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On this day in 1854, The Crimean War began with Britain and France declaring war on Russia.
HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 18:28
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Discendo Vox posted:But would that be enough to elicit a NATO response? How many battalions could your other parts muster? Are your nukes an effective deterrent?
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Mar 28, 2014 18:32
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Mr. Nice! posted:The COLE situation isn't even remotely similar. The SAMUEL B ROBERTS case during the Iran/Iraq war, otoh, is completely applicable. not always
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Mar 28, 2014 18:41
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But you see, Israel totally didn't mean it. In news that apply to eastern Europe, Germany today signed 18+ new deals with China, including a provision to trade the Yuan in Frankfurt. This after Merkel officially announced that they're now looking for ways to substitute as much of Russian gas and oil as possible to avoid being held hostage in the future. Putin has done a great deal of damage to the Russian economy by proxy with his Crimean adventure, even if it will only be felt over time as German and other Euro business starts avoiding Russia and putting even more focus on Sino-European trade. az fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 18:42
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shiiiiiit gotta buy me some Yuan nownownow edit; how do i buy yuan?
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Mar 28, 2014 18:54
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Oh Israel 
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Mar 28, 2014 18:59
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Boner Slam posted:shiiiiiit gotta buy me some Yuan nownownow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IEV7n9co74
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Mar 28, 2014 18:59
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OddObserver posted:That's not what the story says, though? Someone proposed a bill to fire him, but that doesn't say it passed. Meant to say 'as good as fired'. Can't find any more recent news for some reason. Right Sector promised to come back if Avakov's not fired, so that's strange.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:06
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From the 2075 History SAT ISIS is to Bashar Assad as Right Sector is to A) John McCain B) Vladimir Putin C) Bill Clinton D) Boris Yeltsin
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Mar 28, 2014 19:12
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Boner Slam posted:shiiiiiit gotta buy me some Yuan nownownow This post is basically a flashing billboard that says "SELL YUAN"
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Mar 28, 2014 19:15
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McDowell posted:From the 2075 History SAT Yeltsin no matter what is the case.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:19
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az posted:But you see, Israel totally didn't mean it. Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him?
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Mar 28, 2014 19:22
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? Its part of the reason I love people who scream about China planning to take over the US Dollar... Why? Why would they shoot the goose that lays the golden eggs? This whole Crimea thing is going to do WONDERS for the Chinese, and there really isn't anything Russian can do about it. It just keeps looking like Putin has shot himself in the foot economically over this whole thing.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:24
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McDowell posted:From the 2075 History SAT  Interesting document appeared on Facebook concerning the list of people wanted by Ukraine including Yanukovych on down. It seems that none of the CIS states have any of these people on their official lists.  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201940022048219&set=a.1078519169258.2012987.1414642146&type=1&theater
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Mar 28, 2014 19:26
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? China gulps up deals from pretty much everybody willing these days. China is not a vocal supporter but they won't throw Russia under the bus as long as they have a dispute with Taiwan and Japanese neocons to worry about. Edit: Besides they signed multiple energy deals with Russia a while ago. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 19:27
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? China won't "back" anyone. They're smart enough to just sit back and enjoy the show. Putin's visiting China in May btw. Yeah, this is a good time to invest in China.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:30
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? I don't know what goes through his mind but I assume they sincerely hoped that China would side with them against "the west". Or that they didn't care either way which is foolish. China has been confrontational with Russia for years now and there's no end in sight, see China proactively taking over as much of the 'stans oil and pipelines as they can, massively cutting into Gazproms profits.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:30
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Baloogan posted:What about the 25% of your population that is Russian? The same guys who might be pissed you tore down their war memorial. There are quite a few differences. The country is in the EU and its economy is not a mess like in Ukraine, that's a big thing already. The country's been able to avoid political division on ethnic lines - two well-established parties attract most Russian support and neither of them is a minority rights party. There's some bad blood - sure. So take Narva for example - it was depopulated and demolished by the war and USSR action in the 1940s, and ended up being populated with Russians. However, I once went there and saw something quite interesting. I went to the old city hall that was one of like two buildings that survived. And in one of the rooms was something very nice and heart-warming - it was a nigh perfect model of the old baroque city before it was destroyed in the 1940s. A tiny version of every building had been put together and arranged as accurately as possible, based on old pictures and archive material. And it was put together by a local Russian. Dusz fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 28, 2014 |
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Mar 28, 2014 19:30
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Narva has been "rewritten" demographically many times, most of them by Russia. It used to have a pretty large Baltic-German and Swedish population untill Peter the Great basically killed them all.
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Mar 28, 2014 19:50
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? I think he legitimately hoped that China would hate the west more than him, which is an insane thing to hope because holy poo poo they hate Russia so much.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:04
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In completely unsurprising news, the Russian cash is pouring into Crimea already. Also, it's gonna turn into a gambling resort:quote:Russian officials are weighing a proposal to create a gambling zone with casinos and hotels in Crimea, the Black Sea peninsula annexed from Ukraine, according to four people with direct knowledge of the planning. Basically, exactly as predicted, Putin's going to throw money at Crimea until it's a nice shiny jewel in the Imperial crown. That's expensive, but turning it into Vegas will balance the budget (won't balance the budget, but will push a lot of money into the hands of some oligarchs who will in turn kick back a percentage and at least balance Putin's budget.) I would also not be surprised if the casinos that open up went for the heavyweight troll championship and advertised on Ukrainian TV, what with them being close to the border and all.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:15
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A Russian journalist posted to his twitter what he says are official talking points for Russian media on Crimea and Ukraine, for use by TV news programs:https://mobile.twitter.com/barabanch/status/449526916782239744?screen_name=barabanch Amongst points on Ukraine: atmosphere of lawness, growing chaos, Nazis in key government posts. They are also asked to encourage people to vacation in Crimea
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Mar 28, 2014 20:15
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OddObserver posted:A Russian journalist posted to his twitter what he says are official talking points for Russian media on Crimea and Ukraine, for use by TV news programs:https://mobile.twitter.com/barabanch/status/449526916782239744?screen_name=barabanch Just saw this too. Topic — Crimea Main points 1. It should be clarified that 23 years within an independent Ukraine largely degraded Crimea, and the authorities in Kiev are to blame. The goal of Russian authorities now is ensuring the emergence of a new life on the peninsula, bringing Crimea up to Russia’s national standards of quality of life. Cleaning the Augean stables left by Ukrainian authorities cannot be accomplished overnight, but the work is underway, and Crimeans will be seeing it every day. By order of Vladimir Putin, a number of key ministers will visit Crimea and Sevastopol. Next week, several other members of the cabinet are expected to make the trip, as well. 2. Please make an active effort in your work to promote the summer vacation season in Crimea: it’s nearby, safe, among our own people [“у своих”]. Topic — Ukraine The bottom line for informational work: - there is an atmosphere of lawlessness and growing chaos: nazis occupy key government posts, the Interior Ministry is paralyzed by fear (all the tough talk after the death of [Right Sector general] Aleksandr Muzychko has remained only words), crime is rampant, stupefied by its own impunity, and rising under the guise of “Maidan” activism; - the economy is spinning out of control: money that was drying up before [Maidan] is still absent; a rise in taxes in the very near future has been announced, along with cuts to welfare benefits and a government budget sequester; - in this context, bickering over power looks especially cynical. Couple of translations of talking points.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:27
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Adventure Pigeon posted:Did Putin actually think there was any chance in hell that China would back him? az posted:I don't know what goes through his mind but I assume they sincerely hoped that China would side with them against "the west". Or that they didn't care either way which is foolish. China has been confrontational with Russia for years now and there's no end in sight, see China proactively taking over as much of the 'stans oil and pipelines as they can, massively cutting into Gazproms profits. You guys will understand Russia, Putin *and* China a lot better as soon as you realize that not only do Putin/Russians genuinely not give a gently caress either way, the point was never to impress the Chinese because both sides already play the same game. Russia wants its empire back, but what your average European Russian thinks of the east is "frozen wasteland my uncle never returned from" and what they think of the south is "browns live there". China wants to expand economically, so there's always going to be some friction there, but at the end of the day Putin and the 70% of Russians who will legitimately vote for him want to be a European Great Power again just like the Chinese really want Greater China. Because they understand each other very well, both sides will sign trade deals with each other forever and the worst spats on either end will be over Kazakhstan -only- because the north part is Russian. If this were the 1940's they'd already have signed the Putin/Xi pact and divided Kazakhstan between them.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:38
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Adar posted:You guys will understand Russia, Putin *and* China a lot better as soon as you realize that not only do Putin/Russians genuinely not give a gently caress either way, the point was never to impress the Chinese because both sides already play the same game. Russia wants its empire back, but what your average European Russian thinks of the east is "frozen wasteland my uncle never returned from" and what they think of the south is "browns live there". China wants to expand economically, so there's always going to be some friction there, but at the end of the day Putin and the 70% of Russians who will legitimately vote for him want to be a European Great Power again just like the Chinese really want Greater China. Because they understand each other very well, both sides will sign trade deals with each other forever and the worst spats on either end will be over Kazakhstan -only- because the north part is Russian. If this were the 1940's they'd already have signed the Putin/Xi pact and divided Kazakhstan between them. I don't think what you're saying is wrong but it's overgeneralized.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:40
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Adar posted:You guys will understand Russia, Putin *and* China a lot better as soon as you realize that not only do Putin/Russians genuinely not give a gently caress either way, the point was never to impress the Chinese because both sides already play the same game. Russia wants its empire back, but what your average European Russian thinks of the east is "frozen wasteland my uncle never returned from" and what they think of the south is "browns live there". China wants to expand economically, so there's always going to be some friction there, but at the end of the day Putin and the 70% of Russians who will legitimately vote for him want to be a European Great Power again just like the Chinese really want Greater China. Because they understand each other very well, both sides will sign trade deals with each other forever and the worst spats on either end will be over Kazakhstan -only- because the north part is Russian. If this were the 1940's they'd already have signed the Putin/Xi pact and divided Kazakhstan between them. I'm not sure why you quoted me because that has nothing to do with it. On the international diplomacy stage Russia looked to want China's support and did not receive it, because China doesn't need to and is more interested with other global players, that's what I said and that was the original question, framed in international diplomacy and recognition.
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Mar 28, 2014 20:54
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I keep seeing different numbers for how many numbers Russia has near Ukraine- 20, 30, 50 and now 100,000 troops. I get they're having a hard time gauging it, but is the hundred thousand number even remotely close or just USA Today sensationalism?
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Mar 28, 2014 21:24
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az posted:I'm not sure why you quoted me because that has nothing to do with it. On the international diplomacy stage Russia looked to want China's support and did not receive it, because China doesn't need to and is more interested with other global players, that's what I said and that was the original question, framed in international diplomacy and recognition. Im not sure where you got the understanding that Russia thought China would support them. That is not the way China operates and they did in my mind and i'm sure everyone elses exactly what is expected which is nothing.
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Mar 28, 2014 21:32
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Adar posted:You guys will understand Russia, Putin *and* China a lot better as soon as you realize that not only do Putin/Russians genuinely not give a gently caress either way, the point was never to impress the Chinese because both sides already play the same game. Russia wants its empire back, but what your average European Russian thinks of the east is "frozen wasteland my uncle never returned from" and what they think of the south is "browns live there". China wants to expand economically, so there's always going to be some friction there, but at the end of the day Putin and the 70% of Russians who will legitimately vote for him want to be a European Great Power again just like the Chinese really want Greater China. Because they understand each other very well, both sides will sign trade deals with each other forever and the worst spats on either end will be over Kazakhstan -only- because the north part is Russian. If this were the 1940's they'd already have signed the Putin/Xi pact and divided Kazakhstan between them. What. Chinese nationalism is fixed on the issue of Taiwan and the Senkaku's and other random islands. There's virtually nothing there in regards to Mongolia or the Russo-Sino border or central asia as most of the border disputes were resolved between 2000 and 2008. The Chinese didn't back Russia because Russian adventurism directly contradicts all Chinese foreign policy directives and trends for the last 30 years and puts possible further economic cooperation and expansion with the US in jeopardy which they want to insure double digit job growth in China. The Chinese aren't looking at the international scene with Mao's confrontationalism, they want to be a part of the international order (and legitly lead it), this means playing a very different Great Game. The Chinese want economic growth and that means not getting into skirmishes which forces reallocation of state resources into the military, and why fight for something when you can buy it?
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Mar 28, 2014 21:38
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ultrabay2000 posted:I keep seeing different numbers for how many numbers Russia has near Ukraine- 20, 30, 50 and now 100,000 troops. I get they're having a hard time gauging it, but is the hundred thousand number even remotely close or just USA Today sensationalism? Troop buildup? What troop buildup? RT is incredible. http://rt.com/news/russia-ukraine-troops-obama-945/
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Mar 28, 2014 21:49
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oh right I forgot how biased the pro-western nazi controlled state media propaganda centers were.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:01
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Adar posted:In completely unsurprising news, the Russian cash is pouring into Crimea already. Also, it's gonna turn into a gambling resort: That's absolutely perfect. Crimea: the South Jersey of Russia.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:06
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Agronox posted:That's absolutely perfect. Crimea: the South Jersey of Russia. Crimea Shore?
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Mar 28, 2014 22:08
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Churkin is speaking at a UN press conference right now and from what he is saying it sound like the next step for Russia is to sow doubt about the legitimacy of the presidential elections next month. He was saying that there will be entire areas of Ukraine that will not be participating in the election and brought up that the turnout could be very low.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:27
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Russia was one of the first places Xi Jinping visited once he became Premier. I don't see how China abstaining from the SC and GA votes means they oppose Russia, they are trying to stay neutral.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:29
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Tainen posted:Churkin is speaking at a UN press conference right now and from what he is saying it sound like the next step for Russia is to sow doubt about the legitimacy of the presidential elections next month. He was saying that there will be entire areas of Ukraine that will not be participating in the election and brought up that the turnout could be very low. Well, it's true that the Russian-occupied Crimea will likely not be able to vote.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:29
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OddObserver posted:Well, it's true that the Russian-occupied Crimea will likely not be able to vote. I'm having a hard time finding the link right now but I swear I read that Yatsenyuk said earlier this week that Crimea would be allowed to vote.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:31
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I feel like it's probably a mistake for folks to discuss China as if its government were a unitary entity with consistent motivations, allegiances, self-identity and public memory.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:33
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ultrabay2000 posted:I keep seeing different numbers for how many numbers Russia has near Ukraine- 20, 30, 50 and now 100,000 troops. I get they're having a hard time gauging it, but is the hundred thousand number even remotely close or just USA Today sensationalism? If you're not Putin, a Russian general, or a CIA/NSA satellite analyst... 
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Mar 28, 2014 22:37
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With regards to the foreign military exercises coming up in Ukraine, is there any feasible way to retake Crimea? Could Ukraine offer its bases in Crimea to house foreign forces while they participate in the exercises? Each nation, with Ukraine, can have its own assigned base to just drive up to, knock on the door, and kindly ask the Russians to leave. Preferably after Russia sinks some money into Crimea's infrastructure. If Ukraine can muster a large enough "army" as a vanguard, with US/UK/Polish/etc special forces using them as human shields, couldn't they just pull the same stunt over again? Would Putin have the balls to shoot first?
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Mar 28, 2014 22:51
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