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Bad matches, is the discussion? I can add to that! So I just did a breakdown of a bunch of very memorable wrestling matches. It’s time to show off another, that’s memorable for the wrong reasons.  BEASTS OF BURDEN: THE BROCK LESNER/BILL GOLDBERG WRESTLEMANIA XX MATCH Let’s reiterate a few things. One is that people who get into wrestling tend to do it for two reasons: it’s a calling, or it’s a job. Sometimes there’s bleedover (Kurt Angle comes to mind), but inevitably every wrestler’s story is either “I wanted to since I was a kid” or “My football/other sport/other life choice career didn’t work out, so I slipped into pro wrestling”. As said, there’s some disdain for the latter among snooty purists, who feel that they don’t properly ‘respect the business’, but considering how much bleedover there is between ‘respect the business’ and ‘let the business exploit you, grind you down, use you up, then toss you aside’, maybe the latter are the ones who actually GET the business. The other is that there’s two kinds of fans, and the bad ones well and truly can get so far up their own rear end they make their bodies collapse on themselves like some sort of folding space/time black hole mass compression…thing. In terms of entertainment, nothing is worse then those types who feel they have been wronged, insulted, denied, and otherwise not properly entertained, and they’ll let you know that they own you, you owe them, you didn’t hold up your end, and their displeasure is going to be loud, long, strident, and almost certainly lacking in self-awareness. The worst part is, this is the better result for such fans. Otherwise you get poo poo like Gamergate. Still, put a giant amount of such people in one place, and sometimes you can get some truly unique things. Like the time that a post Wrestlemania Raw seized onto Curtis“Fandango” Hussey’s theme song and started vocal-mimickry singing it everywhere, which briefly made it an ear worm meme before of course the WWE stupidly acknowledged it and hence made it immediately lame, or something, maybe these things just burn out super fast by nature. Or as said, the once in a lifetime crowd at Wrestlemania X8 reviving Hulk Hogan’s career from what should have been one last payday before he faded away due to his choices being one of the main causes of the death of a wrestling company. And then, there’s this match.  Goldberg is not a devotee of the business. If you wanted a shining example of “This is a job”, look no further than him. He’s better than some examples of getting hit by lightning and shooting to the top (favored Cornette whipping people Ultimate Warrior and Sable come to mind), but in the end, Bill was in this to make a good living. When WCW died, it made more sense for him to sit at home and collect on his guaranteed contract. Between that, the unique environment that initially shot him to the top, and the WWE’s very notable bad habit of not using stars from other companies well at all… Some people would say Goldberg was ruined when a few weeks after debuting, he did a comedy sketch where he let Dustin “Golddust” Runnels put his wig on him. Some would say it was his first match against the Rock, who, while he took the pin and put him over, proved so much more entertaining in the process that it really drove home who was the bigger star and that Goldberg might well have been the big fish in the small pond. Some would say that it was the fact that Goldberg then spent the next few months farting around fighting Chris Jericho and a few others instead of immediately going for the title, though considering this was Triple H right in the middle of the reign of terror, that was probably a no win situation. Me? I’d say it was clear that Goldberg had been wasted when he was stuck in a six man match at Summerslam for the world title and still ended up the one pinned. After that, there was really no salvaging him. While he got the World Title at the next PPV, he’d only hold it for three months, with his opponents primarily being Triple H still, and he’d drop it back to Triple H in a three way match with Kane where, again, he took the pin. After that, Goldberg basically agreed to have one last feud with Brock Lesner, put him over at Wrestlemania 20, and then leave, his one year contract having been a bust. It seemed like the smart thing to do.  Or maybe not. Because Brock Lesner, you see, was also a ‘job’ person when it came to wrestling. He had no passion for it that drove the likes of Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley, and John Cena. Instead, he was an amateur that slipped into it, having had a very successful amateur wrestling career in college before the WWE noticed the big muscled farm boy and snapped him up. Lesner, as well known now, proved to be a genetic freak with a scary amount of potential, and hence after two years in the WWE-developmental program he was called up to the main roster. Within six months, he was WWE Champion. In a sense, it was likely a classic case of ‘too much, too soon’. Wrestlers do seem to fare better all around if they get a period of seasoning over the course of say, five years, before they start working their way up the ranks. But, again, Lesner was a freak exception, a near three hundred pounder who could pick up and spin around 400/500 pound men and had video clips of him performing a shooting star press in developmental and dark matches. Of course, when he decided to break it out one more time at Wrestlemania 19, circumstances he didn’t consider (sweat on the ring corner pad, for one) resulted in him blowing it and essentially landing on his head.  But hey, he was young. He would only get better, especially considering that his thick neck and shoulders probably saved him from dying or being paralyzed in that botch. His legend potential seemed limitless… Unfortunately, like I said, Lesner saw wrestling as a job. And one nasty aspect of the job is the sheer amount of travel involved. There’s hundreds, maybe thousands, of stories of wrestlers driving countless miles all over the States/the world, rarely having days off, getting very little money for it, and ‘paying their dues’ while trying to get the big break only 2 percent of them will ever get. Lesner never experienced that, and while he had the benefit of mostly flying, it turned out he just couldn’t handle it. Even purchasing his own private plane didn’t alleviate his malcontent over the life he’d found himself in. And so, as Steve Austin was added to the Lesner vs Goldberg match at Wrestlemania 20, and the build basically focused entirely on Lesner and Austin antagonizing each other because Goldberg had worked ‘all his dates’ and wasn’t going to show up any more save for his Wrestlemania match, shocking news emerged the week before the show that Lesner had given his notice and was quitting wrestling to try and break into professional football. The knock on effects of this are essentially still being felt to this day. Lesner had gotten a rocket push that few in the business had ever gotten, and worse, he had, for the most part, connected with the crowd. Now all of that was wasted. The ‘Next Big Thing’ had decided this wasn’t his thing, thanks for buying the tickets, the PPVs, and the shirts, bye bye. I’m pretty sure when Vince saw this play out, it drove into his head that he couldn’t risk it again. That was even further driven in when Bobby Lashley basically did the same thing several years later, taking a bunch of extra build, effort, and attention (he was Donald Trump’s ‘man’ at Wrestlemania 23, FFS) and throwing it away because he didn’t want to work in the environment he was in any more. Hence, the slow decline into 50/50/’just a guy’/no one gets anywhere booking, because drat it, NO ONE is going to waste Vince McMahon’s efforts EVER AGAIN. Never mind that after Brock failed to make it in pro football, and then suddenly had a brief but impressive run in MMA, Vince threw millions at him to come back and kept doing it even as Brock basically just came in, took his money, and barely did anything. I really wonder what goes on in that man’s head. Lashley would return in time too; there’s a fair argument that him leaving was a good thing, and that he needed more years of practice and training and seasoning to really reach his potential, which ended up being larger than most would expect, I’m sure some would say. But at the time, the match had been set. And the ultra smarky crowd had been ready to boo Goldberg out of the building for being Goldberg and leaving. Now BOTH the pair were leaving, and Lesner out of nowhere at that. This was an unforgivable insult, and boy oh boy, if this was going to be both men’s last match, the fans were going to make sure they knew how badly they’d screwed up.  Seriously. No pictures or gifs do this match justice. You have to try and find an unedited version of it to hear just how NASTY the crowd is (hopefully, this will serve). Sean Waltman wishes he could get this kind of “Go away.” heat (if it was something he ever wished for, I doubt he cared for it). And the whole thing about Lesner and Goldberg seeing the wrestling business as ‘a job’ came front and center. The likes of Ric Flair, John Cena, and their ilk would have adapted immediately. To these two, never having had to spend years ‘paying dues’ and having spent most of their time being lauded if not respected, it was so jarring and incomprehensible that it was clear both completely lost the plot. The two would circle each other for like two minutes before even locking up, completely discombobulated over the overwhelming negativity being directed at them. Every move in the match is almost ‘Ikea-like’: there’s no flow, no rhythm, it’s very much a ‘insert tab A into slot B’ in match form, the two men unable to focus under the storm of abuse. In the end, Goldberg won, in a complete reversal of what had been guaranteed to happen until mere days ago. Lesner, probably feeling better than he ever had for what he was about to do, flipped the crowd off.  Special ref Austin promptly gave him a Stunner. Then Goldberg shared a beer with the man he never actually got to wrestle, a dream match lost to the ages...and then Austin gave him a Stunner as well. It was pretty much the only thing they COULD do to salvage ANYTHING from this. Hence went the Wrestlemania XX match between Lesner and Goldberg. To paraphrase an old saying, hell hath no fury like a fandom scorned.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:23
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And Austin then was gone either the next Friday or the one after that.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:38
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Oh yeah, THAT. In the latter half of 2003, Austin was sharing the on air position of General Manager with Eric Bischoff (this was when he started driving that ATV around), and generally what he'd do is give heels Stunners. The heels didn't like this, so eventually there was a Survivor Series match where if Austin's team lost, he got fired. Then Mick Foley took his job and began petitioning to get Austin reinstated. So Austin came back at the very end of 2003, not as a co-GM, but as 'Sheriff'...which meant he drove around on an ATV and gave heels Stunners. Yet despite this, he became inconsistent in his appearances after becoming "The Sheriff", whereas as co-GM he'd been on Raw every week, and then after Wrestlemania 20, he did indeed disappear entirely for a year, only showing up again at Wrestlemania 21 with his 'Sheriff' role completely ignored and forgotten.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:44
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spaceblancmange posted:oh, you didn't know? I'm still curious about what they meant by that. Like...know what?
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Apr 13, 2022 18:19
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Cornwind Evil posted:Me? I’d say it was clear that Goldberg had been wasted when he was stuck in a six man match at Summerslam for the world title and still ended up the one pinned. After that, there was really no salvaging him. This really shows what an odd case Goldberg was because it was really all or nothing with the guy. For context, this match was the Elimination Chamber. Goldberg was the fifth entrant with only one guy eliminated by that point. Goldberg then proceeded to singlehandedly wipe out Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, and Chris Jericho in minutes. Triple H was the last entrant and had to cheat his rear end off to win, knocking Goldberg out with a sledgehammer. Triple H retained, only to lose the title to Goldberg at the next PPV. Then Goldberg not only retained in a rematch, but he singlehandedly fought off all of Evolution. But that still wasn't considered enough for Goldberg and people still argue that WWE dropped the ball on him.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:24
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Queering Wheel posted:I'm still curious about what they meant by that. Like...know what? haha look everyone this guy needs to call someone!! I’ll give you the number
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Apr 13, 2022 20:28
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Apr 14, 2022 00:17
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Still think Billy Gunn was best in the business at taking a hiptoss Edit: Literally in wrestling school they taught us early on taking a hiptoss with a flip bump, but then added "If you want to go the extra mile, you can do the Billy Gunn sell" which was basically jumping upward and pushing your chest/head/neck out and up on the first part, then continuing the flip bump. Looked great, but if you were uncoordinated could definitely end in a broken neck. TheSwizzler fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 01:28
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Lashley also left because Michael Hayes (among others) is racist, and he was sick of dealing with that poo poo.
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Apr 14, 2022 04:05
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Davros1 posted:Lashley also left because Michael Hayes (among others) is racist, and he was sick of dealing with that poo poo. Figures. Of COURSE Vince directs the blame to the wrong place, like any good psychopath always will. Gavok posted:For context, this match was the Elimination Chamber. Goldberg was the fifth entrant with only one guy eliminated by that point. Goldberg then proceeded to singlehandedly wipe out Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, and Chris Jericho in minutes. Triple H was the last entrant and had to cheat his rear end off to win, knocking Goldberg out with a sledgehammer. Triple H retained, only to lose the title to Goldberg at the next PPV. Then Goldberg not only retained in a rematch, but he singlehandedly fought off all of Evolution. It's kind of like when people complain in Man of Steel that "Superman murdered the villain." It completely strips out the wider context of the scene and basically wholly misrepresents it, but unfortunately, if you feel negatively, that's all you see. Same case here.
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Apr 14, 2022 05:19
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Cornwind Evil posted:Oh yeah, THAT. For a little more context, this is around the time that Austin was having pretty bad substance abuse issues and was going through marital and legal problems. (This was also when he was so erratic that he walked out on WWE because he refused to lose clean to Lesnar on free TV, arguing that it deserved a PPV build. He was probably right, but he was also beating up his wife at that time, sooooo...)
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Apr 14, 2022 07:04
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thank you for permabanning the vince russo liker
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Apr 14, 2022 07:26
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Ladies and gentlemen: The Attitude Era
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Apr 14, 2022 10:27
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spaceblancmange posted:Ladies and gentlemen: The Attitude Era Hell yeah
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Apr 14, 2022 12:30
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spaceblancmange posted:Ladies and gentlemen: The Attitude Era the dee oh double gee
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Apr 14, 2022 12:45
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RIP Trolologist. A mark who worked himself into his final shoot.
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Apr 14, 2022 12:45
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requesting a post on the rise and fall of trolologist
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Apr 14, 2022 12:47
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never work yourself into a shoot, brother
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Apr 14, 2022 18:56
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he just refused to break kayfabe dude
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Apr 14, 2022 22:28
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It's still real to me, dammit!
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Apr 14, 2022 22:33
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As AEW Dynamite started airing, the very first match was Cody Rhodes vs. Sammy Guevara (who also wrestled and lost the first ever singles match in AEW history at Double or Nothing). Between the aftermath of that match and the main event of Omega and the Young Bucks vs. Chris Jericho, Santana, and Ortiz, the company’s big heel faction the Inner Circle took form. By the end of the show, Jericho, Santana, Ortiz, Guevara, and Jake Hager all stood tall over the beaten Elite members, as well as Dustin Rhodes. Elite vs. Inner Circle was the big feud created out of Dynamite’s debut, but complications between the Elite, Cody Rhodes, and real life would dramatically alter what was supposed to be the big blow-off. One storyline starting up in AEW was Hangman living with his failure to be the first AEW champion. He felt that he no longer belonged in the Elite and tried to walk away from it. What feels weird in all of this is seeing a segment on BTE of Cody showing understanding and trying to talk him out of it. This was one of the last times we’d ever see Hangman and Cody on screen together. It made sense that there were problems on the Elite side of things. On paper, they outnumbered the Inner Circle. Inner Circle had a concrete five members, but the Elite was five guys with the addition of their allies like Brandon Cutler, Michael Nakazawa, Dustin Rhodes, and MJF. Hell, even though the fans could tell that MJF’s turn on Cody was sooner than later, his moments of having Cody’s back got him massive reactions. But Hangman was reluctant to get involved and Kenny Omega had feuds going on with Jon Moxley and Pac, so he wasn’t always there to help. Cody Rhodes vs. Chris Jericho at Full Gear existed for several reasons. One, it expanded on the feud between the Elite and the Inner Circle. Two, it introduced the stipulation that if Cody lost, he would never be able to challenge for the AEW Championship ever again, a way for Cody to presumably keep himself at bay in terms of booking himself as the top guy. Three, it was how MJF would finally turn on Cody and become 100% heel. MJF threw in the towel to give Cody his monumental loss and played it up as a moment of concerned friendship before just kicking the poo poo out of him. From there, Cody became focused on feuding with MJF. He no longer seemed to have anything going on with the Elite or the Inner Circle, other than having the Young Bucks throw MJF into a pool one time. In fact, he was appearing on BTE less and less as time went on. During this time, he brought in QT Marshall as his new ally and fans came to like him immediately due to his bizarre style of “dumpy dude who can surprisingly do flippy poo poo.” MJF introduced his own bodyguard in Wardlow (a jacked dude introduced via vignette months earlier) and hired guns the Butcher and the Blade. The other four members of the Elite were busy with their own drama as Hangman and Omega became tag champs and Hangman was annoyed by the ever-present Young Bucks and afraid that they were going to eventually dethrone them. This led to a tag match at Revolution, where despite the tense aftermath, cooler heads were prevailing for now. The Inner Circle became focused on Jon Moxley, who would go through all of them one-by-one and become AEW Champion. He defeated Jericho at Revolution. Cody vs. MJF was also at Revolution and this is considered the big turning point in how people started to perceive Cody. He showed up for an interview days before, but with a towel over his neck, leading people to fear the worst. Their fears were realized: he had really gone and got a loving tattoo of his American Nightmare logo on the side of his neck. Even Brandi seemed to be disturbed by this. Cody revealed his new tattoo while Downstait played him to the ring. Just a cocktail of garbage. Cody would lose to MJF, but the feud would end there. The whole thing felt like a gigantic reset so they could go back to Elite vs. Inner Circle. A gigantic match was announced for an episode of Dynamite in Newark. See, Vince McMahon once downplayed AEW’s efforts by referring to the show as “blood and guts.” Cody wanted to bring back WarGames, a team-based cage match his father had invented. As WWE owned the rights to the name, Cody had the AEW counterpart called Blood and Guts. They were going to have Cody, Omega, Hangman, and the Young Bucks vs. the Inner Circle. This was presumably going to be the big blow-off match. And then...COVID hit. On the next episode of Dynamite, in the empty Jacksonville arena (where they would do most shows for the next year and a half), Cody cut a promo about the uncertainty of the future. He and his teammates acted like the match would still be happening, but in time, that would not be the truth. As sketchy as having wrestling shows already was, no way could you do a match involving ten men and at least one referee in a confined space. On that first COVID show, the main event was a six-man tag featuring members of the Elite against the Inner Circle. That would be the final time Cody would team up with any of those guys. A week or so later, Matt Hardy would debut in AEW and would antagonize Chris Jericho. When it came time for the next PPV, Double or Nothing, Matt Hardy was taking Cody’s spot in the Elite vs. Inner Circle’s AMAZING Stadium Stampede match. Cody, on the other hand, had found a way around his inability to challenge for the world title. If there’s one singles title and you can’t have it... why not just create a new one? More on that next time. So, during all of this, where was Brandi? Now it’s time to talk about the awfulness of the Nightmare Collective. Brandi basically wanted to be doing something on AEW TV, but didn’t want to be stuck in the spot of “Cody’s wife.” She wanted her own thing. In the pre-Dynamite time, she did a match with Allie where she had Awesome Kong in her corner, running interference for her. It made sense, sure. Early in Dynamite, Brandi and Kong would attack random women and cut off pieces of their hair. When an interviewer asked about this, Brandi had this very awkward and hammy reaction where she just angrily and psychotically pointed at her and got in her face before it cut to the next segment. Nobody knew what the gently caress that was supposed to be. A third member was added named Mel, who was initiated into the Nightmare Collective via shaving her head during a commercial break segment. She was dogshit in the ring despite having like 15 years experience. Shortly after, they brought in Dr. Luther, an aging and obscure death match guy who was friends with Chris Jericho. While he would later find some success as a comedy tag team jobber, Luther was both annoying and confusing because who the hell was he supposed to fight when the storylines were based on the women’s division? They never did a good job explaining what their deal was and to make matters worse, they started hurting the show itself. One time Dynamite had a match of Hikaru Shida vs. Kris Statlander, which was one of the more exciting possible matchups with that roster. Said match had Brandi on commentary, making GBS threads on Statlander’s gimmick, making GBS threads on commentator Excalibur for wearing a mask, and just being awful. Then the Nightmare Collective got involved and ruined the match itself. Fans were pissed. At the end of the day, the Nightmare Collective was supposed to be a vehicle for Awesome Kong while giving Brandi something to do. Unfortunately, Kong was too broken down to actually wrestle anymore and had to sit back. Shida and Statlander teamed up against Brandi and Mel, showing how limited and pointless this team truly was. AEW has been very good about assessing storylines and gimmicks that aren’t working great. Usually, they can alter things and figure out how to make it work. Turning the Dark Order from the show’s weak point heel stable to the champion’s doofus clubhouse is an example. The Nightmare Collective was just hated by everyone and they quietly pulled the plug on it in two ways. One, Brandi appeared in a couple online vignettes that showed her getting therapy and setting her Nightmare Collective gear on fire. Two, Mel and Luther kicked Kong out of the group on an episode of AEW Dark and that was the last time we’d see her. Mel didn't last much longer either. Up next: The rapping genie tags in.
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Apr 15, 2022 03:46
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My brother and I were big Steve Blackman guys
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Apr 15, 2022 04:32
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Gavok posted:They never did a good job explaining what their deal was and to make matters worse, they started hurting the show itself. One time Dynamite had a match of Hikaru Shida vs. Kris Statlander, which was one of the more exciting possible matchups with that roster. Said match had Brandi on commentary, making GBS threads on Statlander’s gimmick, making GBS threads on commentator Excalibur for wearing a mask, and just being awful. Then the Nightmare Collective got involved and ruined the match itself. Fans were pissed. It was Riho versus Stat for the title and yes I am still pissed about it. 
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Apr 15, 2022 04:49
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Idiot Kicker posted:My brother and I were big Steve Blackman guys He looked badass while he was doing his martial arts shtick    Also, lmao 
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Apr 15, 2022 04:50
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Idiot Kicker posted:My brother and I were big Steve Blackman guys STEVE loving BLACKMAN! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEaWKzq8iF0 Vandar posted:It was Riho versus Stat Oh right. The Shida/Stat team-up afterwards confused me. I miss Riho.
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Apr 15, 2022 04:58
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Gavok posted:STEVE loving BLACKMAN! Hell yeah Blackman They always tried to pair him with goofy guys and it probably would have gotten over with Grandmaster if he hadn't got himself arrested
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Apr 15, 2022 05:12
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Ernest "The Cat" Miller was my favorite karate guy because he was just Bischoff's son's karate teacher and Eric was like "hey wanna be on Monday Nitro and team up with a Sub-Zero ripoff to fight a bunch of skeleton guys every week?" and that just became his life overnight. I think that's the dream
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Apr 15, 2022 05:13
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Gavok posted:STEVE loving BLACKMAN! I remember this guy. Badass. Kind of shocked to learn that he never made it really big. Was he just too early to his particular gimmick? ... I guess he does MMA and teaches MMA, but doesn't have any big MMA championship titles to throw around for added cred like Lesnar does.
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Apr 15, 2022 05:18
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Blurry Gray Thing posted:I remember this guy. Badass. From what I remember, Blackman's career was cut short by chronic migraines and stuff like that. I couldn't find anything to support that, but that's what I remember from the time Idiot Kicker fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Apr 15, 2022 |
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Apr 15, 2022 05:46
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Idiot Kicker posted:My brother and I were big Steve Blackman guys steve blackman owned
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Apr 15, 2022 06:43
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16-bit Butt-Head posted:steve blackman owned
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Apr 15, 2022 06:49
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FilthyImp posted:Found it odd that Shamrock and Blackman weren't either a tag team or rivals but maybe they missed each other for some reason. Shamrock and Blackman did have a feud in the summer of 1999.
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Apr 15, 2022 08:41
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Steve Blackman was cool but he was boring in the ring and had no charisma. And for some reason they never put him with anyone who could talk for him. That would've helped a lot.
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Apr 15, 2022 16:06
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Blurry Gray Thing posted:I remember this guy. Badass. He was actually signed by the WWF in 1989, but when finishing up some pre-existing booked indie dates, he contracted malaria in South Africa and was bed-ridden for two years, then had to spend another four years in physical therapy.
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Apr 15, 2022 16:11
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When the WWE Network started up, Blackman wanted to star in his own version of Dog the Bounty Hunter, but it never got past the pilot.
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Apr 15, 2022 16:32
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I'd watch a Road Dogg the Bounty Hunter show...  
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Apr 16, 2022 02:20
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Those 3 gifs comprise his entire offense
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Apr 16, 2022 16:00
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Did his offence ever change in TNA when he was apart of the VKM? I never watched TNA.
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Apr 16, 2022 19:37
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Elephant Ambush posted:Steve Blackman was cool but he was boring in the ring and had no charisma. And for some reason they never put him with anyone who could talk for him. That would've helped a lot. This is Al Snow/Head Cheese erasure
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Apr 16, 2022 19:53
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blunt posted:This is Al Snow/Head Cheese erasure Al Snow, famous for all those memorable and compelling promos
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Apr 16, 2022 20:27
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