Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

I don't really remember HotS having a particularly egregious problem with heroes being released overpowered and then nerfed; maybe it occurred after I quit playing(which was when they announced they were loving over the esports division). There were plenty of heroes who released as complete dogshit, like Artanis and Yrel.

HotS charging for heroes seemed almost like a secondary afterthought for them, since all of their predatory money-grabbing design went into HotS 2.0's lootbox system.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Craptacular! posted:

I don't think losing esports killed HOTS because it's really not into "individual skill expression" with most wins or losses being fought over map-specific objectives. I remember one game I won where 9/10 players died but we won the right to launch Mechagodzilla before the wipe and the lone living player on the enemy team was a healer could not stop the mechagodzilla from crushing his team's throne building. We won a game despite all being wiped by having good enough timing to let the AI do the actual work for us. While it was an interesting final clash full of very awesome plays, it would not be an esport moment to be proud of since the map gimmick effectively pushed through the enemy's high ground for us.

People like "big plays" and Heroes forces teamfights that are mostly over small objectives at pre-determined times, and often don't involve ten people all at once, or if they do it's at designated moshing pits. That programmed dynamic of swinging balances makes it less fun to watch high level play. Also, it seemed to launch without any plans for an eSport almost, sorta like Hearthstone, because observer/casting abilities were definitely not well fleshed out when the eSports scene was shitcanned. HOTS had some really amazing hero ideas (that one Zerg support who plays all the lanes while being present in none <3) but it was definitely objecting to the typical MOBA win state that I think is part of what makes Dota and League enjoyable to spectate.

In a way it reminds me a lot of LOL's Nexus Blitz mode. I've had a lot of fun with that, but I wouldn't watch a tournament of it.

Losing esports itself absolutely didn't kill HotS, because HotS's esports scene was comparatively tiny(though it did hugely gently caress over everyone employed in the HotS esports scene with basically no notice or warning despite previous assurances to the contrary). It's just that Blizzard pulled the plug on active HotS support and development and put the game on functional maintenance mode very shortly after officially killing the esports scene, so "HotS esports died" lines up really closely with "HotS died" in the timeline.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Algid posted:

I want to kill Lavos. Need to. It's not a hope or a dream. It's like a hunger. A thirst.

My alt reality wish is that early MTG just printed out entire sets for purchase and established the entire genre as a game first instead of collectables. I think I played Hearthstone like once for half an hour, smoothing out resource gain seems nice but going through the slow tutorial sapped my will to figure out how to construct decks, which is probably for the best. I assume it's monetized even worse than a gacha given that it's a tcg?

Hearthstone is financially similar to every other TCG insofar as if you're looking to compete remotely seriously in constructed play you can look forward to dropping, on average, a couple hundred dollars every single time a new set comes out to ensure you have access to every important card. If you're okay with not being particularly competitive you can skate by for substantially less, but you will almost assuredly not be keeping up with the meta. If you're a pure draft mode warrior, you can play for a whole lot less, but not everyone likes drafts.

There was a controversial update last year which ended up making the game even less generous to f2p players, to boot.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Blaise330 posted:

street fighter 5 launched with no arcade or story mode but slowly became a success overall through patches, having a very forgiving fanbase, constant dev support, and being a 90s franchise thats too big to fully fail. Also dota 2 launched with a million dollar esports tourney. Being a sequel helps cause people had years to fall in love with the franchise casually in the previous game. OW being as big as it was without being a sequel was a huge blown opportunity.

DotA 2 is kind of cheating in this example, because the game started explicitly as a direct port of DotA 1 to a new engine and focused very heavily on achieving almost exact parity with DotA 1 from its conception until a very long time after its release until it finally achieved exact 1:1 content parity, at which point Icefrog finally sunset the old DotA map and started bringing DotA 2 in its own direction.

It's kind of like if Starcraft 2 had just been Brood War on a new engine for the first year or more of its existence before Blizzard started adding unique SC2 things.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Good Dumplings posted:

isn't the point of cod that you can basically be piss-drunk and still play? it and battlefield can be hardcore but I don't think that's what most of their audience is there for, otherwise shooters would be evolutions of quake and ut right now

The general populace really likes the pseudo-realistic oorah military fps. The times that even CoD and BF have dipped into scifi stuff haven't been remotely as popular as guys in camo in a desert or a favela with m16s and ak-47s.

I don't think it's really a matter of being a serious or hardcore game, since counterstrike can be an enormously tryhard game to play and that's still ridiculously popular.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Dick Burglar posted:

Ah yes, the halcyon days of "the brief hype period before Blizzard utterly gave up on developing WoD shortly before it even released." I don't remember, was Kargath surviving the initial encounter ever actually implemented during development, or was it just sound/dialogue files that never got used?

Kargath meets you in the (actually pretty good) intro questline of WoD, which introduces the various Warlords and sets them up. You fight an arena encounter with him involved, escape, and then he gets pissed about you running away; it's actually a decent attempt at setting up an antagonist that the player has a personal history instead of the usual parade of boss candidates such as Lord Vaxulon The Corrupted, Random Guy You've Never Seen Before This Raid Opened.

Then you go to Highmaul and Kargath is there as the first boss of a raid he has almost nothing to do with beyond "there is an arena and Kargath was an arena fighter", you fight him there and kill him permanently, the end.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

mutata posted:

As with most things, the realities are multi-tiered and complex. Were some people turned off by a perceived or actual e-sports focus? Yep. Were some people turned off by the seeming "dumbing down" of mechanics in favor of casual players? Sure. I honestly think that most people, myself included, just... moved on. In that aspect in particular I agree with Blizzard's decision to start work on a sequel or at least a substantial update. Lots of players really like the PvE elements and a campaign is a great way to start to flesh out the characters and extend that aspect of the game, which is obviously a large part of OW's broad appeal. You can argue about timing, sure, and they seem to have decided to smother the remaining enthusiasm for OW1 which is probably an eyebrow-raising decision as you start trying to spin up hype for a sequel, but they've also had a TON of talent drain over the past few years, including leadership roles on the project.

A large part of people "moving on" is because of Blizzard's bungling of their support of the existing product, though. Multiplayer games in the present day live or die in large part based on a perception if the game is being supported and updated or not. HotS is a really good example here - the game is still up and you can play it right now, but as far as the vast majority of players were concerned, it died when they put it on maintenance mode.

You really can't expect a multiplayer game to remain broadly popular nowadays unless you're either releasing a new version constantly(the CoD model) or you're continually pushing updates and new content for the playerbase to consume(the Fortnite model). Blizzard tried to abandon the latter in favor of the former but they are absolutely terrible at actually releasing new products on a timely basis.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

mutata posted:

I don't completely agree generally, but I do agree you can extend the lifespan of a game by supporting it well (obviously). Even Counter-Strike has moved on to a few sequels though.

Games with huge, years long tails are the exception.

I'm not sure I can think of a hugely successful multiplayer game that doesn't get new content/balancing on the regular these days. Even older games like CSGO still get new cosmetics and patches periodically. It's only going to become more common to expect games to constantly have new content being pumped into the players' retinas in the era of Fortnite.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

The Gadfly posted:

I think people need to stop anthropomorpizing companies. Don't get so attached or loyal to them. Great games are made because a group of specific developers worked at the same company in the same time period. It's these developers that people should respect for solely their game-making ability, not the overall behemoth of a company.

It's disgusting when I see people reminiscing about Blizzard like it was an ex.

I don't think anyone in the universe really feels any loyalty to ABK, the giant conglomerate. They feel a sense of lingering attachment to specifically Blizzard Entertainment.

For like the first fifteen years of its existence, Blizzard had a virtually unprecedented record of banger after banger that was almost entirely unmatched in the industry. In terms of products released to products beloved ratio, it was in the running with titans like Nintendo. It's not unreasonable to expect that a company is going to be a reliable source of good products if they build a consistent record over many, many years. The developers are the important part, but in the specific context of Blizzard, they had several high profile, hugely influential developers like Bill Roper and Dave Brevik depart the company during their golden era and the company did not, at the time, seem to be affected overmuch by their departures, which added more oomph to the mythology that it was Blizzard Magic that made their games so successful rather than any individual dev's contributions.

Many people reminisce about Blizzard because Blizzard games were an important part of their lives at one point - a lot of people still playing Blizzard games at this point were people who grew up playing them. It's almost exactly like finding out that your favorite musician was/is a sex creep, or your favorite TV star was/is a domestic abuser; it forces you to reexamine all of those happy memories and recontextualize them in an unpleasant way that taints those memories and makes you wonder if you're somehow hosed up or wrong for ever having liked that person/thing. It's not really weird for people to want to wax nostalgic about "hey remember when we lived in a world where as far as anyone knew Blizzard Entertainment did not sexually harass a woman to the point of suicide", as long as they don't mentally avoid or rewrite the truth in the process.

Kanos fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Sep 30, 2021

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Alkydere posted:

Which step is the horny for Sylvanas added? Lead devs? Smaller writers? Both?

A combination between Chris Metzen's original "all women are built like supermodels and wear either bikinis or skintight outfits" aesthetic, no one at Blizzard in a position of authority having a problem with that aesthetic, and fanbase inertia.

People threw a fit when they added a goddamned leather corset to her ingame model because it covered her midriff.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

cheetah7071 posted:

Lying to investors is the only crime a rich person can commit, because it's a crime against other rich people. Not surprised they're going after actual humans instead of the corporate entity for that.

Yeah if there's any hope for there to be any consequences for anyone out of this entire affair it's the fact that rich investors feel like they've been wronged here. The surest way for a rich person to suffer actual penalties is to screw other rich people.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Regalingualius posted:

On the other hand, if they thought he went too far in his personal life, why didnít they already start looking for a replacement composer years ago? Was his employment contract just that ironclad?

Sugiyama wasn't just a composer, he was also a rich and relatively powerful dude who had a seat on the biggest copyright board in Japan and also owned his own record label. Coupled with his status as "the dragon quest music guy", actively removing him would probably have kicked up a huge controversial shitstorm over an issue that doesn't really seem to be seen as big of a deal in Japan as it is in the west. Most of the "hell yes I'm glad that fucker is dead" stuff is coming from the western audience.

Unfortunately the dude basically had tenure until he willingly retired or keeled over dead.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Arsenic Lupin posted:

Thing is, for Blizzard this has always worked before. They don't have anybody capable of imagining it won't work this time.

Yeah, from what we know this behavior goes back to the early days of the company and has never really been a problem before despite apparently being so endemic they had dudebros getting drunk and sexually harassing people in their cubicles during work hours. If you can get away with poo poo that blatant for so long, it's not hard to imagine someone thinking they can just keep getting away with it.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

chglcu posted:

My linkedin feed has shown about an equal number of people leaving and starting at Blizzard recently. No idea why anyone would actually be joining now, really.

I'm wondering if it's people taking a gamble that the troubles will blow over/be dealt with and if they do you're now set with a position at an established company.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Poil posted:

Does blizzard really care if they completely brain drain all of the programmers and artists etc? Couldn't they just restructure into only having management, marketing and sales to sit on the licenses and subcontract out all the actual work?

The idea is that if they allow every scrap of talent that actually built up the inherent value of those IPs to run away screaming, the value of those IPs will fade and become worthless as it becomes increasingly difficult to produce new entries with that IP that live up to or exceed previous entries. Blizzard in particular already has a glaring example of how easy it is to horribly mismanage and gently caress up a slam dunk with subcontracting with War3 Reforged(which, to be fair, was entirely on Blizzard because the subcontractors they hired were not incompetent).

The present definition of "good business" doesn't give a poo poo about long term investments because they involve sometimes not making zoinks profits every quarter, so yeah they could just turn them into an IP farm house for a few years to squeeze some money out of people who are desperate for Diablo 4 or whatever until people stop caring about the new stuff they're making. For another example of this process, see Bioware!

Kanos fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 26, 2021

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply