm pretty sure there's been more written about the Silent Hill circumcision meltdown than Jainism. That says less about Jainism than it does about the omnipresence of digital media in people's lives and how loving crazy that circumcision thing was to some people.

well, you're obviously objectively wrong, but it feels like a waste of time to try and convince you otherwise

am0kgonzo
Jun 18, 2010


BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

This game presents it as awful while that one depicts it as funny.

one depicts it as an effective way to obtain intel, the other as a way for the feds to obtain an excuse to assassinate somebody

im not disputing that rockstars satire is incredibly heavy handed

Seedge
Jun 15, 2009
Hey, buddy.




Necrothatcher posted:

shameful coming from a poster with a Nier gangtag

That wasn't exactly hidden in trailers.

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

All I can think of is MGS2, LA Noire, and the first TLOU.

E: And maybe Inside

MGS 2 for sure, two decades ago. I never played LA Noire, are you not Phelps the whole time? First TLOU you're Ellie for about an hour. I think Left Behind is literally longer. Inside, sure. That was pretty great.

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Mulva posted:

...you don't want to support Rockstar as a company, but DO want to support Naughty Dog? You know that amazing visual presentation, the animation work you praised? People got hospitalized to make that. All AAA game developers are loving garbage and brutalize their employees.
Yeah I have my own perspective on this. I spent several years working providing employment rights advice and assisting with bargaining disputes at a union. While boycotts can have virtue it isn't the most effective thing here. The solution for game developers is to unionise. Rockstar on the other hand is easier because I don't enjoy the content of their games. Riding to mission markers and doing menial tasks with bad satire isn't interesting.

Seedge posted:

MGS 2 for sure, two decades ago. I never played LA Noire, are you not Phelps the whole time? First TLOU you're Ellie for about an hour. I think Left Behind is literally longer. Inside, sure. That was pretty great.
You play a different character at the end of LA Noire. Yeah the Ellie thing is short but it was still a twist as the developers literally said it doesn't happen and lied.

The only other things, and I'm definitely grasping at straws here are playing as Joker in one of the Mass Effect games for like two minutes and becoming a Heartless in KH briefly. I can't think of anything else.


e: The Laguna sequences in FFVIII? We really are going back now...

Akapursch posted:

I really like this take. I'm going to steal it and present it as my own when my casual friends finish the game in a couple weeks.

Haha, do it. Ellie's survivor's guilt goes back even further than the end of the first game and to her very existence as the only immune person, with what happened to Riley.

BOAT SHOWBOAT fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jun 30, 2020

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Mulva posted:

Hilariously between the time you started writing that and the time you posted I edited in RDR2. Which means of the 3 games I called out for actual story? You said maybe 2 of them were better. And there are no apples and oranges to "What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story?". That's a pretty loving stark question, it gets a stark answer. I'm pretty sure more has been written about Planescape: Torment than vast swaths of real world religions. The others were visual presentation, which isn't entirely story. It's part of how the story is conveyed to you. And there are games that go for an entirely different, non-realistic aesthetic and kill it. Wind Waker HD will continue to hold up for all time because of that, whereas eventually direction will be the only thing that sets photorealistic games apart. TLoU1 was roughly equal to this game for it's level of sophistication when it came out, and you don't see people blowing it today.

It's a good game, it was personally a 7/10 [And people have completely butchered what that means. In review terms saying that is like saying "The game was a 3 but I don't want to lose access to companies". No, I thought it was enjoyable enough, and even if I kind of blitzed it to dodge spoilers COVID gave me enough free time it's not like I was missing much else, and even taking more time now it doesn't hit any better or worse to me.], I can see how buying in to the central issue could make it a bit better. It's just not particularly ground-breaking. Other games have done things like this before. The switch-off is not new, it's just happening in a big name game getting attention. It's like....gently caress this is good, I get to make another movie example.

TLoU2 is the Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War of video games, where adding the slightest bit of character nuance to a popcorn flick made people bust in their jeans. And it's like....drat, it's a fine movie to watch and all, but maybe expand the palette a little? Dream a little bigger on what great storytelling is? There are actually well written video games out there, feel free to play them in this time of global lock-down.


If this is what mad seems like to you, I commend you on a well lived life.

I dunno, this kinda just seems like taking someone's burger off them and pulling it apart to point out that you've seen better bread and better lettuce and better meat and better sauce. Like, yea...ok?

I think a lot of us have had better bread, lettuce, meat and sauce, but this burg still tastes good. Maybe some of us had a craving for this kind of burger and declared it amazing after taking a few bites. Why begrudge them that and barge in to declare fine dining the superior way to eat? Why not just tell us what you did or didn't like about the burger?

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

https://youtu.be/Bat38vErWr4
This is good

Caesar Saladin
Aug 15, 2004

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

the more i think about this game after beating it, the more i realise its such a good game, really just one of the best in a long time.

I actually really enjoyed playing as Abby, she really is one tough broad, she was a badass and just felt really hardened .

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



Pork Pro

It's incredibly good. Still hoping for Factions II. It's gotta happen

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU



Hi, when someone starts out with "This is one of the best games ever made", the only places you can go are "I agree" or "This is how you are wrong". When you say "This is how you are wrong", you aren't attacking their character or summoning the ice float to exile them from the tribe. You are having a discussion. Having discussions is good, sharing opinions is good, and even when people don't agree that doesn't mean there is a problem. This is the entire basis of critical examination of media. Challenging statements isn't an attack, it's a way of seeing if something stands up to probing. For instance I said that a certain gameplay and story moment wasn't unique, and the very first person to come back on that is rocking a game tag of a game that did the exact same thing 3 years ago.

Is that some wild attack on their character or their person? No. Does that mean they have to like [Or dislike] TLoU2 as a game now? No. It means that claim I made stands up, because it was challenged and immediately and comically answered.

Also it's over a week into the thread, and there's the other thread too. The "What was good" part already happened. In short: The gameplay and individual character moments are a highlight for me, the overall story I found weak, and I think it was too long. Overall I'd probably recommend it, depending on what I know of the person asking me. Game good, not great. And again, challenging someone who says it's great doesn't take anything from them. It's just how criticism works.

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Mulva posted:

Hi, when someone starts out with "This is one of the best games ever made", the only places you can go are "I agree" or "This is how you are wrong".

Hello.

Incorrect. You can also go "I disagree" and then expand on that. I mean, you're welcome to try to shine an objective light on this, but I think therein lies the path to folly. Another helpful burger analogy:

If someone declares, "this is one of the best burgers ever made", you can't actually get a meaningful discussion with a retort that begins: "this is how you are wrong."

Mulva posted:

When you say "This is how you are wrong", you aren't attacking their character or summoning the ice float to exile them from the tribe. You are having a discussion. Having discussions is good, sharing opinions is good, and even when people don't agree that doesn't mean there is a problem. This is the entire basis of critical examination of media. Challenging statements isn't an attack, it's a way of seeing if something stands up to probing. For instance I said that a certain gameplay and story moment wasn't unique, and the very first person to come back on that is rocking a game tag of a game that did the exact same thing 3 years ago.

Is that some wild attack on their character or their person? No. Does that mean they have to like [Or dislike] TLoU2 as a game now? No. It means that claim I made stands up, because it was challenged and immediately and comically answered.

Also it's over a week into the thread, and there's the other thread too. The "What was good" part already happened. In short: The gameplay and individual character moments are a highlight for me, the overall story I found weak, and I think it was too long. Overall I'd probably recommend it, depending on what I know of the person asking me. Game good, not great. And again, challenging someone who says it's great doesn't take anything from them. It's just how criticism works.

Also, to the rest of this: do remember that even this back and forth is part of that discussion and by challenging you I am not inferring any of that stuff about attacks on character from what you have said.

Akapursch fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jun 30, 2020

BOAT SHOWBOAT
Oct 11, 2007

who do you carry the torch for, my young man?

Why do goons analogise everything to burgers

Also , best baby in games


In this he says the final MGS4 fight is gratuitous and a better ending would just be Ellie setting Abby free no fight and getting on separate boats, although the image of Ellie alone on the beach is great. I definitely agree

BOAT SHOWBOAT fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Jun 30, 2020

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Akapursch posted:

Incorrect. You can also go "I disagree" and then expand on that.

Oh, so it's a tone argument? Because you described the exact same process in slightly different words.

quote:

If someone declares, "this is one of the best burgers ever made", you can't actually get a meaningful discussion with a retort that begins: "this is how you are wrong."

I mean maybe you can't.

BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

Also , best baby in games

Death Stranding had two better.

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Mulva posted:

Oh, so it's a tone argument? Because you described the exact same process in slightly different words.

No, it's a difference between objective declarative statements and subjectivity.

To expand, I think it's a problem with much criticism (across many areas, entertainment or otherwise). Am I "wrong" for thinking the Fly is the greatest movie ever made?* Am I "wrong" for thinking sushi is the greatest food in the world? Am I "wrong" if I don't enjoy a movie ranked among the greatest ever? I'd argue that it's not actually possible to be wrong about these things.

There's a difference between declaratively stating that I am wrong for considering the Fly the greatest movie and outlining it's strengths and weaknesses in order to demonstrate why you might disagree. It's not about phrasing it politely or in the correct tone.

*Certainly, it is well regarded, but it'll never top the list. I, however, am declaring it the very very best.

Mulva posted:

I mean maybe you can't.

Sassy.

Well, you could try to strain a discussion out of it, but you'd quickly find that you enter the realm of your own personal preferences (or that of your opponents) and so would be sucked into the realm of "I disagree". It sounds like you're conflating opinion and truth, especially given the reference to "tone" above. Saying someone is wrong versus offering your opinion on a disagreement aren't the impolite and polite way of saying the same thing.

Edit: another analogy (sorry, I love 'em): I have a friend who is my favourite person in the world. He is not the best-looking, smartest, most successful, kindest person that exists, but I can't be "wrong" for thinking he's the best and putting him above all others.

Akapursch fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Jun 30, 2020

stev
Jan 22, 2013

Please be excited.





This discussion is incredibly boring ngl



Listening to the podcast where Jim Sterling discussed this and wow he's really off base. Like really did not get it at all.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU


Akapursch posted:

I'd argue that it's not actually possible to be wrong about these things.

.....yes that's how opinions work, it's your viewpoint. You can only lie about having an opinion, you can't actually be wrong about having an opinion. It's how you view things. Someone can't really say "No, you actually don't view things that way.".

quote:

It's not about phrasing it politely or in the correct tone.

You say after having a discussion about how to do the exact same thing in slightly different words. All criticism is subjective, there is no great sky critic that descends from on high to say "No that dude was totally correct, it was about wanting to sleep with his mother". Saying "You are wrong, here's why" and "I disagree, here's why" is the same thing phrased in varying levels of perceived combativeness. There is no material difference in the process, just how you perceive it. And I hate to break it to you, but when you have no objection to a process beyond how it conveys itself, your problem is with.....you could call it a lot of things. But one of them is very much tone. You are having a tone discussion.

That or you don't get that every single loving statement doesn't have to start with imo

Happy Noodle Boy
Jul 3, 2002

Don't fuckle with Shuckle(s)

Like that other Shuckle, but different.


^burtle posted:

At this point it is what like 2040 or something in game? Based on the brief reductions made during quarantine that were tracked back in March my guess is warming wasn’t the issue so much as all the manmade dams and stuff had fallen apart letting the cost reclaim it.

Yeah coastal cities would naturally collapse faster than anything else because of lack of maintenance to any pumping and corrosion. The end of industrialization in 2013 would have probably hold global warming off by a century is not outright avoiding it.

Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Mulva posted:

.....yes that's how opinions work, it's your viewpoint. You can only lie about having an opinion, you can't actually be wrong about having an opinion. It's how you view things. Someone can't really say "No, you actually don't view things that way.".


You say after having a discussion about how to do the exact same thing in slightly different words. All criticism is subjective, there is no great sky critic that descends from on high to say "No that dude was totally correct, it was about wanting to sleep with his mother". Saying "You are wrong, here's why" and "I disagree, here's why" is the same thing phrased in varying levels of perceived combativeness. There is no material difference in the process, just how you perceive it. And I hate to break it to you, but when you have no objection to a process beyond how it conveys itself, your problem is with.....you could call it a lot of things. But one of them is very much tone. You are having a tone discussion.

That or you don't get that every single loving statement doesn't have to start with imo

Ah, in that case I misunderstood you.

My issue wasn't your tone, I sincerely thought you to be arguing to some objectivity to it. Mea culpa.

Edit: made less defensive

Tarnop
Nov 25, 2013

The Corridor of Uncertainty

stev posted:

This discussion is incredibly boring ngl



Listening to the podcast where Jim Sterling discussed this and wow he's really off base. Like really did not get it at all.

He's pretty good at industry analysis, not so much thematic analysis

I also think it's entirely possible that he went into the game already quite sour on it, since he's done so much coverage of ND's workplace culture. At that point it becomes about the game being good enough to justify the abuse of employees, and he's already said (quite rightly in my opinion) that it's not possible for a game to be that.

I don't agree that a game has to justify its development, especially after everything I learned about boycotts not being a silver bullet during the Kickstarter unionisation struggle (see also the article linked today in this thread) but it's a stance I can understand. He spends that much time taking through the muck of this industry that it's bound to start affecting his ability to enjoy games made by its bad actors

mcbexx
Jul 4, 2004

British dentistry is
not on trial here!



Going through some of those "XX INSANE details in The last of us Part II" clips.



"Come to the WLF. We have dental!"

Show of hands - how many of you rode an extra circle through the first patch of thin ice when you came to the river during your patrol early in the game?
I bet they put the larger patch in there on purpose.

One detail I found: Ellie reacts to water pouring down on her.

https://i.imgur.com/0QqWaoZ.mp4

mcbexx fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jun 30, 2020

FiftySeven
Jan 1, 2006


I WON THE BETTING POOL ON TESSAS THIRD STUPID VOTE AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS HALF-ASSED TITLE ok im just adding words to see how much space it can really take up dont forget to delete this




Slippery Tilde

Tarnop posted:

He's pretty good at industry analysis, not so much thematic analysis

When it comes to holding the games industry to account, he is almost always spot on and ahead of the curve, he has genuinely done a lot of great work in that regard, but yeah, his game reviews can definitely be coloured by his prejudice. I still think that his Breath of the wild review was incredibly hypocritical (especially when compared to his glowing praise of Horizon around the same time) but that said, the way many Zelda fans reacted to his opinions was also incredibly childish. In any case, we are better off for him being around.

bewilderment
Nov 22, 2007
man what



BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:

Also , best baby in games

This is Death Stranding erasure.

Vikar Jerome
Nov 26, 2013

I believe Emmanuelle is shit, though Emmanuelle 2, Emmanuelle '77 and Goodbye, Emmanuelle may be very good movies.

mcbexx posted:



"Come to the WLF. We have dental!"

holy poo poo, guess people are losing teeth after all.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

I wrote up some longer-form thoughts if anyone's interested: https://pixelhunted.wordpress.com/2...rt-ii-ps4-2020/

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Akapursch
Feb 16, 2011


Necrothatcher posted:

I wrote up some longer-form thoughts if anyone's interested: https://pixelhunted.wordpress.com/2...rt-ii-ps4-2020/

I like it. Kudos.

The point about the aim of the narrative (where you include Druckmann's quote) is interesting. As I've said, when I switched to Abby, I had a negative reaction; I was now playing someone I didn't like and wasn't invested in. It felt as though the wind had been taken out of the narrative's sails. However, by the end of the story that had completely changed and I was invested in her character, her story and her relation to the main plot (as more than just a target).

Perhaps that could have been achieved without that sense of whiplash, but maybe my experience benefitted overall from that whiplash by creating a distinct contrast with how I felt towards a character at their introduction (as a fully playable character) and how I felt towards them at the conclusion of the story. This also ended up affecting how I veiwed Ellie and Tommy. Overall, I'm thinking it did benefit my experience and I can appreciate the decision to make a player uncomfortable in order to elicit specific emotions. It's been done before, but it's good stuff when it works.

Especially now on a second playthrough where I find myself not dreading Abby's portion of the game (which was one of the first things running through my head when it happened unspoiled; "oh god, I'll have to do this character switch again if I replay")

Akapursch fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jun 30, 2020

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