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Mister Fister posted:Nothing, until he serves out a deserved punishment. I personally don't think Vick should have gotten a second chance because the crime was so grotesque, even after the stuff he did to 'rehabilitate' his image. What i'm saying is, there is a ton of hypocrisy in people being ok with Vick being let back in. I disagree, Vick served a deserved punishment and whether or not his post-prison outreach efforts were truly sincere, it makes a positive impact because of his visibility and image. Mister Fister posted:No, TFF sometimes has different opinions then the general consensus but there's a bit of an echo chamber within TFF at times even when it disagrees. The thing is, there are domestic violence cases without video that nobody seems to care nearly as much about, and that bothers me as well. Because it's not just about the Ray hitting his Janay, it's also about the way the league seemingly covered it up to protect its image. Not to mention, the world is too big for people to meet these issues equally. A high profile incident like this is naturally going to have a bigger reaction. And again, that's hardly just TFF-echo-chamber-whatever.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:25
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Mahoning posted:Because he lied about it and tried to shift the blame to his wife which shows that he is an even larger rear end in a top hat than any of us imagined? They didn't even bother to get the video in their very thorough and robust investigation. I'm not saying Rice isn't an rear end in a top hat and shouldn't get punished but they don't have any sense of consistently punishing people.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:30
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I wonder how much money come corrupt state cop got for stealing and selling that elevator video. $150-200K or so?
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Sep 9, 2014 16:33
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ZenVulgarity posted:They didn't even bother to get the video in their very thorough and robust investigation. They got the video. They're lying. Sources confirmed to Peter King that they'd seen it a month or so ago, but now they're saying it never surfaced. Yet TMZ was able to get a hold of it and the NFL is able to dig up every bit of dirt on every draft pick, but they couldn't get this tape? Bullshit. (this is not a "mad at zenvulgarity" post, it is a mad at NFL post)
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Sep 9, 2014 16:33
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Mahoning posted:That's pretty sad, and I feel for her. But I also don't think she understands that its about more than just them and what sort of terrible message the initial reaction sent to would-be wife beaters. I do, too. What she ultimately needs is a good support network of people she can turn to. My mother was in an abusive relationship before I was born, and even had a kid with the guy. He was a piece of poo poo and beat the ever-loving crap out of her on a regular basis, but she kept staying with him for whatever reason. One day he pulled a gun on her, then went to the bar, and she was gone with my brother by the time he came back. Thankfully, she wised up before it was too late and she had people she could turn to. I only pray Janay Rice has the same thing. However, nothing is going to change until her mentality changes. She probably honestly believes it's her fault that Ray punched her and that she "deserved" it or whatever. A lot of battered women think that way. That thought process has to change if she's going to save herself. BigBallChunkyTime fucked around with this message at 16:38 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 16:34
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DangerKat posted:I disagree, Vick served a deserved punishment and whether or not his post-prison outreach efforts were truly sincere, it makes a positive impact because of his visibility and image. I mean, it kinda feels like people here are saying it doesn't matter what crime you committed, as long as you serve out your sentence and somehow get lucky and get a respected mentor to game public perception of you can get back into the NFL. Also, it really feels like people are equivocating Rice and Vick's crimes and if Rice would only follow Vick's example, all would be forgiven. Like that other poster said, Rice had a single violent outburst (that we know of), and Vick ran a loving dog torture/murder operation for years.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:34
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armoredgorilla posted:They got the video. They're lying. Sources confirmed to Peter King that they'd seen it a month or so ago, but now they're saying it never surfaced. Yet TMZ was able to get a hold of it and the NFL is able to dig up every bit of dirt on every draft pick, but they couldn't get this tape? The not having the video post was  .
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Sep 9, 2014 16:38
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ZenVulgarity posted:The not having the video post was Gotcha.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:39
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Pryor on Fire posted:I wonder how much money come corrupt state cop got for stealing and selling that elevator video. $150-200K or so? It was most likely a hotel employee that leaked it and TMZ pays out like 50K for something like this.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:40
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Mister Fister posted:I mean, it kinda feels like people here are saying it doesn't matter what crime you committed, as long as you serve out your sentence and somehow get lucky and get a respected mentor to game public perception of you can get back into the NFL. Also, it really feels like people are equivocating Rice and Vick's crimes and if Rice would only follow Vick's example, all would be forgiven. Like that other poster said, Rice had a single violent outburst (that we know of), and Vick ran a loving dog torture/murder operation for years. And then he was in prison for two years. Felons shouldn't be treated like Scarlet Letters, it's a component to why recidivism is so high.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:41
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ZenVulgarity posted:They didn't even bother to get the video in their very thorough and robust investigation. Ok so if Ray initially lied, then during the course of the investigation the NFL watched the video and discovered the lie and suspended him indefinitely, not for 2 or 6 games, would you care?
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Sep 9, 2014 16:41
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Vick could have been feeding puppies into a blender everyday and it would still be less callous and grotesque than beating your wife
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Sep 9, 2014 16:41
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Raku posted:Vick could have been feeding puppies into a blender everyday and it would still be less callous and grotesque than beating your wife I disagree. I think systematically killing domesticated animals is at least equal to punching someone. Both are terrible, of course.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:43
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Mahoning posted:Ok so if Ray initially lied, then during the course of the investigation the NFL watched the video and discovered the lie and suspended him indefinitely, not for 2 or 6 games, would you care? Kind of? I mean, it would fall in line with what they have as a punishment system (indefinitely could still mean that), but it's more of a part of a system as a whole that inconsistently and arbitrarily deals with the players.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:44
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Mister Fister posted:I mean, it kinda feels like people here are saying it doesn't matter what crime you committed, as long as you serve out your sentence and somehow get lucky and get a respected mentor to game public perception of you can get back into the NFL. Also, it really feels like people are equivocating Rice and Vick's crimes and if Rice would only follow Vick's example, all would be forgiven. Like that other poster said, Rice had a single violent outburst (that we know of), and Vick ran a loving dog torture/murder operation for years. Vick only ever came up because you brought him into the discussion 
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Sep 9, 2014 16:46
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three posted:I disagree. I think systematically killing domesticated animals is at least equal to punching someone. Both are terrible, of course. It's a matter of opinion. Some people (like myself) consider human life and human dignity to be above all else. Torturing anything is reprehensible but I can't quite get over the killing a dog is worse than killing a cow or pig thing. It's all pretty awful. *takes bite of bacon cheeseburger*
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Sep 9, 2014 16:47
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Comparing these two crimes seems pointless to me. They're totally different, the criminal process is different, the two players are pretty different It might be worthwhile to compare Rice to other players accused or convicted of domestic violence, in which case I think a lifetime/one-year ban is the harshest punishment I've seen. That doesn't make it unfair, though. more like the other punishments were probably too light
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Sep 9, 2014 16:48
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three posted:I disagree. I think systematically killing domesticated animals is at least equal to punching someone. Both are terrible, of course. As like a huge softie for dogs and animals in general (check out my posting history in PI :B)I understand why he says that: there are a lot of people who see dogs and domesticated animals as utilitarian objects, not things necessarily deserving hugs and cuddles and wonderful treatment. So its less shocking to people to hear about the large scale poor treatment of animals (until you start getting into the nitty gritty details). However, I would hope, that most people would look at a woman and go "yes, this is a human being who deserves to be treated with respect and dignity".
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Sep 9, 2014 16:48
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There's a pretty vast difference between raising livestock for food and killing it humanely and raising dogs for fighting and letting them tear each other apart, not to mention the torture and electrocution and such
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Sep 9, 2014 16:48
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ZenVulgarity posted:And then he was in prison for two years. Felons shouldn't be treated like Scarlet Letters, it's a component to why recidivism is so high. I don't think people should be guaranteed jobs after commiting horrendous crimes. But that's the other thing that pisses me off, being in the NFL isn't like a normal job, you're a public figure and make a shitload of money. Joe sixpack committing the same horrendous crime wouldn't be employable anywhere (and i wouldn't blame the employers one bit). Raku posted:Vick could have been feeding puppies into a blender everyday and it would still be less callous and grotesque than beating your wife  DangerKat posted:Vick only ever came up because you brought him into the discussion Because i feel like we need some consistency with how we view and deal with these types of incidence.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:50
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Yeah, but you can sort of teach yourself to be callous to animals--look at bullfighting, for example. Animal torture is a huge part of world cultures, and Vick was definitely brought up to be part of that. Now, violence that could potentially kill your goddamned spouse? Your wife? Your fiance? That's terrifying, because this is the person you supposedly treasure more than anything else in the world, you're not doing it to get money, you're just... gently caress Ray Rice.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:51
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Dogs don't deserve hugs and cuddles and wonderful treatment unless they're good girls, oh yes they are, who's a good girl. Who's a good puppy
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Sep 9, 2014 16:52
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The Football Funhouse > Dentology versus Consequentialism versus Vick versus gently caress Ray Rice
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Sep 9, 2014 16:54
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Raku posted:Yeah, but you can sort of teach yourself to be callous to animals--look at bullfighting, for example. Animal torture is a huge part of world cultures, and Vick was definitely brought up to be part of that. There are many cultures where women are not considered equal, as well. You don't have to look hard for them.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:56
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I think the guy is total piece of do do, but that doesn't really keep you from playing in the NFL now does it. I think required consulting and monitoring and an additional 6 game ban matches the crime better, but oh media uproar has caused special punishment because the NFL screwed the poach the first time. Special punishment for media relation reasons does not sit well with me. If the rule is you punch your girl friend in the head you are banned for life then make that the rule. As I see it the rule is 6 games. I don't see how this is worse then most domestic violence. She didn't have to go to the hospital. The fact of the matter is as the cop and prosecutor concluded this was mild abuse. I know TFF always calls for blood at any deviation from what you expect, and you can feel free to label me as part of the problem if you want but life time ban is reactionary bullplop. I hate the Ravens and Ray Rice and am glad Irsay moved the team, but even I can see bullplop when it is so obvious.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:58
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Elephanthead posted:I think the guy is total piece of do do, but that doesn't really keep you from playing in the NFL now does it. I think required consulting and monitoring and an additional 6 game ban matches the crime better, but oh media uproar has caused special punishment because the NFL screwed the poach the first time. Special punishment for media relation reasons does not sit well with me. If the rule is you punch your girl friend in the head you are banned for life then make that the rule. As I see it the rule is 6 games. I don't see how this is worse then most domestic violence. She didn't have to go to the hospital. The fact of the matter is as the cop and prosecutor concluded this was mild abuse. I know TFF always calls for blood at any deviation from what you expect, and you can feel free to label me as part of the problem if you want but life time ban is reactionary bullplop. I hate the Ravens and Ray Rice and am glad Irsay moved the team, but even I can see bullplop when it is so obvious. So you think it's ok that he victim blamed his wife and that shouldn't affect his punishment at all?
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Sep 9, 2014 17:01
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http://deadspin.com/new-jersey-state-police-say-nfl-statement-is-inaccurate-1632438139 lol
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Sep 9, 2014 17:05
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three posted:There are many cultures where women are not considered equal, as well. You don't have to look hard for them. For example, this one, where it's still common for people to say "she probably had it coming" reflexively
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Sep 9, 2014 17:06
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three posted:There are many cultures where women are not considered equal, as well. You don't have to look hard for them. Yeah, but like here in  AMERICA we'd all like to pretend that's not the case. As for the way the dogs were treated (obviously terribly) look at hom many people are arrested for animal cruelty (very few) and are successfully prosecuted (even fewer) and the fact that there are still plenty of places in our country where shooting, poisoning or drowning dogs is AOKAY because "them thar dergs wandered on to mah land".In my mind this isn't really "who do we tell to gently caress off harder, Vick or Rice" because for real, gently caress them both. FeedingHam2Cats posted:For example, this one, where it's still common for people to say "she probably had it coming" reflexively Yeah, sort of my point, unfortunately.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:08
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FeedingHam2Cats posted:For example, this one, where it's still common for people to say "she probably had it coming" reflexively The worst is when I see women say this poo poo. It's like they already have battered wives syndrome before a fist ever touches their face.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:09
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Oh hey someone else decided to be all "why won't you leave poor Ray alone YOU'RE HURTING HIS EARNINGS" wait, it was Janay Rice quote:To take something away from the man I love that he was worked his rear end off for all his life just to gain ratings is a horrific. THIS IS OUR LIFE! 
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Sep 9, 2014 17:09
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ZenVulgarity posted:So why is Ray banned indefinitely if the new policy is six games Policy is minimum 6 games with the opportunity to earn bonus prizes
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Sep 9, 2014 17:12
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The irony is, as a high-profile victim of domestic abuse, Janay Rice could probably make a lot of money speaking to women's groups around the country. But that would involve her first learning more about her situation's role in our society and some more perspective that she doesn't yet have.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:14
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That was weird, I was clicking on page 36 and suddenly my vision blurred and now here I am at the end of page 38, I hope I didn't miss anything
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Sep 9, 2014 17:15
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ZenVulgarity posted:So why is Ray banned indefinitely if the new policy is six games Just one of the many stupid rear end things going on about this. Rice is a dickhole, but Goodell is managing to turn this whole thing into a loving kangaroo court. The NFLPA will probably never due it due to the bad PR, but they really should back him on appeal just on principle so that the league gets some kind of consistency in suspensions.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:16
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Mahoning posted:The irony is, as a high-profile victim of domestic abuse, Janay Rice could probably make a lot of money speaking to women's groups around the country. But that would involve her first learning more about her situation's role in our society and some more perspective that she doesn't yet have.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:16
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CapnAndy posted:Oh hey someone else decided to be all "why won't you leave poor Ray alone YOU'RE HURTING HIS EARNINGS" Unless you're saying she should flat out leave him then I don't get how it's an indictment on her for her to want her husband to be able to earn as much money as possible e: This isn't a gold digger type comment I'm making, any family would be put under a huge amount of stress if their income disappeared Intruder fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 17:17
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yes, please blame the victim. Uhhhhhhh.......what?
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Sep 9, 2014 17:22
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Mahoning posted:Uhhhhhhh.......what? You accused her of being ignorant for not wanting more public attention and scrutiny lumped on her because of how this happened. The way this played out undeniably sucks for her and saying she should gain "some perspective" doesn't help anybody. Edit: Also Joe Biden for NFL Commish please. He can still be VP. He can totally do both. hcreight fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 17:25
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Saying that she can make an impact (and a living) by empowering women down the road when she learns more about the situation and gains perspective that is not possible this close to her ordeal is not victim blaming.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:30
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