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Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Ever wondered about a sports story but don't want to watch the sport to find out more about it? This is the thread for you.

"But I can just go into the thread of the sport and ask!"

Sure you can do that. But people there may have discussed the issue to death or maybe it's the offseason and they're busy talking about barbecue or maybe it's the regular season and they're busy talking about BBQ. This way you know you're going to post in a place where people are explicitly looking to answer questions.

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Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I'll start.

Question: What is the deal with PGA vs LIV. Why are people saying things that sound like they're talking about WWE vs WCW from the 90s? Can this really "ruin the Ryder Cup forever?" Whatever that means?

Mr-Spain
Aug 27, 2003

Bullshit... you can be mine.

How lax is the traveling rule in the NBA? Sometimes it seems they're taking like 4-5 steps before a layup or whatever.

Hirez
Feb 3, 2003

Weber scored 49 points?

:allears: :allears: :allears:


Have many college players actually made a ton of money with the new rules where they can get sponsorships or whatever? or is it just an elite few? although with booster clubs being a thing...

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Mr-Spain posted:

How lax is the traveling rule in the NBA? Sometimes it seems they're taking like 4-5 steps before a layup or whatever.

Itís pretty lax.

The rule as written in the NBA as of 2022 is already very permissive compared to college. You are allowed two steps after ďthe gatherď which is to try and be concise if not precise, is the action of picking up your dribble to do something with it. In the past they had a much simpler rule of ď1.5 steps after a dribbleĒ that didnít take 3 paragraphs to explain why they were basically allowing a second step but the vagueness upset people so now there is the current one.

Which they still frequently ignore. Itís just not where refs eyes usually are.

But of course they are pretty strict about dragging of a pivot foot in the post for some reason (which is really funny when you start to notice that they have stopped calling double dribble on the perimeter, too, unless the defense is really in a dudeís face).

go for a stroll
Sep 10, 2003

you'll never make it out alive









Pillbug

Rick posted:

But of course they are pretty strict about dragging of a pivot foot in the post for some reason (which is really funny when you start to notice that they have stopped calling double dribble on the perimeter, too, unless the defense is really in a dude’s face).

Is the purpose of the double dribble call to keep you from holding the ball to prevent a turnover, then dribbling again to maneuver when the pressure is off? I never really understood the rule but that would explain not calling it when there's no pressure, right? It would be sort of pointless to make you keep dribbling in place when there's no risk in doing so and no benefit in stopping.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


go for a stroll posted:

Is the purpose of the double dribble call to keep you from holding the ball to prevent a turnover, then dribbling again to maneuver when the pressure is off? I never really understood the rule but that would explain not calling it when there's no pressure, right? It would be sort of pointless to make you keep dribbling in place when there's no risk in doing so and no benefit in stopping.

It also forces the dribbler to commit. They can't stop dribbling then see an opening and start dribbling again. This would exist even if there is no pressure, especially if the dribble is indecisive.

Coco13
Jun 6, 2004

My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.


Hirez posted:

Have many college players actually made a ton of money with the new rules where they can get sponsorships or whatever? or is it just an elite few? although with booster clubs being a thing...

The biggest issue with name, image and likeness (NIL) rules in college are that the NCAA has not made any guidelines or rules or really much of anything around NIL. They had decades to put something together. Decades! When the Supreme Court said ďthis is insane and would be patently illegal in any other marketĒ last year, the NCAA just kind of left everyone hanging.

As it stands now, thereís been a handful of big deals geared mainly for the top QBís at the biggest schools. Overwhelmingly, it seems that most of the deals are between either a local campus spot and an athlete, or an athlete posting a referral link for a smaller company trying to get more buzz. Thatís for more straightforward marketing, but thereís other opportunities that NIL has helped clear the path for. Someone on Wisconsinís volleyball team got into making sand art, and in order to sell it had to get her site vetted by compliance and strip out any mention of Wisconsin or her athletics before NIL happened. A few years ago a punter had to take down his decently profitable YouTube channel of trick shots to be eligible to play. That wouldnít be the case now.

Booster clubs are still figuring this out as well. As simple as it seems to have a group of rich people pool money together to entice the best athletes to play, they donít have any guidance either. If they give someone $25,000 to come to campus, and they donít, they canít get that back. Heck, odds are really good in a year weíll have a couple booster pools fold due to embezzlement or other poor money management.

Making things more difficult for coaching staffs, players can now transfer without sitting out the following year once. If that booster pool stiffs an athlete, they might be jilted into going somewhere else.

Iíd say the most important takeaway is that looking at the athletes making more money based on how culturally important their sport/position/school is only works at the highest echelons. Otherwise, itís a bunch of microinfluencers making some extra money, or people with existing hobbies able to monetize them easier.

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007




Rick posted:

I'll start.

Question: What is the deal with PGA vs LIV. Why are people saying things that sound like they're talking about WWE vs WCW from the 90s? Can this really "ruin the Ryder Cup forever?" Whatever that means?

LIV is basically a startup golf league looking to modernize the game and the presentation thereof. They're throwing gargantuan paychecks to PGA players because it's also backed by an endless amount of Saudi blood money hoping to whitewash the country's image.

The PGA has responded by banning anyone playing on the LIV tour from their own events. This notably does not include the major tournaments (like the US Open played over the weekend, that's run by the USGA) aside from the PGA Championship.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Kibner posted:

It also forces the dribbler to commit. They can't stop dribbling then see an opening and start dribbling again. This would exist even if there is no pressure, especially if the dribble is indecisive.

Yeah the moments where I've started to notice it are moments of indecisiveness where guys thought they were going to pass, looked around, couldn't find anyone to pass to, then just started dribbling again. I think go for a stroll is right that it's not creating a huge advantage for the player though and I guess technically refs always can fall back on only blowing whistles when an advantage for a team is created. I've not seen anyone other than Chris Paul ever even point it out when the opposing players do it.

DJExile posted:

LIV is basically a startup golf league looking to modernize the game and the presentation thereof. They're throwing gargantuan paychecks to PGA players because it's also backed by an endless amount of Saudi blood money hoping to whitewash the country's image.

The PGA has responded by banning anyone playing on the LIV tour from their own events. This notably does not include the major tournaments (like the US Open played over the weekend, that's run by the USGA) aside from the PGA Championship.

Thank you, this makes sense.

fast cars loose anus
Mar 2, 2007

Your 2017 World Series MVP




Pillbug

It's worth pointing out that a huge reason LIV is so disruptive is that the Saudis are paying these golfers gigantic amounts of money just to show up, and then they can win tournament money too. In the PGA all your money comes from either tourney performances or endorsements, I believe. Phil Mickelson could place dead last by 50 strokes in every LIV tournament ever and he'll still have 200 million dollars in his pocket.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

That makes me think, are golf fans tuning in for the stars or is the sport the draw?

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007




Rick posted:

That makes me think, are golf fans tuning in for the stars or is the sport the draw?

If tiger woods is in an event he draws enormous crowds and viewership on his own. Beyond that, itís probably more the sport itself. The stars sometimes have their own way of attacking the course but by and wide the sport itself sends more of the draw. As with many sports now though the players are slowly showing more of their own personalities and that has helped

Trillhouse
Dec 31, 2000



It's rumored that Tiger was offered $1 billion. Billion, with a B. Absolutely insane amounts of (blood) money coming from the Saudis.

fast cars loose anus
Mar 2, 2007

Your 2017 World Series MVP




Pillbug

Rick posted:

That makes me think, are golf fans tuning in for the stars or is the sport the draw?

We're likely to find out given that the Saudis are betting on the first one and the PGA is betting on the second one (out of necessity really but nevertheless)

Declan MacManus
Sep 1, 2011

damn i'm really in this bitch



i think there are courses that really draw people in to golf among the older set, but if f1 is anything to go by, the newer generation doesnít really care where a sport is played as long as itís interesting (provided that the geography has an effect on the competition, natch)

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008


What's it going to take for underhanded free throws to take off in the NBA? They say it's more accurate. In a league where games are decided by two point margins it could change outcomes.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


I would blow Dane Cook posted:

What's it going to take for underhanded free throws to take off in the NBA? They say it's more accurate. In a league where games are decided by two point margins it could change outcomes.

For a player everyone respects to do it.

Presto
Nov 22, 2002

Keep calm and Harry on.


Kibner posted:

For a player everyone respects to do it.

Wilt Chamberlain did it, but that's because his free throw shooting was abysmal.

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

What's it going to take for underhanded free throws to take off in the NBA? They say it's more accurate. In a league where games are decided by two point margins it could change outcomes.

Along with what Kibner said, it's also impractical from a "teaching mechanics" standpoint because in general unless you're already a very good shooter, you probably want one simple motion you can repeat from anywhere on the floor, rather than shooting one way from the free throw line, one way from the three, etc. Throw in that most of the players are like 70-85% shooters in a practice setting (including people like Dwight Howard), doing a motion that some may consider embarrassing in front of 30,000 people on live TV may cause players to miss underhand for the same reason they are missing normal shots.

KICK BAMA KICK
Mar 2, 2009



Why are sign-and-trades a thing in the NBA, like is the guy not exactly becoming a "free agent" the way the other sports work so the team still holds some leverage over him?

Actually if there's a good overall "idiot's guide to how NBA contracts and rosters work" that would help cause like ~4 years into trying to get back into watching it I am still often confused about this stuff.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


KICK BAMA KICK posted:

Why are sign-and-trades a thing in the NBA, like is the guy not exactly becoming a "free agent" the way the other sports work so the team still holds some leverage over him?

Actually if there's a good overall "idiot's guide to how NBA contracts and rosters work" that would help cause like ~4 years into trying to get back into watching it I am still often confused about this stuff.

There is a lot and I don't remember enough of it to lay out good examples. Most people's go-to when asking questions about this kind of thing for the NBA is this link: http://cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

fast cars loose anus
Mar 2, 2007

Your 2017 World Series MVP




Pillbug

If you're really interested in NBA contract minutia you can get lost for days in that site but the short answer is "soft caps rather than hard caps make for weird rules"

Also generally speaking a sign and trade is done with a player who might otherwise either walk for nothing or not bring back as much in a straight up trade

Stiev Awt
Mar 20, 2007


What's the difference between a small and power forward?

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004




Stiev Awt posted:

What's the difference between a small and power forward?

Not much in the NBA now, where most forwards are like 6'7" to 6'9" guys who can guard multiple positions and shoot threes because you need multiple guys who can switch on defense, but traditionally the power forward (the 4) was a big, beefy person whose job was rebounding and interior scoring and, in the 1990s, elbowing people whereas the small forward (3) was traditionally a quicker player with more ball handling and jump shooting responsibilities but even so the roles in basketball were never that rigidly defined.

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

How does NFL defensive play calling work? I get that the Defensive Coordinator radios the play to the designated player, and then based off of that they line up the defense. But who is typically responsible for doing the audible after that? I assume they're given a general play based on scouting but often have to change it up based on how the offense lines up? Is there just typically a playcaller who calls the audible on defense based on how they see the offense line up? And how is that person chosen?

nawilo_420
Nov 24, 2021
:redflag:


If i fully commit my life to curling, in how many years will i be able to go to the olympics? Same but for archery.

Waroduce
Aug 5, 2008


Ginette Reno posted:

How does NFL defensive play calling work? I get that the Defensive Coordinator radios the play to the designated player, and then based off of that they line up the defense. But who is typically responsible for doing the audible after that? I assume they're given a general play based on scouting but often have to change it up based on how the offense lines up? Is there just typically a playcaller who calls the audible on defense based on how they see the offense line up? And how is that person chosen?

Play calling is generally personnel or situation driven. This action chain excludes hurry up offense.

1. The offense runs a play on the field.

2. After the play, the offense will substitute some players for other players.

3. Defense is given some small amount of time to make their own substitutions.

4. While the subs are happening the defensive coordinator is examining the offensive personnel set coming onto the field with respect to down and distance and team tendency to make a defensive play call

4a. The offense presents 22 personnel (2 backs / 2 te's)

4b. The defensive coordinator will generally answer by subbing their personnel appropriately to match the offensive package. So if I have 22 on the field (2 backs / 2 TE's) that's a pretty beefy package ususally so I'm going to go ahead and put maybe an extra defensive lineman on or possibly a standard 4-3 package.

4c. Once the personnel package is jogging onto the field the D.Coordinator will consider the type of players the offense has (how fast are the wideouts?), the down and distance (is it 3rd and short or 3rd and long for an easy run/pass question and answer) as well as team tendencies (they always run Power right out of their 22 package) to than make a call to the players on the field. This call is communicated directly to a LB or S with the defensive mic in their helmet (a match for the radio the qb has).

5. Coaches and Players will be aware of the play swaps for a specific play. For example, if the offense sends someone in motions, audibles to a max protect or anything, the defense has a short list of hot swappable plays that typically include blitz, coverage and run stopping options. So I might come out in a very aggressive blitz out of my 4-3, but the offense splits the TE's out with motion and one of them is uncovered, I would expect my defensive playcaller (LB/S) to audible my defense out of the blitz package into a run stopping package.

6. QB snaps ball 3-8 seconds of carefully scripted chaos.

feel free to as follow ups

Ginette Reno
Nov 18, 2006

The more you temper a stick, the stronger it becomes

Fun Shoe

Waroduce posted:

Play calling is generally personnel or situation driven. This action chain excludes hurry up offense.

5. Coaches and Players will be aware of the play swaps for a specific play. For example, if the offense sends someone in motions, audibles to a max protect or anything, the defense has a short list of hot swappable plays that typically include blitz, coverage and run stopping options. So I might come out in a very aggressive blitz out of my 4-3, but the offense splits the TE's out with motion and one of them is uncovered, I would expect my defensive playcaller (LB/S) to audible my defense out of the blitz package into a run stopping package.

feel free to as follow ups

Thanks, that answers a lot.

Is the play caller on the field always a LB/S? Are those positions expected to have those skills when they're drafted?

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Waroduce posted:

Play calling is generally personnel or situation driven. This action chain excludes hurry up offense.

1. The offense runs a play on the field.

2. After the play, the offense will substitute some players for other players.

3. Defense is given some small amount of time to make their own substitutions.

4. While the subs are happening the defensive coordinator is examining the offensive personnel set coming onto the field with respect to down and distance and team tendency to make a defensive play call

4a. The offense presents 22 personnel (2 backs / 2 te's)

4b. The defensive coordinator will generally answer by subbing their personnel appropriately to match the offensive package. So if I have 22 on the field (2 backs / 2 TE's) that's a pretty beefy package ususally so I'm going to go ahead and put maybe an extra defensive lineman on or possibly a standard 4-3 package.

4c. Once the personnel package is jogging onto the field the D.Coordinator will consider the type of players the offense has (how fast are the wideouts?), the down and distance (is it 3rd and short or 3rd and long for an easy run/pass question and answer) as well as team tendencies (they always run Power right out of their 22 package) to than make a call to the players on the field. This call is communicated directly to a LB or S with the defensive mic in their helmet (a match for the radio the qb has).

5. Coaches and Players will be aware of the play swaps for a specific play. For example, if the offense sends someone in motions, audibles to a max protect or anything, the defense has a short list of hot swappable plays that typically include blitz, coverage and run stopping options. So I might come out in a very aggressive blitz out of my 4-3, but the offense splits the TE's out with motion and one of them is uncovered, I would expect my defensive playcaller (LB/S) to audible my defense out of the blitz package into a run stopping package.

6. QB snaps ball 3-8 seconds of carefully scripted chaos.

feel free to as follow ups

How do you even learn how to do this? Is this just part of playing organized football that you learn what counters what? Even playing NCAA Football a ton I'm still guessing most of the time what defense to run.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012


Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.





Wedge Regret

Ginette Reno posted:

Thanks, that answers a lot.

Is the play caller on the field always a LB/S? Are those positions expected to have those skills when they're drafted?

Itís almost always a linebacker (Often inside or middle depending on the defensive scheme) or a safety since theyíll usually be in the field the most.

Rick posted:

How do you even learn how to do this? Is this just part of playing organized football that you learn what counters what? Even playing NCAA Football a ton I'm still guessing most of the time what defense to run.

Growing up, I learned a lot of this from old NFL Films stuff where theyíd get much more Xís and Oís on stuff. Also, as much as people will often mock poor color commentators or simply tune them out, good ones will explain some basic elements of this stuff. John Madden was great for a lot of that for years.

pseudodragon
Jun 16, 2007




fartknocker posted:

Itís almost always a linebacker (Often inside or middle depending on the defensive scheme) or a safety since theyíll usually be in the field the most.

They are also the ones positioned near the center of the play so they have a good view of what's happening and are in position to signal people. Like a corner off to one side would have a hard time reading the far side and a dlineman might have a giant dude stuck in his face blocking his view.

Full Collapse
Dec 4, 2002



Iíve been out of football for ages. What exactly is an edge linebacker?

R.D. Mangles
Jan 10, 2004




Full Collapse posted:

Iíve been out of football for ages. What exactly is an edge linebacker?

It's a defensive end or linebacker that primarily rushes the passer.

Ginger Beer Belly
Aug 18, 2010





Grimey Drawer

Full Collapse posted:

Iíve been out of football for ages. What exactly is an edge linebacker?

Nowadays, the term is generally "Edge", not "Edge Linebacker". The reason for the term is that the role of being the person opposite the edge of the offensive line, on or near the line of scrimmage is called a different position in traditional terminology depending on the type of defense.

In a 4-3 defense, the 4 refers to the number of defensive linemen: two defensive tackles, and two defensive ends, while the 3 refers to the number of linebackers: a middle linebacker, and two outside linebackers who are usually a few yards off the line of scrimmage. In this style of defense, the "Edge" players are the two defensive ends.

In a 3-4 defense, the 3 refers to the number of defensive linement: one defensive tackle commonly referred to as the nose tackle, and two defensive ends. The 4 refers to the number of linebackers: two inside linebackers and two outside linebackers who usually line up right on the line of scrimmage, or just a couple lines off. In this style of defense, the "Edge" players are the two outside linebackers.

The traditional listing of a player or prospect's position as a Defensive End or a Linebacker can be ambiguous when trying to describe a player who is primarily going to line up on or near the line of scrimmage, on or outside of the offensive tackle, and perform pass rushes from the edge of the line. The idea of calling such a player an "Edge" player better describes their skillset whether they'll be doing that from a 4-3 Defensive End position, or from a 3-4 Outside Linebacker position.

Von Miller is a great example. He's a prototypical "Edge" player who has been an Outside Linebacker in the Broncos and Rams 3-4 schemes, but now that he's in Buffalo, he'll likely be considered a Defensive End in their 4 linemen scheme, even though he's performing the same function as he has his entire career.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

This is why we have orders, general.

Mr-Spain posted:

How lax is the traveling rule in the NBA? Sometimes it seems they're taking like 4-5 steps before a layup or whatever.

There's a lot of fuzziness about when, precisely, a dribble ends because, as long as you're considered dribbling, you can tapdance and do whatever you want with your feet. That, combined with the big steps NBA players can take makes people really think travelling happens more than it actually does. The border between the end of a dribble and the beginning of a move is why the 'gather' or the 1.5 step rules exist.

That being said, there's a fairly significant amount of missed calls relating to things like switching pivot feet on face ups because it is very difficult to ref a defender while also looking at peoples' feet.

LionYeti
Oct 11, 2008




Panzeh posted:


That being said, there's a fairly significant amount of missed calls relating to things like switching pivot feet on face ups because it is very difficult to ref a defender while also looking at peoples' feet.

Yeah a ref is generally gonna be looking up to watch if there's illegal contact more than counting steps.

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

Rick posted:

How do you even learn how to do this? Is this just part of playing organized football that you learn what counters what? Even playing NCAA Football a ton I'm still guessing most of the time what defense to run.

There's a whole industry for stuff like that actually. The keyword is "coaching clinics" - organizations and high level coaches giving talks, sometimes whiteboard xs and os and sometimes film based, teaching stuff. Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qswKhA423E (although this is more about play design and fundamentals, not situational play calling). After that, it's experience and after-the-fact analysis.

Oh it's also based on prepping. The higher level you go, the more staff are assigned to scouting. Before a game against an opponent, they'll watch all the other games that opponent has played and chart out what their playcalls were and what the situation when they called that was - down, distance, score, game time, running/not running clock, audibles, player availability - to inform the playcaller about trends in their decision making. "They really like this play on third and long especially near the end of a half", "when they're down a couple scores they start calling way more deep shots". So then before the day the DC and staff are making sure they have a structure that works for plays the other team is known to like, and on the day they tend to call those more.

The other thing is that IRL DCs are really different from each other. The hallmark of the old seattle defense was that they really had one play they'd call and they'd trust their players to make reactive calls in the moment within that structure. Other DCs like scheming up really specific attacks on the d line to take advantage of specific O linemen's tendencies and leave the back end a bit more free. But always there's a shitload of adjustments the players on D are trusted to make depending on what the offense is doing. Here's a random hotlinked image of a defensive playcall:



You'll notice that 2/3rds of the page is given over to specific instructions about how specific defensive players should react to different offensive alignments, different route combinations or run plays. The defensive players have to adapt in the moment since defense is reactive. So a lot of adapting playcalling is about making sure those adjustments exist for that one weird thing the offense does.

Phobeste fucked around with this message at 11:56 on Jul 6, 2022

Rick
Feb 23, 2004
And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take up the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth; and presently such mouths will cease to open.

Interesting. drat that is so much stuff to remember.

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Full Collapse
Dec 4, 2002



Rick posted:

Interesting. drat that is so much stuff to remember.

This is why I blitzed every down in video game football lmao

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