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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I got disabused of the "what's the worst he can do, say no?" delusion after a friend of mine told me about being punched by a straight guy he chatted up. In a gay bar.  Jesus, what was a douchebag like that doing in a gay bar?I think I've been lucky with guys being nice about it, but there's still, uh, this feeling that's hard to describe. This look like "What the hell is wrong with you? You should feel ashamed" that I don't think straight guys get unless they're being complete creeps.
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Jul 31, 2013 00:57
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Jizz Festival posted:
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Jul 31, 2013 01:01
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:According to my friend, he was the kind of rear end in a top hat who trolls gay bars looking for straight women who go to gay bars to get away from guys like him. It can be worse on event nights - the one gay club in Atlanta hosted a trance DJ a few years ago, and some of the people at the VIP tables were very drunk, very loud, and very loudly homophobic. Thank heaven the bouncers had been told not to take their poo poo.  Just of the top of my head: What the gently caress were you expecting, you're in a gay bar you rear end in a top hat! A straight woman in a gay bar probably isn't interested in being hit on anyway, since she's probably going to the gay bar in order to keep from being hit on. Quite a few, if not most or almost all of the women in gay bars would likely be lesbians. Because, you know, it's a gay bar.  My head hurts from trying to understand this guy's retarded logic. fade5 fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 02:24
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fade5 posted:A straight woman in a gay bar probably isn't interested in being hit on anyway, since she's probably going to the gay bar in order to keep from being hit on. You're thinking too hard. He's just hoping to find some girl too drunk to say no or who gets left by a gay friend that hooks up. And there's still a lot of segregation between gay bars and lesbian bars.
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Jul 31, 2013 02:36
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fade5 posted:What the gently caress, I don't even As a straight guy who has gay friends and has been to said bars, it does seem easier to pick up women. Maybe it's b/c they see you're not a total rear end in a top hat and are progressive minded. Of course getting hit on by guys is not only flattering, but free drinks are awesome too! (no I never miss-lead anyone either)
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Jul 31, 2013 03:18
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I can honestly say that I have been rebuffed far more politely by women who I didn't know beforehand were lesbians than most gay guys get by straight guys. I mean, when the difference can be as pronounced as "sorry, sweetie, I'm flattered, but I'm not into men" versus "HOLY poo poo YOU loving human being YOU'VE BEEN TALKING TO ME JUST TO TRY TO GET INTO MY PANTS GET AWAY FROM ME YOU FREAK HEY EVERYBODY THIS GUY IS GAY AND IS TRYING TO gently caress ME"
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Jul 31, 2013 03:30
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paragon1 posted:Being oppressed and just generally shat upon doesn't necessarily make a person kinder and more tolerant of others, sadly. I hate to jump on the pile but you do grasp that the average straight man never once in his life thinks 'oh god what if this girl I think I'm flirting with is gay and if I make a move she gets angry and starts yelling and raving or worse, beats the poo poo out of me and legally has solid ground to stand on because of straight panic defenses' right? Our butterflies are pretty different than yours, yea.
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Jul 31, 2013 07:27
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api call girl posted:I don't want to start white-knighting people like Robertson but I think their idea is transsexuals aren't homosexuals, they're just mis-identified, or whatever, so if, say, you're MTF, now you have a vagina so therefore you're not homosexual when you're doing it with a guy. I guess? That's not unprecedented logic at all. Iran, of all places, has some of the highest rates of trans operations. Basically, there are a coupla hadith saying that Mohammad was cool with crossdressers so long as they weren't prostituting themselves so... okay then. This is what the Iranian nutjobs mean when they say there are no gay people in Iran, because hey, they're all just MTF people who haven't got their operations done yet, right? Man, gender politics is weird.
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Jul 31, 2013 08:40
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This is pretty anecdotal, but in my experience transgendered people are pretty horribly treated by gay male culture. They're a relatively small and often invisible group, and there seems to be a lot of conflation of transvestites/crossdressers with transgendered. "Tranny" or "trannies" I hear thrown around occasionally as pejorative (often self-referential or joking) slang for gay men--particularly, effeminate men. It's not terribly common, but it's definitely used negatively. The attitude that bisexuals don't really exist and are simply gay men/women who are in denial or still haven't come to grips with their homosexuality seems pretty common, too. For whatever bizarre reason, it seems more common for men to claim they're straight (but just like to suck dick and have buttsex on the down-low) than bisexual. Some people are simply insensitive assholes, regardless of sexuality. Many (most??) gay men have some pretty nasty internalized homophobia, too.
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Jul 31, 2013 11:07
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Pellisworth posted:Many (most??) gay men have some pretty nasty internalized homophobia, too. That's a pretty bold and broad statement there. Edit: also offensive Nostalgia4Infinity fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 15:48
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Yeah, I was just going to go with the milder, "You mean guys who are violent homophobes are also chauvinists?!!" in response to Obrabme's post, but I see the bar has been raised.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:20
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:That's a pretty bold and broad statement there.
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Jul 31, 2013 16:26
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:That's a pretty bold and broad statement there. Well, I'm sorry that you're offended, and maybe it is a broad statement (I did indicate my post was based on my anecdotal personal experience). But it's one that is grounded in reality. Frost, D.M., and Meyer, I.H. Internalized Homophobia and Relationship Quality among Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals. J Couns Psychol. 2009 January; 56(1): 97–109. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678796/ quote:Theories of identity development among lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals (LGB) suggest that internalized homophobia is commonly experienced in the process of LGB identity development and overcoming internalized homophobia is essential to the development of a healthy self-concept (Cass, 1979; Fingerhut, Peplau, & Hgavami, 2005; Mayfield, 2001; Rowen & Malcolm, 2002; Troiden, 1979; 1989). Furthermore, internalized homophobia may never be completely overcome, thus it could affect LGB individuals long after coming out (Gonsiorek, 1988). Research has shown that internalized homophobia has a negative impact on LGBs’ global self-concept including mental health and well being There are a lot of physical, mental, and relationship health impacts you can read up on if you want to poke around the article's references. Anyway, in the study they surveyed 396 LGB people in New York City and asked them to respond on a scale of 1-4 (1 being often, 4 being never) to seven questions related to internalized homophobia. For example, "How often have you wished you weren't gay?" The results gave an average of 1.4 (remember, 1 is experiencing internalized homophobia often) and found very strong negative correlations (p<0.01) with outness and connectedness measures. The internalized homophobia index also had strong positive correlations (p<0.01) with measures of depressive symptoms, sex problems, and loneliness. There's actually a lot of research literature on the topic if you want to read up on it. Internalized homophobia is a very real and quite common problem.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:04
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Wishing that you were like everyone else so it was easier to blend in isn't loving homophobia. It's basic human behavior. Everyone has quirks and their own tastes. Everyone thinks at least once in a while "I wish I was just like everyone else" to easier fit in.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:12
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Pellisworth posted:Well, I'm sorry that you're offended This roughly translates to "Calm down, dear" and shouldn't be used unless you actually want to come across as a condescending douchebag.
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Jul 31, 2013 17:33
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quote:Furthermore, internalized homophobia may never be completely overcome, thus it could affect LGB individuals long after coming out (Gonsiorek, 1988) I'm not sure how accurate sociological research about homosexuality from the 1980s is 25 years later, since cultural attitudes about homosexuality have changed pretty significantly, and that is probably a major contribution to internalized homophobia. It's still a thing that gay people have to overcome, but the paper is citing research specifically about teens from a time period when being gay meant something very different socially. It's a real stretch to say that most don't overcome internalized homophobia. Tim Selaty Jr fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 17:45
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Mr. Nice! posted:Wishing that you were like everyone else so it was easier to blend in isn't loving homophobia. It's basic human behavior. Everyone has quirks and their own tastes. Everyone thinks at least once in a while "I wish I was just like everyone else" to easier fit in. That's a pretty broad generalization, there are plenty of people out there who have no desire to be "just like everyone else" even if their lives would be easier if they were. Sometimes I do get frustrated and pissed off about how there is still so much homophobia in society but I have never once turned the frustration onto myself and wished I were any different. I don't think that is particularly normal or healthy nor do I think such attitudes would be common if LGBTs were still a small minority (still "different") but not subjected to prejudice and discrimination. MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:29
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Tim Selaty Jr posted:I'm not sure how accurate sociological research about homosexuality from the 1980s is 25 years later, since cultural attitudes about homosexuality have changed pretty significantly, and that is probably a major contribution to internalized homophobia. It's still a thing that gay people have to overcome, but the paper is citing research specifically about teens from a time period when being gay meant something very different socially. It's a real stretch to say that most don't overcome internalized homophobia. That's just one referenced publication, though. The study I linked and the data I mentioned is from the 2009 publication. Edit: sorry, misunderstood you I think. I think the data from the 2009 study are strongly suggestive that internalized homophobia is common and linked to several mental and physical health problems. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:39
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Pellisworth posted:Many (most??) gay men have some pretty nasty internalized homophobia, too. EDIT: So I don't sound like I'm trying to lay a "gotcha" trap, I'll just go ahead and say that "internalized homophobia" is not a synonym for "I secretly hate gay people while being gay myself". It means "I have accepted negative attitudes about gay people as applicable to myself and have problems accepting myself because of them". As such, it seems like you're misrepresenting the term as if it were synonymous with "repressed", which also seems to be what people are responding to. If you're not, it definitely comes across as a non-sequitur when coupled with "Some people are simply insensitive assholes, regardless of sexuality". Kugyou no Tenshi fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 18:52
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Pellisworth posted:That's just one referenced publication, though. The study I linked and the data I mentioned is from the 2009 publication. Yeah, I referring to the statement that cited a study from 1988.
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Jul 31, 2013 19:20
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I'd just like to clarify something, since I'm not sure if people on either side of this are talking past each other or if there actually is a disagreement with everyone understanding what the other is saying. Are you using "internalized" as a synonym for "bottled-up" or "repressed"? Because that seems to be how people are responding to the term, and how it comes across in this post. Reading the abstract on the cited journal, I believe that they are just referencing the feelings of worry about the reactions of others to it, so it's *caused* by homophobia but is not the actual hatred. Still, the feelings of damaged self-identity are far from abnormal for people growing up gay in conservative areas. If everyone hates you then you start to hate yourself, etc
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Jul 31, 2013 19:35
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:I'd just like to clarify something, since I'm not sure if people on either side of this are talking past each other or if there actually is a disagreement with everyone understanding what the other is saying. Are you using "internalized" as a synonym for "bottled-up" or "repressed"? Because that seems to be how people are responding to the term, and how it comes across in this post. I was originally posting about how I see trans* people treated in the gay male community. When I mentioned internalized homophobia, I was thinking specifically of how many gay men I've met have a very negative attitude towards other gay men with more flamboyant or feminine mannerisms. They've internalized cultural prejudices (consciously or sub-consciously) and look down upon men who don't conform more to traditional gender roles and stereotypes (i.e. are "masculine" or "straight-acting"). I hear "tranny" used similarly to "queen" to describe feminine mannerisms or dress, usually with a negative connotation. I think this in part a manifestation of internalized homophobia. Sorry that I wasn't clearer, early morning posting. Edit: Kugyou no Tenshi posted:So I don't sound like I'm trying to lay a "gotcha" trap, I'll just go ahead and say that "internalized homophobia" is not a synonym for "I secretly hate gay people while being gay myself". It means "I have accepted negative attitudes about gay people as applicable to myself and have problems accepting myself because of them". As such, it seems like you're misrepresenting the term as if it were synonymous with "repressed", which also seems to be what people are responding to. If you're not, it definitely comes across as a non-sequitur when coupled with "Some people are simply insensitive assholes, regardless of sexuality". No, I'm definitely thinking of the latter, thanks for helping articulate that! My comment about internalized homophobia is a separate thought from some people just being jerks. I intended to suggest that internalized homophobia is partly responsible for negative perceptions of trans* people among gay males in particular, but also that being a member of an oppressed minority doesn't mean you can't hold awful prejudices about other minorities, too. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 19:38
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Pellisworth posted:I was originally posting about how I see trans* people treated in the gay male community. When I mentioned internalized homophobia, I was thinking specifically of how many gay men I've met have a very negative attitude towards other gay men with more flamboyant or feminine mannerisms. They've internalized cultural prejudices (consciously or sub-consciously) and look down upon men who don't conform more to traditional gender roles and stereotypes (i.e. are "masculine" or "straight-acting"). I hear "tranny" used similarly to "queen" to describe feminine mannerisms or dress, usually with a negative connotation. That is less homophobia and judging someone for acting a certain way, for both sides. A lot of flamboyant gay men judge "straight gay" men for not being more flamboyant, and vice versa. Just to serve as an example, I'm guilty of this myself. Most people in my personal life push me to act in the stereotypical "gay identity", when I have little interest in a great deal of it. So when I find someone acting incredibly flamboyant, my first thought is not "Someone is expressing themselves!" and instead "Yeah, we get it, you're gay. I'm into dudes too but you don't see me in a rainbow-sequined thong." Does that mean I hate them for being gay? Absolutely not. They just don't act the way I do, so I reflexively judge them (just for a moment). But again, goes both ways. E. For an example of the "both ways", I have been told several times that I am just hiding my "true self" and "acting straight" because I am a coward and afraid of the repercussions. Which is a double bonus of being wrong and *incredibly offensive* E2. And this has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of legal proceeding, sorry thread. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 19:49
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Pellisworth posted:I was originally posting about how I see trans* people treated in the gay male community. When I mentioned internalized homophobia, I was thinking specifically of how many gay men I've met have a very negative attitude towards other gay men with more flamboyant or feminine mannerisms. They've internalized cultural prejudices (consciously or sub-consciously) and look down upon men who don't conform more to traditional gender roles and stereotypes (i.e. are "masculine" or "straight-acting"). I hear "tranny" used similarly to "queen" to describe feminine mannerisms or dress, usually with a negative connotation. My problem is that you seem to be conflating being a homosexual with being a lovely person. The two can exist independently. There seems to be this tendency to lay blame for lovely attitude directly on the individual and by extension the group for biases and attitudes that do not form in a vacuum - our society's hosed up views on what is and isn't masculine deserves the lion's share of the blame. It's a disturbing trend I've noticed forming within the community to treat gay men (and occasionally lesbians) as the enemy and frankly it bothers me. Edit: There's a reason why many gay men (at least this was the case in the early-2000's when I was coming out) initially come out as bisexual. It's safe, it's a way to keep your toe in "normalcy" while overcoming a lot of that internalized homophobia (which I think is better described as self-loathing). I was "bisexual" for several months before I finally admitted that I had literally no interest in women and said yeah I'm full on gay, and yes I got a lot of "yeah sure you are" from acquaintances. For some it's part of the ritual of coming out; that doesn't make it right but it does put things in context. Furthermore I think a lot of the animus towards bisexuals is based in jealousy. I know I went through that when I was younger, it sucks to fall for someone and be rejected because they "only mess around with guys for fun" and "plan on marrying a woman and being normal". Ten years later that still hurts a little. I guess what I'm saying is you're correct, internalized homophobia is a huge problem but one has to look at why that homophobia is internalized in the first place. Experiences make the person. Edit 2: added quote to clarify who I was replying to. Sorry to go off on a tangent in the marriage thread, I feel like this is something that could be made into its own thread but I'm pretty sure it would be a complete shitstorm destined for gassing 
Nostalgia4Infinity fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 20:04
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:My problem is that you seem to be conflating being a homosexual with being a lovely person. The two can exist independently. There seems to be this tendency to lay blame for lovely attitude directly on the individual and by extension the group for biases and attitudes that do not form in a vacuum - our society's hosed up views on what is and isn't masculine deserves the lion's share of the blame. It's a disturbing trend I've noticed forming within the community to treat gay men (and occasionally lesbians) as the enemy and frankly it bothers me. Not lovely, just different. Do whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt anyone it's no one's business. I just mean at first glances people are judged for being different, no matter who you are. Sane people correct their errors in judgement. E. But I do agree, the concept of fixating to "masculinity" is a bizzare idea for anyone that doesn't have their head in the sand. It's one thing to be attracted to someone for those independent traits, but judging and shunning someone for not conforming is just stupid. Being gay is just that, being attracted to a member of your sex. No more, no less CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 20:10
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Not lovely, just different. Do whatever you want, as long as you don't hurt anyone it's no one's business. I just mean at first glances people are judged for being different, no matter who you are. Sane people correct their errors in judgement. But I think Nostalgia4Infinity's point is that it's not a bizarre idea, nor is it appropriate to dismiss these attitudes as "just stupid." People being lovely are the symptom, not the root cause. The problems are internalization of our society's traditional gender roles and an LGBT community that doesn't seem to be taking any collective action to stop it. Edit: and yeah, I didn't intend to turn this into a long derail, apologies. I think it's a big issue within the community but it's only tangentially related to marriage equality.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:29
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 Reminder: several hundred thousand people will gain the right to legal marriage recognition at midnight Er, that is, if you take the population of Minnesota and Rhode Island and figure the likely number of gay people as between 5-10% or something (yes this isn't totally accurate, deal with it). Anyway, Minneapolis city hall will be open at midnight for ceremonies. County judges and Best Mayor* will be officiating weddings. * who is apparently an ordained minister (because he's awesome)
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Jul 31, 2013 20:29
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mdemone posted:Re: Montgomery Co. PA Just because the guy's doing something we approve of doesn't make it okay or not an open-and-shut case of nullification, which you really can't let take root anywhere no matter what.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:35
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Lutha Mahtin posted:
Two more states! It's nice to see states actually following through relatively quickly rather than "yeah you can get married when the bill goes through completely, four years from now.
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Jul 31, 2013 20:39
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DreamShipWrecked posted:"A community" as in a group of people. Not the LGBT group in all, just a crazy section. In the same way the Tea Party is not all Republicans. Still, there is a large segment of the LGB movement that's hostile to the trans movement, and it's historically very deep; see the GLF/GAA, HRC, Stonewall... So your tea party analogy fits more than you know. :p
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Jul 31, 2013 20:41
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Chief Savage Man posted:The Mexican state of Colima, with roughly 650,000, has legalized civil unions. Apparently it's same-gender marriage, instead of civil unions, from what I can tell. http://sdgln.com/news/2013/07/30/mexico-state-colima-legalizes-same-gender-marriage (also, according to this link Colombia has legalized civil unions and their Supreme Court has ordered the legislature to legalize marriage as well) http://justiceinmexico.org/2013/05/08/first-gay-marriage-celebrated-in-oaxaca-following-supreme-courts-december-ruling/ I like this one: quote:For its part, Colima saw its first same-sex marriage in February 2013 after authorities in the municipality of Cuauhtémoc began approving gay marriage applications. State authorities allowed the first of such marriages on the basis of upholding the constitutional principle of “no discrimination.” As explained by CNN México, Colima’s state Constitution explicitly states that “marriage is a civil contract between a man and a woman.” However, officials pointed to the fact that article 1 in the Constitution simultaneously prohibits discrimination against individuals based on their “sexual preferences.” Cuauhtémoc Mayor Indira Vizcaíno Silva said that municipal officials did not want to break both the state and federal constitutions’ anti-discrimination clauses. “We chose not to discriminate, and rather to comply with the obligations we have as municipal authorities not to deny any public service on the basis of sexual orientation,” she said. “We support our decision based on the Supreme Court’s interpretation in other cases, like Oaxaca.” e. Apparently most of Mexico recognizes same-gender marriages, even if it isn't preformed in that state, meaning you can get married in Mexico City or Colima and move and have your marriage recognized in most of the rest of the country. platedlizard fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 31, 2013 |
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Jul 31, 2013 21:02
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Here's a fun clip of the head of the 2009 Maine marriage repeal admitting their campaign uses misleading hyperbole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOkKieEBffE
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Jul 31, 2013 22:07
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Guess how much of the proclaimed "thousands" showed up to that Ex-Gay Pride event near the Supreme Court today? 
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Aug 1, 2013 01:02
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loving hell. In which way does the "ex-gay community" feel it's being oppressed?
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Aug 1, 2013 01:06
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Sweeney Tom posted:Guess how much of the proclaimed "thousands" showed up to that Ex-Gay Pride event near the Supreme Court today? My only question is why? If they were able to become ex-gay they didn't good on them I hope they're happy; why poo poo on other peoples' parade?
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Aug 1, 2013 01:07
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Sweeney Tom posted:Guess how much of the proclaimed "thousands" showed up to that Ex-Gay Pride event near the Supreme Court today? Ahahaha I thought there would be some in the audience but it looks like the only actual ex-gays who are there are in the photo and everyone in the audience is a reporter/camera person. Nostalgia4Infinity posted:My only question is why? If they were able to become ex-gay they didn't good on them I hope they're happy; why poo poo on other peoples' parade? They want all the other gays to become ex-gay because that means their choice to try being straight was correct and not one they'll regret deeply.
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Aug 1, 2013 01:28
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 (from flickr) This is what they do in Minneapolis when gay stuff happens, they light up the bridge all pride-like. Just so you're aware of what's goin' down. They even let boring straight guys like me drive over it when it's all rainbow'd up. Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Aug 1, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 04:15
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I have three friends who are able to get married in Minnesota next month because of something that I helped to bring to fruition. I have never been prouder of anything that I've ever done in my entire life. I am so happy that they're able to be happy together.
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Aug 1, 2013 04:51
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Lutha Mahtin posted:They even let boring straight guys like me drive over it when it's all rainbow'd up. Looks like the Gay Agenda is coming right along as planned.
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Aug 1, 2013 06:20
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Sweeney Tom posted:Guess how much of the proclaimed "thousands" showed up to that Ex-Gay Pride event near the Supreme Court today? The guy at the mic was interviewed for the Daily Show once; it was hilarious. Edit: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-19-2007/diagnosis--mystery-pt--2 The Light Eternal fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Aug 3, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 06:29
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