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bobjr posted:Why even have the "You are my daughter" scene if this was going to happen? At first I thought they finally could write Stannis not terribly, now it seems like they did it for shocking tv. That's exactly what they did it for
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Jun 7, 2015 19:26
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Abner Assington posted:Welp, gently caress that. Go White Walkers. Well there's still hope for 'book' Stannis, but as far as the show is concerned...yeah, go Team White Walkers.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:27
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bobjr posted:Why even have the "You are my daughter" scene if this was going to happen? At first I thought they finally could write Stannis not terribly, now it seems like they did it for shocking tv. If he doesn't love Shireen, it's not a sacrifice. He was willing to burn his nephew, Gendry, despite reservations, if he thought it would work. Showing he loves Shireen but giving him no way forward without sacrificing her is critical.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:27
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Here lies Stannis, the fewer of two evils
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Jun 7, 2015 19:28
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This has been built up since S2, so no surprise he goes through with it. Still, Stannis is loving ice cold, drat. 
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Jun 7, 2015 19:29
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If nothing else, I assume this means that Brienne won't kill Stannis. It would be a weird-rear end arc for Stannis to make such a character-defining turn only get stabbed like one episode later.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:29
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BillBear posted:This has been built up since S2, so no surprise he goes through with it. He's as cold as ice. He's willing to sacrifice Shireen.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:29
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Abner Assington posted:Welp, gently caress that. Go White Walkers. And some people gave me a hard time for suggesting The Others were the real good guys. gently caress everyone except The Others. 
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Jun 7, 2015 19:30
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In It For The Tank posted:If nothing else, I assume this means that Brienne won't kill Stannis. It would be a weird-rear end arc for Stannis to make such a character-defining turn only get stabbed like one episode later. Yeah but now everyone wants him dead
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Jun 7, 2015 19:30
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Why not like, burn yourself mr. 'i'll sacrifice everything for the realm'.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:30
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I haven't minded this season nearly as much as others (Dorne excepted) but holy poo poo Stannis burning his daughter, because Ramsey has comic book superpowers and he and 20 men can destroy all of an army's food, is terrible for so many reasons. Was there even a point of changing the plotline from the book where Shireen will likely die behind Stannis's back? I can't believe the showrunners would actually think the "shock" value of it would override having any sort of internal consistency of character. At a minimum, it needs to be set up better. Also excited to see Tyrion apparently kill as many Harpy soldiers as Selmy. BillBear posted:This has been built up since S2, so no surprise he goes through with it. Not really, no it hasn't. And no, killing your brother's bastard child is not the same as killing your daughter and only child. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:31
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In It For The Tank posted:If nothing else, I assume this means that Brienne won't kill Stannis. It would be a weird-rear end arc for Stannis to make such a character-defining turn only get stabbed like one episode later. Actually it would be very fitting that he made this ultimate sacrifice to win the throne, only to get killed the next episode and realize that he burned multiple people for absolutely no reason and is an awful person.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:31
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In It For The Tank posted:I'm not sure what you mean by "the injustice is shallow if the worst price he paid we not willingly". If I'm understanding you correctly, if Stannis does bad things then when bad things happen to him it's more appropriate? If so, I disagree. As I said above, the injustice is greater if it's inflicted on someone who is essentially blameless for it. Stannis has set himself up as humanity's savior and now humanity has betrayed him and taken everything from him The story you're describing is one in which a man has a bunch of things happen to him. The show's story is about a man who chooses to do a bunch of things. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, they're just very different. Stannis in the show is a different character than Stannis in the book. Like you said, he has been consistently presented as more villainous. And now, he appears to remain consistently more villainous, on his way to being a full-blown villain. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:31
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The story in the show is about a man who'd do anything a smoking redhead tells him to and can't even count to three leeches.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Why not like, burn yourself mr. 'i'll sacrifice everything for the realm'. Can't be Azor Ahai if he burns himself. Can't save the realm. He could save his army and Shireen though, they could flee back to Castle Black. But in the long run, the Long Night would get them. So Stannis - if he believes, and he's come too far not to believe - has to burn Shireen. I'd be interested to see if in the show they argue about the burning and he makes that very same point. So It Goes posted:I haven't minded this season nearly as much as others (Dorne excepted) but holy poo poo Stannis burning his daughter, because Ramsey has comic book superpowers and he and 20 men can destroy all of an army's food, is terrible for so many reasons. Was there even a point of changing the plotline from the book where Shireen will likely die behind Stannis's back? I can't believe the showrunners would actually think the "shock" value of it would override having any sort of internal consistency of character. At a minimum, it needs to be set up better. We're having this discussion right now if you want to dip in. The short version is Stannis willingly choosing to perform the sacrifice necessary to be Azor Ahai in the name of saving the realm only to have his destiny usurped by Jon is stronger than it all happening behind his back while he fights a standard, political military campaign against the Boltons. I do wonder how Melisandre will get to the Wall to revive Jon now, though. I thought for sure she would be exiled to the Wall.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:34
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Ollie is going to revive Jon Snow
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Jun 7, 2015 19:36
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I'm tired of Ramsay being some invincible comic book villain. They could at least have a few scenes where Roose tells him this poo poo is turning people against him instead of him casually going to castles and flaying everyone without response.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:36
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:Ollie is going to revive Jon Snow Ollie is actually Azor Ahai so this is inaccurate
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Jun 7, 2015 19:37
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Whatever reasoning they give is still going to be ludicrous, Stannis hasn't ever actually risked anything for Mel's red god bullshit. First two times he let her be rowed underneath a castle, no risk to himself, second time he let her burn 3 leeches (one of which will never be brought up apparently) and now he's burning his loved daughter for.....? The scene has Selyse saying they'll starve to death. Burning Shireen is going to....cause a mass migration of deer through their camp?
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Jun 7, 2015 19:38
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"We had an assistant named Dave Hill," said Benioff and Weiss. "One day last summer he walked into our office and said, 'You know how Stannis really loves his daughter?' 'Yeah?' 'Well,' said Dave, doesn't it make sense that he'd burn her alive? What else is he going to do?' 'You're right,' we said. 'That does make sense.' 'This year, Dave Hill is a writer on the show."
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Jun 7, 2015 19:38
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So It Goes posted:I haven't minded this season nearly as much as others (Dorne excepted) but holy poo poo Stannis burning his daughter, because Ramsey has comic book superpowers and he and 20 men can destroy all of an army's food, is terrible for so many reasons. Why even have the food destruction? Magic Old God ice-storm freezing and starving all the Baretheon's is enough, and doesn't need loving Ninja-Northmen.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:39
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Lionel Richie posted:"We had an assistant named Dave Hill," said Benioff and Weiss. "One day last summer he walked into our office and said, 'You know how Stannis really loves his daughter?' 'Yeah?' 'Well,' said Dave, doesn't it make sense that he'd burn her alive? What else is he going to do?' 'You're right,' we said. 'That does make sense.' 'This year, Dave Hill is a writer on the show." It is good to laugh again.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:41
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In It For The Tank posted:I fail to see an issue with this. That's the tragedy of it all. "The King who Cared", who has been shat on his whole life for doing his duty, gets shat on again for doing his duty. And this time it's too much. Midnight City posted:Whatever reasoning they give is still going to be ludicrous, Stannis hasn't ever actually risked anything for Mel's red god bullshit. First two times he let her be rowed underneath a castle, no risk to himself, second time he let her burn 3 leeches (one of which will never be brought up apparently) and now he's burning his loved daughter for.....? The scene has Selyse saying they'll starve to death. Burning Shireen is going to....cause a mass migration of deer through their camp?
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Jun 7, 2015 19:41
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Dolash posted:
I disagree. There nothing satisfying or "stronger" with Stannis killing his daughter he was specifically shown to care about. Stannis is killing his daughter because show Ramsey basically has super powers at this point, putting Stannis in a bind. As a narrative construct, it is extremely unsatisfying compared to all the other "shock" situations the characters have been put into. Rob made mistakes, Ned made mistakes, and they faced consequences. Stannis' character is changed on a dime because Ramsey is a better fighter than Selmy, the Mountain, the Hound and Jorah combined.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:42
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Lionel Richie posted:"We had an assistant named Dave Hill," said Benioff and Weiss. "One day last summer he walked into our office and said, 'You know how Stannis really loves his daughter?' 'Yeah?' 'Well,' said Dave, doesn't it make sense that he'd burn her alive? What else is he going to do?' 'You're right,' we said. 'That does make sense.' 'This year, Dave Hill is a writer on the show." this is exactly how it went on
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Jun 7, 2015 19:42
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Midnight City posted:Whatever reasoning they give is still going to be ludicrous, Stannis hasn't ever actually risked anything for Mel's red god bullshit. First two times he let her be rowed underneath a castle, no risk to himself, second time he let her burn 3 leeches (one of which will never be brought up apparently) and now he's burning his loved daughter for.....? The scene has Selyse saying they'll starve to death. Burning Shireen is going to....cause a mass migration of deer through their camp? The Red God is the God of light and fire, breaking a blizzard sounds like it's in his portfolio. Burning Shireen allowing the army to get out of the snow and attack Winterfell is perfectly plausible. As for risking stuff, Stannis has often been on the fence about using Melisandre's power, which is why she's had to use tricks and manipulations to get him involved and Davos has been around to talk him out of it. He was just coming around to burning Gendry when Davos intervened. Here he even turned Melisandre down the first time she offered to burn Shireen, and he only goes for it when it seems like it's the only choice besides giving up entirely.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:43
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Honesty the whole ninja Ramsay thing isn't really that bad. Obviously they're sneaking into the camp late at night and going stealth on them to burn their food and then just run off. Not like that's super unbelievable with all their men freezing and starving and barely being able to stay alive as it is.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:44
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So It Goes posted:Rob made mistakes, Ned made mistakes, and they faced consequences. Stannis is making a mistake by burning his daughter. He will likely face some consequences for it.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:45
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meristem posted:It brings a thaw. Watch the E10 preview. It thawing doesn't just make the destroyed food reappear, he said he has 6,000+ men, no deer hunting is going to solve that. Maybe it's just something you're not supposed to even think about.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:46
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^^^^^You can think about it. He can't march in a blizzard, blowing winds and snow will slow his to a crawl. If the blizzard breaks they can make it to Winterfell faster, i.e. before they starve.So It Goes posted:I disagree. There nothing satisfying or "stronger" with Stannis killing his daughter he was specifically shown to care about. It's a lot stronger, because if he values the person he sacrifices, it's a sacrifice. Imagine if he had Theon lying around and thought "Well sure, King's Blood, and he's a wretch, go ahead and burn him." That's an easy choice. It has to be the daughter he loves to show that he's putting his campaign over his family. That's why they made sure to clarify that although he's stiff Stannis does love Shireen. You might as well complain Ned was just "put in a bind" because Cersei had super powers that guaranteed she could kill a king by getting him drunk while hunting, or that Robb falling in love/taking comfort in someone's arms was contrived because all he had to do was not do that and hey, presto, marry a Frey your problems are over. This is a scenario that makes sense for all the characters involved and only depends on the outcome of a raid, hardly the craziest thing a plot's hinged on.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:46
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Dolash posted:The Red God is the God of light and fire, breaking a blizzard sounds like it's in his portfolio. Burning Shireen allowing the army to get out of the snow and attack Winterfell is perfectly plausible. Couldn't he just have wished for all the Bolton men to die and for the storm to clear? Seems like such a waste of the supposedly powerful royal blood.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:47
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Stannis never said he loved his daughter, he views her as property he's meant to protect by law. He's a lovely person in the show but in the books he was going to burn his child nephew alive just to kill Robb, Joff and Balon. If Stannis is faced with dying of starvation in a snow storm along with his entire army thus ending his war or burning his daughter he's going to burn his daughter at the end of the day.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:47
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Stannis is making a mistake by burning his daughter. He will likely face some consequences for it. Yes Stannis facing a consequence for burning his daughter is fine. Its the burning of the daughter that is terrible narrative and character writing and a lazy attempt at "shock" without proper set-up for it. e: Dolash posted:^^^^^You can think about it. He can't march in a blizzard, blowing winds and snow will slow his to a crawl. If the blizzard breaks they can make it to Winterfell faster, i.e. before they starve. You seem to be viewing "stronger" purely in the sense it is a more "shocking" thing to have happen. I don't view it as "stronger" because the context of how it develops, it is weak and inconsistent. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:48
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The Ramsay poo poo is even dumber because Stannis almost starved to death once and now he left all his food unprotected? You'd think that would be the first thing he ever thought about when marching an army. "Sire we have 800 men stationed along..." "WHERE IS THE FOOD?"
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Jun 7, 2015 19:48
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Dolash posted:The Red God is the God of light and fire, breaking a blizzard sounds like it's in his portfolio. Burning Shireen allowing the army to get out of the snow and attack Winterfell is perfectly plausible. attack winterfell how? he doesnt have siege weapons, he doesn't have food apparently, the Boltons can just sit behind their walls and watch them freeze to death unless Melisandre is burning Shireen to summon the dragon beneath Winterfell they are hosed and burning this poor girl was useless
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Jun 7, 2015 19:49
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So It Goes posted:Yes Stannis facing a consequence for burning his daughter is fine. Its the burning of the daughter that is terrible narrative and character writing and a lazy attempt at "shock" without proper set-up for it. Not really. e: fixed time code. BillBear fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:49
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When Theon and Sansa escape from Winterfell they'll hop from a window and Ramsay will be there waiting for them, along with the person he flaying who told him. Alternatively Sansa or Theon stab Ramsay but it's only a body double.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:50
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Midnight City posted:It thawing doesn't just make the destroyed food reappear, he said he has 6,000+ men, no deer hunting is going to solve that. I'm not sure he sacrifices her for the snows to thaw specifically, he probably sacrifices her thinking it will grant him victory and so right as the snow stops dropping he considers it a sign and marches right to winterfell. Or perhaps Ramsay burnt just the right amount of supplies to give Stannis the means to besiege winterfell but starve immediately otherwise, whatever works really.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:50
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We don't know exactly how Stannis is going to lay siege to Winterfell, exact army logistics and guard rotations on the food tent is nitpicky and not the material complaint. It'll be ladders and rams if they really need to come to that. There's tons of setup for burning Shireen. Establishing his relationship with his daughter, establishing burning people for power with Gendry and showing his indecision, establishing Stannis's guilt over killing family to pursue the throne, this is the culmination of his entire plotline since he was introduced.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:52
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Stannis burns Shireen to finally kill Balon. I never expected people would want Brienne to kill Stannis... So is there going to be a scene of Ramsay laughing his head off? And are we even going to get Theon/Reek's development considering there are only 2 episodes left and he probably isn't even in this one? Confession to the heart tree, "I should have died with him", "when you have known the kiss of a flaying knife, a laugh looses all its power to hurt you", you've got to remember your name, being pressured into being a hero and saving Jeyne/Sansa, laughing in Stannis' face... Don't tell me Allen can't do that. So much good stuff excised. And why is Roose Bolton being wasted.
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