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Makanai's a chump, he's barely developed, he only exists as a temporary source of aid towards Kudelia/Tekkadan before he unceremoniously betrays their goals for his own: regaining Prime Ministership of Arbrau, expanding his personal power. The current PM may be in Gjallarhorn's pocket, but how she got there has merit: Makanai is likely as corrupt as she says, where there is smoke, there is fire.
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Mar 21, 2016 06:00
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But that's kind of a theme in this show, that it takes blood, sweat, and tears to slightly tip unbalanced scales to be ever so slightly less unbalanced, and that there's always going to be shady jerks pulling all the strings. Tekkadan's story here is that of a group trying to get one lady to get one guy into one position to influence one fourth of the constituents mostly subservient to Gjallarhorn so maybe in like five or ten years she can make enough connections from her jump-off point in Arbrau to get the things she wants done on Mars. McGillis seems to be wanting Tekkadan to work on his own loftier schemes but I bet you he asks and is refused and things end there. I'm entirely satisfied with a story that does not necessarily end with a band of small children and their reckless guts inciting radical global upheaval. It's gone very well so far as just being about a small ragtag band getting their seemingly-implausible task done so that one day things might be a little better for their friends and family back home.
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Mar 21, 2016 06:38
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Kanos posted:Gaelio clearly orders Stenja and Co to "go support the mobile worker forces"(which seems odd because the mobile workers are in the city, which means no mobile suits allowed) They were on the bridges just outside the city, trying to stop Tekkadan's mobile worker assault.
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Mar 21, 2016 09:27
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Lemon-Lime posted:They were on the bridges just outside the city, trying to stop Tekkadan's mobile worker assault. Yeah, but I assumed that since the reason why Mobile Suits can't enter the city is because of Ahab Reactor interference that would mean "right next to the city but technically not in it" was still out of bounds. Tekkadan wasn't using their mobile suits to bombard the defending mobile workers from outside of the city.
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Mar 21, 2016 09:40
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Kanos posted:Yeah, but I assumed that since the reason why Mobile Suits can't enter the city is because of Ahab Reactor interference that would mean "right next to the city but technically not in it" was still out of bounds. Tekkadan wasn't using their mobile suits to bombard the defending mobile workers from outside of the city. They don't need to stand on the city side of the bridges to attack Tekkadan's mobile workers. The Tekkadan mobile suits spent three days preventing the Gjallarhorn mobile suits from flanking the Tekkadan mobile workers. They didn't get any closer to the city because they were assigned to the rearguard, not because getting one Ahab reactor near the bridges would kill the city power grid. Gaelio removed that obstacle by engaging Tekkadan's mobile suits, then ordered Gjallarhorn's mobile suits to go do what they'd been trying to do for three days straight.
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Mar 21, 2016 09:48
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rudatron posted:There's plenty of room for Season 2 - McGillis is the driving character here, and he's yet to encounter any real resistance. Makanai is giving real signs of being a lot more dangerous than he lets on, and we've yet to really deal with the real rear end in a top hat in the earlier part of the season, Nobliss. They're still all shadowy people working behind the scenes, towards mostly unknown (but speculated) end-goals, and I think it wouldn't be satisfying to just leave it like that. The major thing I'd say there is that McGillis is the only one of those guys who would ever see combat left. Makanai, Nobliss, Henri Fleur and so-on are all people who Kudelia has to defeat. It's an overarching part of the show that they're not guys who someone can just kill and the problem is resolved and it would be a little unsatisfying to have them defeat in the short term at all since they're supposed to be part of an entrenched problem. They obviously can introduce an entirely new antagonist cast to fill this role for season 2 should it happen so it isn't unworkable, but IBO is actually working towards closing off its plot threads. It's just a question on if that is a clean sweep to allow for a rushed ending or a clean sweep to allow for a fresher Season 2.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:15
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Gyra_Solune posted:did ein just like, double this show's bodycount in five minutes all by himself Mikazuki has killed a lot of people.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:47
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I think my favorite "hosed up" Mika moment is where Akihiro is like "okay, Mika, my brother is in this robot, PLEASE don't kill it, it is piloted by an enslaved child soldier." Mika agrees. Then he proceeds to shamelessly plaster every single other child soldier robot's pilot against the goddamn wall. Kept his promise! Sucks for those other guys they didn't have a brother in Tekkadan.
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Mar 21, 2016 15:55
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That one I think was pretty understandable actually - Mika even said that he would try to spare him, but would not risk anyone getting hurt over it. Doing that for one opponent is difficult enough, but for the whole lot of them (including their boss in a Gundam) is another thing entirely. He certainly could have afforded to hold back more than he did, but in the end it was a life or death situation against opponents that were going to fight just as dirty as Tekkadan. I'd blame how hosed up the IBO setting is more than I would Mika in this case.
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Mar 21, 2016 16:06
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Lemon-Lime posted:They don't need to stand on the city side of the bridges to attack Tekkadan's mobile workers. I get what you're saying, now. Watching the scene again, it looks like it's meant to be inferred that Gaelio ordered Stenja and company to support the mobile workers and Akihiro intervened to hold them up and stop them from murdering the rest of Tekkadan, which would also neatly explain why he wasn't able to bring his vastly-more-powerful-than-the-Roueis Gundam in to fight Ein. ImpAtom posted:The major thing I'd say there is that McGillis is the only one of those guys who would ever see combat left. Makanai, Nobliss, Henri Fleur and so-on are all people who Kudelia has to defeat. It's an overarching part of the show that they're not guys who someone can just kill and the problem is resolved and it would be a little unsatisfying to have them defeat in the short term at all since they're supposed to be part of an entrenched problem. They obviously can introduce an entirely new antagonist cast to fill this role for season 2 should it happen so it isn't unworkable, but IBO is actually working towards closing off its plot threads. It's just a question on if that is a clean sweep to allow for a rushed ending or a clean sweep to allow for a fresher Season 2. It could go either way at this point. I feel like with one episode left there's no room for a satisfying ending if they intend to end it for good here, since we've got to pack in an Ein/Mika fight and a Gaelio/McGillis fight in addition to whatever Makanai and Kudelia are going to do, but it's plausible that they might try to do it(probably by offscreening the Gaelio/McGillis fight). Them killing off most of the established enemy mobile suit pilots is meaningless re: a second season because the entrenched power structures are still in place and it's pretty easy to introduce enemy pilots; hell, Carta went from introduction to death in like 5 episodes. It's hard to read based on this episode.
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Mar 21, 2016 16:50
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Kanos posted:Sick dodge on ignoring the part where I pointed out that you were completely wrong in attacking me for making poo poo up in the scene favor of this I felt it was pointless since it is literally an argument about whose transcription is more accurate, we had both put up our versions, the scene is right there for anyone to play back, so they speak for themselves, and any further discussion on the matter between us would inevitably devolve into "no the expression on Orga's face is clearly a mild grimace not horrified shock as you might have us believe" and I already feel bad enough derailing this thread as it is (so this will be my last post on the matter). If you really want a response to the points you brought up give me a way to contact you privately and I will provide them, or if people other than us are interested I will just post it but I am guessing that is a resounding no. Another reason is that it is an irrelevant point considering the argument your transcription is supporting, that the scene was messed up but that I did not get messed up vibes from it, is wrong. In that sense I regret even bringing it up instead of sticking to clarifying that error. You say now that your point with that post was something different, so I'll just let it speak for itself since I have an appointment with a firearm I can't bear to miss: Kanos posted:I actually cannot possibly understand how someone could watch the scene in question and not immediately get "wow, this is pretty messed up" vibes from it, regardless of how well-animated or choreographed it is. Do you think Scarface is a movie about how drugs are awesome because Tony Montana got rich off them for a bit before they destroyed his life and killed him? Xy Hapu fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Mar 21, 2016 |
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Mar 21, 2016 19:01
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So,since we're pretty close to the end,what are the thread's general thoughts on the show? It's personally one of my favorite non-UC shows, an 8 out of 10 (would be a 9 if Naze got less screentime).
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Mar 21, 2016 19:24
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VolticSurge posted:So,since we're pretty close to the end,what are the thread's general thoughts on the show? It's personally one of my favorite non-UC shows, an 8 out of 10 (would be a 9 if Naze got less screentime). My feeling is that, so far, it's a good show but not a great show. The villains are extremely weak. The vast majority of them are jokes who either don't fit into a setting trying to be serious or who are bland and forgettable. They both fail to provide engaging characters OR meaningful and memorable threats to the protagonist. Galieo and Ein are the closest and honestly they spent the entire series getting clowned until he got a Gundam (which lasted one engagement before returning to clowntown) and became a cyborg respectively. Characters like Carta and the Brewers felt like they wandered in from another anime which is drastically sillier than the one we got and while their deaths are somewhat effective it doesn't work for me. Still, the recent episodes have improved this by giving Galieo more meat to his character. The protagonists likewise run a little thin. The core relationship between Mika and Orga is well underplayed and basically goes offscreen for a huge chunk of the story. Mika is an interesting protagonist in that he is genuinely hosed up in a way Gundam child soldiers usually aren't, not even Heero or Setsuna, but he's also fairly static and mostly serves to be the muscle for other characters. Orga ends up kind of sidelined for a good chunk of the middle of the series which tends to leave Kudelia, Atra and Biscuit carrying the plot and while I think all three are good characters they were fairly passive characters. Akihiko got his plot and then sort of became The Other Gundam Pilot and hasn't had much impact since. Shino basically was a walking hot-blooded death flag. The Tekkadan kids are interesting as a group but individually unmemorable. When the protagonists are on they are on and the relationship between Mika and Orga is really good when the show devotes time to it, it is just that it didn't. The supporting cast and worldsetting is largely very interesting and it is the show's strong point. It creates a weird hosed up world where child soldiers thrive and the setting is everyone backstabbing everyone else. The most interesting villains in the show are the ones not in the robots but they also have the smallest interaction with our heroes directly which gives them less impact because it is a mecha show. Still, it's a minor complaint because it fits the themes and ideals of the story and they have Kudelia to 'battle' them. I also personally find Naze Turbine to be my Least Favorite Gundam Supporting Character but that is my own feeling. At very least I find him a kind of tiresome Author's Favorite character who lacks interesting flaws and circumvents interesting conflicts. The mecha fights are genuinely good and make good use of violence and physical impact to be genuinely uncomfortable. The only real problem I have is that Tekkadan is ahead of the game for basically the entire show. It isn't until Episode 24 that we're introduced to an opponent who is a real legitimate threat to them. Between Mika's abilities and Barbatos (and later Gusion Rebake and the Ryuseigo's) capabilities the show basically renders most fights a case of how badly will the enemies get hosed up by Mika. While Gjallerhorn being kind of unprepared for real combat makes sense thematically they take it too far. Carta's troops Ginyu Force Posedowning is funny but it hurts the idea that Mika is a talented pilot when his opponents literally are lining up to get their poo poo wrecked. The core gimmick of the show (salvaging defeated machines for upgrades) also kind of fell to the wayside in favor of new Barbatos parts being delivered by one of their allied groups which isn't a huge flaw but is disappointing. The show's pacing is genuinely an asset and I'm glad it is willing to go multiple episodes without having a fight. However I do think it suffers from some extremely weird moments where the slow pacing suddenly rushes through a bunch of events like they ran out of time. Akihiro's brother being a thing where he attacks literally seconds after he is mentioned is one of the ones that stands out here. The lack of constant fights is great but I think the pacing is a little too slow or fast in other areas. Still, I really appreciate the show being willing to treat its characters like characters and not shove them into a toyetic fight every single episode and I hope it doesn't hurt the show or end up being something where the result is the next show (or Season 2 of IBO) is Nonstop Fighting Forever.
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Mar 21, 2016 19:46
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ImpAtom posted:My feeling is that, so far, it's a good show but not a great show. Yeah,fair enough. For me,it's in the same area as The Force Awakens-not Citizen Kane, but also not AGE/the prequels,so it gets a pass.
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Mar 21, 2016 20:26
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VolticSurge posted:Yeah,fair enough. For me,it's in the same area as The Force Awakens-not Citizen Kane, but also not AGE/the prequels,so it gets a pass. Yeah, it's nowhere near the realm of Age or whatever. I sound a bit nitpicky but it isn't a bad show which alone puts it relatively high in terms of Gundam shows!
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Mar 21, 2016 20:29
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If they had 50 episodes they could have more time to flesh out... well, everything. Or Dort coulda dragged on even longer, I dunno
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Mar 21, 2016 21:27
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ImpAtom posted:The show's pacing is genuinely an asset and I'm glad it is willing to go multiple episodes without having a fight. However I do think it suffers from some extremely weird moments where the slow pacing suddenly rushes through a bunch of events like they ran out of time. Akihiro's brother being a thing where he attacks literally seconds after he is mentioned is one of the ones that stands out here. The lack of constant fights is great but I think the pacing is a little too slow or fast in other areas. Still, I really appreciate the show being willing to treat its characters like characters and not shove them into a toyetic fight every single episode and I hope it doesn't hurt the show or end up being something where the result is the next show (or Season 2 of IBO) is Nonstop Fighting Forever. See, I agree with you on every other point, but I think this is one of the big point where IBO suffers the most. The middle part of the show, before they made it to Dort, was slower paced but didn't really do anything with all that extra time. They could have perhaps developed the villains more and tried to give them more of a presence, focus on the Gjallarhorn side of things as Tekkadan went through the vastness of space, et cetera. But no, instead they kinda seemed to focus on... the Kudelia domestic situation of the ship? Where she was kind of clueless and learning lessons all the time? I feel like a lot of stuff could be cut without consequence to the show that would be better for it. Hell, cut the entire arc about the Brewers; that was really the weakest part of the show for me. You have these cartoon villains who are incredibly cartoonishly evil and have the same monstrous designs as villains from an 80's anime, Guts' brother who was brought up for the first time a minute before showing up, et cetera. It picked up steam at the end with Mikazuki killing everything and thinking about if he enjoys killing, but it really clashes with the really good beginning and end of the show. I also feel that the fights in space were generally pretty bad looking and the choreography/animation is a lot better when they're fighting on Mars/Earth, but that's obviously just my taste in it. It just seems odd to me that you have a show which emphasizes the weight of physical combat... which then spends half the show in space with combat that doesn't really have a good feeling of mass.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:35
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I could've gone for Kudelia being less ridiculously sheltered and white guilt-y. I like her in general but sometimes her privileged behaviour is really over the top when it doesn't need to be to contrast with the nature of the child soldiers.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:47
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RubricMarine posted:See, I agree with you on every other point, but I think this is one of the big point where IBO suffers the most. The middle part of the show, before they made it to Dort, was slower paced but didn't really do anything with all that extra time. They could have perhaps developed the villains more and tried to give them more of a presence, focus on the Gjallarhorn side of things as Tekkadan went through the vastness of space, et cetera. But no, instead they kinda seemed to focus on... the Kudelia domestic situation of the ship? Where she was kind of clueless and learning lessons all the time? I feel like a lot of stuff could be cut without consequence to the show that would be better for it. Honestly, I don't disagree with you on any of those points. I like it being willing to slow down but I have a hard time saying it doesn't use that time poorly at time. I guess I just appreciate that it's willing to try.
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Mar 21, 2016 21:51
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...my biggest disappointment is that Ein's Ultra Death Hell Machine - The Eviscerator of Souls is apparently not like, Gundam Baal or something, no, it's just the Graze Ein that's the weirdest thing about this show, they firmly establish a theme with the names of Gundams and even to an extent what they all do, but then don't seem to use it much?
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Mar 21, 2016 22:27
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Gyra_Solune posted:...my biggest disappointment is that Ein's Ultra Death Hell Machine - The Eviscerator of Souls is apparently not like, Gundam Baal or something, no, it's just the Graze Ein Well, the idea of creating 72 distinct Gundams (even if they quietly said only 26 are still around) means they have plenty of room for sidestories and sequels if it takes off. Gundam Astaroth is already showing up in a manga sidestory for example.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:34
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Here's hoping for a Seven Stars of Gjallarhorn prequel at the closing days of the Calamity War, that ends full of hope for a bright future under the noble guardianship of knights-pilot and their custom mobile suits 
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Mar 21, 2016 22:37
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Still holding out hope for an official Gundam Caim design.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:42
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Boy, if the guys left on the ship had radioed ahead to say they were coming, maybe Orga could've come up with a better plan that got fewer people killed. That's just not Eugene's style, I guess. I hope Gaelio beats McGillis. just to mess up the whole plan.
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Mar 21, 2016 22:45
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boom boom boom posted:Boy, if the guys left on the ship had radioed ahead to say they were coming, maybe Orga could've come up with a better plan that got fewer people killed. That's just not Eugene's style, I guess. Not gonna lie, I'd be completely down with McGillis smugging his rear end off about how Gaelio is hosed and then Gaelio points out he's custom-tuned his Gundam and trained to take down a guy with A-V system and just hands him his rear end. "Hey, McGillis, remember how I am *literally* the only person to go into battle with the Barbatos multiple times and survive, even if it involved some jumping-in-front-of-a-gun on Ein's part? gently caress yoooooou."
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Mar 21, 2016 22:48
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ImpAtom posted:Not gonna lie, I'd be completely down with McGillis smugging his rear end off about how Gaelio is hosed and then Gaelio points out he's custom-tuned his Gundam and trained to take down a guy with A-V system and just hands him his rear end. "Hey, McGillis, remember how I am *literally* the only person to go into battle with the Barbatos multiple times and survive, even if it involved some jumping-in-front-of-a-gun on Ein's part? gently caress yoooooou." That would be great and I support it 100%
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Mar 21, 2016 22:56
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Then before the final blow lands, the Grimgerde glows red as McGillis yells ALAYA-VIJNANA
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Mar 21, 2016 22:59
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If Season 2 happens, I want Punished Gaelio - A Fallen Legend - in it.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:00
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Gaelio, out of his depth, tormented by what he did to Ein and what McGillis did to him and Carta, suddenly in charge of Gjallarhorn would be great.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:05
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boom boom boom posted:Gaelio, out of his depth, tormented by what he did to Ein and what McGillis did to him and Carta, suddenly in charge of Gjallarhorn would be great. I would be excited to see how many limbs the Kimaris had by that point.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:07
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Really though, McGillis can't die because him murdering Gaelio and then marrying his sister who isn't aware of what really happened is the kind of pathos that people signed up for when they saw Mari Okada on the credits
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Mar 21, 2016 23:10
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Eej posted:Really though, McGillis can't die because him murdering Gaelio and then marrying his sister who isn't aware of what really happened is the kind of pathos that people signed up for when they saw Mari Okada on the credits yeah, but Gaelio finding out Mcgillis had been playing him and Carta the whole time, killing him, and then coming home to find his sister crying because her fiancee was killed in battle ain't bad either.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:16
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Most tragic outcome: McGillis and Gali-Gali double-kill each other and the last shot is the sister, enraged and angry at what she believes to be the murder of both her brother and her fiancee, enlisting in the army to prepare for the start of a new cycle of violence.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:18
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ImpAtom posted:Most tragic outcome:
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Mar 21, 2016 23:20
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Zedd posted:Will she cry Saji a lot and meet a yet almost-unmentioned son of a liked character? Crank's son grew up to be a real rear end in a top hat.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:23
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boom boom boom posted:I hope Gaelio beats McGillis. just to mess up the whole plan. I am also down for this. McGillis appearing himself to smug it up and take his old friend down in a red robot really does make me want to see it blow up in his face. It doesn't help that even this late in the game McGillis has incomprehensible motives while Gali-Gali is easily the most human and interesting antagonist in the show after everything he's been through.
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Mar 21, 2016 23:44
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McGillis has pretty obvious motives: he wants to burn the whole thing down. He arranges for Tekkadan to transport Kudelia safely to Earth because she is a key figure to revolution. If she makes it alive, she can cause further dissent through negotiations and if she dies, she will be a martyr for the cause. Gjallarhorn will be forced to respond to Tekkadan and fighting will happen, leading to casualties on both sides (nevermind the child soldiers) which looks horrible because it looks like Gjallarhorn is interfering with the political affairs of a nation when it is ostensibly neutral. Goading Carta into fighting them weakens the Seven Stars by depriving them of one of their heirs, marrying Almiria gives him political power and the only real question is what his intentions for Gaelio are. On one hand, Graze Ein is a walking political disaster which is great for McGillis on the other hand I'm not sure if he wants Gaelio to reform Gjallarhorn from within or just kill him because he is part of the establishment.
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Mar 22, 2016 00:01
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 Whew, that solves that problem
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Mar 22, 2016 00:02
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Eej posted:McGillis has pretty obvious motives: he wants to burn the whole thing down. He arranges for Tekkadan to transport Kudelia safely to Earth because she is a key figure to revolution. If she makes it alive, she can cause further dissent through negotiations and if she dies, she will be a martyr for the cause. Gjallarhorn will be forced to respond to Tekkadan and fighting will happen, leading to casualties on both sides (nevermind the child soldiers) which looks horrible because it looks like Gjallarhorn is interfering with the political affairs of a nation when it is ostensibly neutral. Goading Carta into fighting them weakens the Seven Stars by depriving them of one of their heirs, marrying Almiria gives him political power and the only real question is what his intentions for Gaelio are. On one hand, Graze Ein is a walking political disaster which is great for McGillis on the other hand I'm not sure if he wants Gaelio to reform Gjallarhorn from within or just kill him because he is part of the establishment. Those aren't motives- that's a (excessively convoluted) plan. Even now we don't really know why he wants to burn the world down or what 'reforming Gjallahorn' actually means to him. It probably has something to do with his deprived childhood and his overbearing father, but we're still not sure.
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Mar 22, 2016 00:08
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Eej posted:McGillis has pretty obvious motives: he wants to burn the whole thing down. He arranges for Tekkadan to transport Kudelia safely to Earth because she is a key figure to revolution. If she makes it alive, she can cause further dissent through negotiations and if she dies, she will be a martyr for the cause. Gjallarhorn will be forced to respond to Tekkadan and fighting will happen, leading to casualties on both sides (nevermind the child soldiers) which looks horrible because it looks like Gjallarhorn is interfering with the political affairs of a nation when it is ostensibly neutral. Goading Carta into fighting them weakens the Seven Stars by depriving them of one of their heirs, marrying Almiria gives him political power and the only real question is what his intentions for Gaelio are. On one hand, Graze Ein is a walking political disaster which is great for McGillis on the other hand I'm not sure if he wants Gaelio to reform Gjallarhorn from within or just kill him because he is part of the establishment. He's directly engaging Gaelio in a mobile suit battle unmasked. That says 'you have outlived your usefulness' to me. Going to be interesting to see what the Grimgerde can really do in a proper fight. It's actually kind of fun how all three of the show's final battles (Mika versus Ein, Gaelio versus McGillis, and Akihiro versus Stenja's suit forces) are Gundam versus Zaku.
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Mar 22, 2016 00:08
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