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Kanos posted:IBO at least implies that the super-states are artificial constructs brought into being at the end of a barrel of a gun as a result of apocalyptic war, which is a far sight more plausible than "Each disparate ethnic and tribal group in Africa united to form a gigantic pan-African nation and then merged with all of Europe and the Europeans agreed to call the result the African Union". Yeah, if you must have super states that's more likely, I suppose, but ultimately I'm just assuming the series doesn't care about earth geopolitics in a more than tokenistic way until we're shown otherwise. The emphasis has been on Mars and on internal factional conflict at Gjallahorn- the latter stuff is pretty good and a decent portrayal of the struggle between the metropolis and the self-interest of local imperial agents. I'm currently watching Turn-A since it gets good press around here (and deserves it) and that series scores highly with me since the result of the apocalyptic war was apparently a number of culturally similar but politically distinct provinces.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:41
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Astro Nut posted:Its a similar story with other areas that they just couldn't colonise to become the ethnic majority - India is a prime example, with local rulers that favoured European interests being rewarded, whilst simultaneously being encouraged to compete with each other. When independence happened, there were 650 'princely states' that had to become one country. Not surprising that things got... messy, for a while. It's still a loving mess, in my opinion. (I am ethnically Indian, before anyone makes claims of racism.) A lot of current third-world nations only remain third-world because of political fuckery from western nations. Africa just happens to be the easiest region to gently caress with. In fact, the west was so effective with loving over West Africa that they caused an Ebola outbreak.  (See the VICE documentary on the Cannibal Warlords of Liberia)A unified, or at least a well developed, Africa is a rather fantastical thing to conceptualize because there's barely any hint of it in today's Africa. The best they have is Egypt and South Africa, neither of which are quite there yet, and Egypt seems to be moving backwards of late. The good thing about it is that sci-fi writers can make it into whatever they want. I hope the show goes to Africa and shows off its version.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:56
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Red Bones posted:I wish she'd been introduced with another person from the independence movement (I think we're finally seeing another one in episode five), honestly. She's important enough to have the government try to murder her and to be sent to Earth to rally support, but so unsure of herself that she loses faith in her role and considers being a pilot almost immediately after she finds out how harsh the government can be to her. She's kinda uninformed but somewhat important, and it'd be really nice to know what the rest of her political movement is like compared to her. Kudelia's characterization has been pretty spot on for what would happen if an idealistic privileged activist came face to face with the harsh reality of what they're trying to change. She understands, intellectually, that things are poo poo and need to change, and she probably even has a lot of ideas about how those things need to change. The problem is that change on a political level usually takes a lot of time and inertia and operates at a macro level rather than a micro level. Thrust into a situation with a bunch of the victims she's trying to save, she is initially seized with hopelessness about her ability to actually help the people around her and grasps for a more immediate solution(piloting a robot). To use a real life analogue, imagine if an activist in favor of intervention in Darfur to stop the massacres there suddenly found themselves on the ground in Darfur. Assuming they didn't immediately die, they'd probably want to pick up a gun.
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Oct 30, 2015 18:57
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I'm hoping the Martian independence movement contains at least some people who use violence to achieve their ends, and that the show ends up dealing with the divide between Kudelia's status as the nominal figurehead of the movement and what the various people fighting for independence are actually doing.
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Oct 30, 2015 19:08
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ViggyNash posted:A unified, or at least a well developed, Africa is a rather fantastical thing to conceptualize because there's barely any hint of it in today's Africa. The best they have is Egypt and South Africa, neither of which are quite there yet, and Egypt seems to be moving backwards of late. The good thing about it is that sci-fi writers can make it into whatever they want. I hope the show goes to Africa and shows off its version. 00's africa had a pretty good deal, one of the orbital elevators was square in the middle of the equatorial congo jungle, and it was an enormous disaster that brought together all of humankind when the elevator started having its pieces falling off because all the millions of people (in what is today one of the biggest and least explored wilderness frontiers) in the area would die
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Oct 30, 2015 19:31
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Kanos posted:Kudelia's characterization has been pretty spot on for what would happen if an idealistic privileged activist came face to face with the harsh reality of what they're trying to change. She understands, intellectually, that things are poo poo and need to change, and she probably even has a lot of ideas about how those things need to change. The problem is that change on a political level usually takes a lot of time and inertia and operates at a macro level rather than a micro level. Thrust into a situation with a bunch of the victims she's trying to save, she is initially seized with hopelessness about her ability to actually help the people around her and grasps for a more immediate solution(piloting a robot). I do get what they're trying to do with Kudelia but for me at least, the issue was that at the start of the show it was hard to tell both how involved she was in the independence movement and what the independence movement actually is, with the latter being one thing that we still don't really know. Like we see a clip of her giving a speech, the kids at the base recognise her, she's got enough cred to secure backing for a trip to Earth, people are placing their hopes in her to some extent and all of that suggests this level of respect and authority within pro-independence circles that is immediately contrasted by her caving to self-doubt the moment she realises she's gonna meet armed resistance from the government. It makes more sense to me now that it's feeling more like the independence movement hasn't developed into a concrete political group, and is still mostly a nascent zeitgeist sorta thing, and Kudelia makes a lot more sense in that light. The way she comes across in the initial episodes was just pretty jarring when the prerelease billed her as "a leader of the martian independence movement", when at the moment she seems to be more like a prominent activist than anything else, and not really a leader at all. I do hope she becomes Martian Gandhi though, the idea of her character arc charting her path to being a postcolonial style "mother/father of the nation" type figure is really interesting.
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Oct 31, 2015 14:30
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she's a champagne socialist
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Oct 31, 2015 14:49
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One thing to remember here is that Mika does seem to have a certain level of faith in Kudelia. He's trying to encourage her and teach her because he does seem to believe that she can make his and his friends' lives better. Guy's blunt and prickly, but he does seem to think she's a project worth investing in.
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Oct 31, 2015 15:09
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Red Bones posted:I do get what they're trying to do with Kudelia but for me at least, the issue was that at the start of the show it was hard to tell both how involved she was in the independence movement and what the independence movement actually is, with the latter being one thing that we still don't really know. Like we see a clip of her giving a speech, the kids at the base recognise her, she's got enough cred to secure backing for a trip to Earth, people are placing their hopes in her to some extent and all of that suggests this level of respect and authority within pro-independence circles that is immediately contrasted by her caving to self-doubt the moment she realises she's gonna meet armed resistance from the government. It makes more sense to me now that it's feeling more like the independence movement hasn't developed into a concrete political group, and is still mostly a nascent zeitgeist sorta thing, and Kudelia makes a lot more sense in that light. The way she comes across in the initial episodes was just pretty jarring when the prerelease billed her as "a leader of the martian independence movement", when at the moment she seems to be more like a prominent activist than anything else, and not really a leader at all. "Leader" can mean a lot of things in the context of a movement, because things like independence movements are often huge and ramshackle and defy nominal control. There could be multiple sub groups that all share the same goal but differ on methodology, for example, or groups that share the same methodology but follow different leaders, or there could be multiple leaders. We don't know yet. My gut feeling is that she's a leader of, as Davincie puts it succinctly, the champagne socialist wing of the movement. She's a young, pretty, idealistic rich girl with a lot of big ideas about how things should be and has given big inspiring speeches to those ends. She'd be a natural figurehead for people like those protesters we saw in the one episode who utilize civil disobedience. She's completely unfamiliar with the realities of combat so it's not likely any actual terrorist groups would view her as a leader.
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Oct 31, 2015 15:20
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Keep in mind though, she is from a rich family but her personal assets are probably very limited. Kudelia certainly can't hire a pmc with her own money, assuming she has any at all after her father tried to have her killed to curry favor with gjallarhorn.
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Oct 31, 2015 18:36
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Kanos posted:Kudelia's characterization has been pretty spot on for what would happen if an idealistic privileged activist came face to face with the harsh reality of what they're trying to change. She understands, intellectually, that things are poo poo and need to change, and she probably even has a lot of ideas about how those things need to change. The problem is that change on a political level usually takes a lot of time and inertia and operates at a macro level rather than a micro level. Thrust into a situation with a bunch of the victims she's trying to save, she is initially seized with hopelessness about her ability to actually help the people around her and grasps for a more immediate solution(piloting a robot). So basically she's a socialist/communist goon that actually acted on what he preached.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:01
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closeted republican posted:So basically she's a socialist/communist goon that actually acted on what he preached. No, see, she's influential.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:13
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And she takes showers, most likely. Serious Frolicking posted:Keep in mind though, she is from a rich family but her personal assets are probably very limited. Kudelia certainly can't hire a pmc with her own money, assuming she has any at all after her father tried to have her killed to curry favor with gjallarhorn. Which is why she contacted the gross fat sponsor to send her funds to support Tekkadan. Said fat sponsor seems to be also backing up Gjallarhorn Mars, incidentally.
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Oct 31, 2015 21:16
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It's implied that Gjallarhorn Mars is pro-independence and wants to martyr Kudelia for the cause behind Earth's back, whereas Gjallarhorn Earth's inspectors are more interested in preserving the status quo. At least on paper. It's possible they'll hear her out since it's shown they're well aware of the scope of the injustice being inflicted on the Martian people and have nothing to do with the assassination attempt. A Mars made independent through violence and ruled by a breakaway Gjallarhorn faction would do Earth's floundering economy no good, and the inspectors know that Earth needs Mars more than Mars needs them. The situation as it stands is untenable, so who knows? It would be better to have friendly relations with a healthy Mars granted independence peacefully than to allow the situation to devolve into a second Calamity War. Or they might not make that particular call and decide stay on the wrong side of the conflict. We'll see how it all plays out.
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Nov 1, 2015 01:38
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Gjallahorn Mars might be trying an agent provacateur kind of thing where killing Kudelia moves the independence groups to violence, thus giving them an excuse to crush the whole lot and look really good to the powers that be on Earth.
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Nov 1, 2015 02:06
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Yeah, I've been assuming they're trying to piss off the Martians enough that they rise up and give them an excuse to crack down. I suppose it's possible that they're trying to start an armed uprising so that they can then lead it, but you'd need to frame someone else for the assassination of Kudelia, rather than just doing it yourself with Gjallahorn forces. I guess it was supposed to be secret, but still. Who are people going to blame for Kudelia's death? Seems way more likely that they want some glory/better pay/more guns/attention so they're creating issues that only they can solve. Though either's possible at this point.
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Nov 1, 2015 02:13
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Yeah. I don't really see Gjallarhorn Mars wanting Martian independence. Coral states everything openly in the second episode: kill Kudelia, radicalize the independence movement, crack down on them and look good for Gjallarhorn Earth's review. Only Mika hosed that up completely for him and now he's in an incredibly awkward position where he can't act openly against Tekkadan with McGillis and Gaelio sniffing around, made even worse by his botched bribe attempt.
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Nov 1, 2015 02:18
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Yeah, I forgot that bit. Whoops.
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Nov 1, 2015 02:38
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I'm not really clear on what her dad got from selling her out and what he actually did.
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Nov 1, 2015 08:48
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Serious Frolicking posted:I'm not really clear on what her dad got from selling her out and what he actually did. It's implied he told Gjallarhorn where she was and what her plans were. I think he's in some high government job, so gaining independence would ruin his cushy little position along with whatever privileges/kickbacks Gjallarhorn gives him.
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Nov 1, 2015 08:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's implied he told Gjallarhorn where she was and what her plans were. I think he's in some high government job, so gaining independence would ruin his cushy little position along with whatever privileges/kickbacks Gjallarhorn gives him. Also, the space-SS would have him on their poo poo-list. You can see why most folks might be inclined to avoid that.
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Nov 1, 2015 11:44
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That was a cool space fight. I hope Coral is dead though, but he's probably not since they didn't show a shot of him after Mika impaled him. He's been a pretty useless villain so far and Gaelio and Fareed have been far more competent. I don't see much reason for him to stick around. Also, i'm glad that even though they're not in mobile suits some of the other Tekkadan guys got to do stuff. Mika wasn't really even the one who saved the day this time. I don't get why Gjallarhorn didn't chase after them though. Unless it's just that mobile suits don't have the firepower to bust through a ship's hull or something?
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Nov 1, 2015 13:28
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It's looking like the suits probably can't punch ship armor at this point in the show. Given the large caliber cannons on the other ships in the fight didn't seem to do any lasting damage at this point, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that ship to ship combat is a drawn out slugfest and suits can probably only try to hit vital locations. Between the slingshot maneuver and the flash bomb the Gjallarhorn vessel probably wasn't going to bring the necessary amount firepower around quickly enough to matter.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:32
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SyntheticPolygon posted:That was a cool space fight. I hope Coral is dead though, but he's probably not since they didn't show a shot of him after Mika impaled him. He's been a pretty useless villain so far and Gaelio and Fareed have been far more competent. I don't see much reason for him to stick around. Seems to be a speed thing. Suits can't keep up with ships, and their own ships were badly-angled to chase after Tekkadan. As for Coral, yeah, I'm pretty sure he's as dead as that kid whose worker got kicked in Episode One. We didn't see a body, but we did see his suit get impaled through the cockpit, the rest of the Gjallarhorn team reacting as if he was dead, and McGillis and Gaelio assuming command after the battle.
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Nov 1, 2015 13:35
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That's probably the most tactical you'll get for a space fight. -Keep your distance. You literally can't die if you stay far away. Your value as a decoy is far more important -Akihiro is primarily a delivery man and second distraction. Not a significant threat other than being a 2nd target to spread enemy fire. -Mika finished off his first batch of enemies despite being interrupted by purple boy. -Most everyone is smart in tactics, surprise tactic is a real surprise. Everything else was immediately recognized and countered accordingly. -Barbato's gimmick already used effectively -Mika does not give a gently caress about your cliched speeches and declaration. -Holy poo poo, mobile suits can't do jack poo poo to ships. That hasn't happened except in the beginning of SEED with Archangel's bullshit armor.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:00
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Dulkor posted:It's looking like the suits probably can't punch ship armor at this point in the show. Given the large caliber cannons on the other ships in the fight didn't seem to do any lasting damage at this point, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that ship to ship combat is a drawn out slugfest and suits can probably only try to hit vital locations. Between the slingshot maneuver and the flash bomb the Gjallarhorn vessel probably wasn't going to bring the necessary amount firepower around quickly enough to matter. Also that slingshot maneuver gave them a whole lot of acceleration that they're simply not going to be able to match. Tae posted:-Holy poo poo, mobile suits can't do jack poo poo to ships. That hasn't happened except in the beginning of SEED with Archangel's bullshit armor. They're using projectile weapons of what I can only describe as a relative calibre, rather than beam weapons (basically the mobile suit-sized equivalent of a typical soldier holding an assault rifle). They're smacking into armor designed to deal with (most likely) meteor impacts and much, much larger guns. Handheld Mobile Suit rifles aren't going to do jack in comparison. One thing I love with IBO so far, is that the Gundam's just another (albeit better-built) machine rather than the be-all-end-all one-machine army some series treat them as. The real advantage is actually Mikazuki's implants.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:07
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I think the only thing better about Barbatos is that it's being piloted by someone that is basically using G-Gundam's system when everyone else is using sticks and pedals, but also apparently has super tough armor no one in the modern era uses (Probably for cost reasons).
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Nov 1, 2015 14:09
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Tae posted:I think the only thing better about Barbatos is that it's being piloted by someone that is basically using G-Gundam's system when everyone else is using sticks and pedals, but also apparently has super tough armor no one in the modern era uses (Probably for cost reasons). The Barbatos was probably built to face god-knows-what in the Calamity war (especially as it's implied something obliterated most of the moon in this episode during said war), while a Graze's "merely" strong enough to put down the token combat units present in modern times. The fact that the Graze can't touch it is incidental.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:12
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The other interesting tidbit is McGillis saying Barbatos has appeared before, and has known to be a shitwrecker that changed humanity's destiny.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:15
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Tae posted:The other interesting tidbit is McGillis saying Barbatos has appeared before, and has known to be a shitwrecker that changed humanity's destiny. No, that was more about Gundams in-general rather than the Barbatos specifically (Remember, it's the Barbatos on a Gundam frame).
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Nov 1, 2015 14:16
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McGillis is both genre and series aware. He's going to put on a mask and act surprised when anyone questions why.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:40
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Sextro posted:McGillis is both genre and series aware. He's going to put on a mask and act surprised when anyone questions why. I think Gundams in IBO are more like the Spartan-II's in Halo than anything. They said there's 72 of them in all, but that probably still means they were pretty rare to see when spread across an entire planet (especially if it spread far enough that one winds up on Mars) and probably key to winning whatever battles they popped up in against conventional mobile suits for the time.
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Nov 1, 2015 14:45
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Mika sharing his snacks with Kudelia.  I hope the fruit Sakura sent will last them the trip the Earth.
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Nov 1, 2015 15:59
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Tae posted:I think the only thing better about Barbatos is that it's being piloted by someone that is basically using G-Gundam's system when everyone else is using sticks and pedals, but also apparently has super tough armor no one in the modern era uses (Probably for cost reasons). Grazes are also using nano-laminate armor, which is why while they could trade potshots with Mika all day long everyone needs to get close and personal to deliver a killing blow. And geez, if you needed any confirmation that Ein is the series' Jerid. McGillis is a cool cat.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:12
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Tae posted:I think the only thing better about Barbatos is that it's being piloted by someone that is basically using G-Gundam's system when everyone else is using sticks and pedals, but also apparently has super tough armor no one in the modern era uses (Probably for cost reasons). Honestly, the Barbatos's armor didn't even seem that special compared to the enemy suits, either. While the Barbatos certainly bounced some long range shots, the Grazes were equally unfazed by the Barbatos's gun. It only started getting lethal when close combat occurred. This sort of crunchy pseudo-realistic space combat is a really new take for Gundam, where relative ranges matter for armor penetration, acceleration and deceleration is a serious thing for ships, and ships and suits can't just blast each other apart like nothing.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:13
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 That was all kinds of amazing, I don't know where to begin. BTW, which Gundam is a good crash course on the history of the world? I get the idea of a massive war changing both the political and, to an extent, physical landscape, and that Gundam frames are somehow special compared to other mobile suits, but I get the feeling that the impact of some of the more technical details of the show are dependent on a clearer understanding of the lore of the world. At the same time, the show feels independent enough that even an newbie like me has no trouble following and enjoying the story.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:25
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ViggyNash posted:
This one's unrelated to the Universal Century stuff. Some Gundam series are entirely stand-alone franchises. (Seed, Wing, 00, Build Fighters and G Gundam, respectively).
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Nov 1, 2015 16:28
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ViggyNash posted:
This show is completely standalone, it does not take place in the same world as any other gundam show.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:35
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Droyer posted:This show is completely standalone, it does not take place in the same world as any other gundam show. Or, based on the comment about Gundams this episode, it takes place in the same world as all of them, and not-Hitler isn't the only terrible moustache going around.
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Nov 1, 2015 16:57
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I'm actually kinda confused if mustache is still pretending to be a fool, or what because what was his original betrayal plan if he didn't expect the Gallhorns?
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Nov 1, 2015 16:59
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