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TheNakedFantastic posted:A huge amount of the armchair psychologist garbage from this thread could apply in equal measure leftists "radicals"
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Sep 30, 2016 03:46
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It's not as simple as they are gently caress ups. The people I know that ended up as neo nazis weren't horrible people. They just failed over and over again at their goals. One person I know couldn't get into either the Army or Marines. Just couldn't do well enough on the ASVAB. Tried for years. And I know how easy the ASVAB is, yes this person was that challenged. But that type of failure over time can turn a goofy if a little dumb guy into a wreck inside. Then these groups basically roll up and offer acceptance in exchange for belief in thier ideology. When society fails to incorporate the marginal these extremist groups prey on thier desire for meaning and acceptance.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:09
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I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that these people are uncaring. It's that they were offered meaning and acceptance when it was absent from thier lives, transgressing the hate groups norms means losing that meaning and acceptance. It's a threat to thier identity after they are part of the group. Edit: another way to say this is: The payment of sin is death. If these people were not separated from society and the promises of our society this opportunity for hate groups would not exist and we would not have to face it's consequences. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 04:15
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OwlFancier posted:Where's this subculture of angry virgin communists and why haven't I heard about them, they sound cool. ...You are posting it in right now. The inability of most of the people here to see things from the other point of view is just baffling. All the generic insults lobbed by the posters in this thread, especially the dumb bullshit about the alt-right being a consequence of white losers "not getting laid", is an almost perfect mirror image of what they say about us and about as accurate. Sethex posted:Opinion articles without evidence don't usually counteract opinion posts lacking evidence. No evidence? See all the blue links? That's evidence. You're certainly free to disagree with his conclusions but the guy who wrote that article makes a much more solid argument than anything I've seen in this thread. http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/amp/?client=ms-android-bell-ca&espv=1 ...Re-posting for the new page on the off-chance anyone can come up with a decent counter-argument that isn't just a vague one-liner.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:30
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is "lol breitbart" a one-liner
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Sep 30, 2016 04:32
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Crazy as this might sound, actually reading alt-right stuff is probably a better way to get a grasp of how they think than speculating about their sex lives.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:35
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Except part of the alt right is explicitly about women being evil because they won't sleep with men. That's literally the basis of the ideology of some of these people, I'm not making that up or exaggerating. I am perfectly willing to entertain the idea that some of the alt right are just racist shitheads and maybe aren't also massive misogynists but some of them definitely are. And they advertise as such. That article isn't even making an argument other than "hmm these people are unspeakable cunts and maybe we should coddle that because fighting them is impossible" Which I wholly reject because no, there is no compromise with people who have such absolutely reprehensible views. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 04:38
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Wow, an article by Milo, I'm sure this will be a honest and hard hitting analysis of the alt-right.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:41
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Some Guy TT posted:Crazy as this might sound, actually reading alt-right stuff is probably a better way to get a grasp of how they think than speculating about their sex lives. No no no, the thread was doing just fine in its exploration of the subject until we let 'source' material gently caress it up. Remember back when the thread was 5 pages of relating the ideological deficiencies of the alt right to a lack of recreational sex, for like 5 pages. #goldenage Some Guy TT posted:
Yeah I agree with you, I see 'from the horses mouth' holding more value than the SA outrage culture goons seeking to throw some insults at their ideological nemesis while calling it intellectual discourse. Sethex fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 04:42
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OwlFancier posted:Except part of the alt right is explicitly about women being evil because they won't sleep with men. OK, see, this would be a really good place for a blue link. The guys who wrote the article provided lots of starting points for the alt-right that have nothing to do with their sex lives. If you disagree, a reference would go a long way to making your argument more convincing. OwlFancier posted:I am perfectly willing to entertain the idea that some of the alt right are just racist shitheads and maybe aren't also massive misogynists but some of them definitely are. And they advertise as such. You know what, I'm just going to quote the part of the article that addresses this- a gay jew and a biracial Pakistani posted:Every ideology has them. Humourless ideologues who have no lives beyond their political crusade, and live for the destruction of the great. They can be found on Stormfront and other sites, not just joking about the race war, but eagerly planning it. They are known as “Stormfags” by the rest of the internet.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:43
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I mean if the dark enlightenment doesn't want me to think it's 100% about men dealing with their women issues they could perhaps spend less time talking about their women issues.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:43
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BrandorKP posted:I guess what I'm saying is that it's not that these people are uncaring. It's that they were offered meaning and acceptance when it was absent from thier lives, transgressing the hate groups norms means losing that meaning and acceptance. It's a threat to thier identity after they are part of the group.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:45
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Some Guy TT posted:OK, see, this would be a really good place for a blue link. The guys who wrote the article provided lots of starting points for the alt-right that have nothing to do with their sex lives. If you disagree, a reference would go a long way to making your argument more convincing. Translation: "Some of the alt right have figured out how to use dogwhistles instead of being open about their racism and misogyny. They like to circlejerk with each other about this on the internet. They would really like to build an entire society where women and minorities are explicitly second class citizens which makes them really constructive people when you think about it."
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Sep 30, 2016 04:46
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OwlFancier posted:You're listening to a rather specific subset of the left. You mean pretty much the campus culture across most NA universities? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-jEQYHAFfjg
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Sep 30, 2016 04:51
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Sethex posted:You mean pretty much the campus culture across most NA universities? That would be a rather specific subset yes given that university campuses can't really do anything to solve economic inequality but can control the environments their students work in, and thus will be primarily concerned with things that fall under that category. E: vvv what the gently caress are you on about?
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Sep 30, 2016 04:52
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"Sir Neo-Nazi do you hereby confess to your abhorrent crime of despising women and minorities and wanting to make them your slaves?" "What the gently caress is going on here I just wanted to make a dumb frog meme where is this coming from?" "AVAST HE IS USING HIS DOGWHISTLE TO SUMMON THE DICKWOLVES BURN HIM!"
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Sep 30, 2016 04:53
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Sethex posted:Most of you guys are basically hysterical about the archetype being some sort of 4channer virgin or something seething with anger, but I prefer this description: What is with this weird passive-aggressive tone about D&D. We all literally hate and disagree with each other all the time here - it's the loving opposite of a circle jerk/safe space.
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Sep 30, 2016 04:57
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^^Again, the alt-right would say the same thing about their own communities.OwlFancier posted:E: vvv what the gently caress are you on about? You've defined "dogwhistle" in such a way that the alt-right is always made up of racist savages regardless of what they actually say or do. Any possible alternate explanation they can offer for these actions is just handwaved as being part of a pernicious plot to trick people into thinking they're sensible. This would be less ridiculous except that hardly a few minutes later you dismiss evidence that bolsters their point by claiming the people in the video only represent a "specific subset", yet apparently the entire alt-right can be safely painted with the same totalitarian brush. (also it was kind of a dumb joke my bad should have just started with this)
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Sep 30, 2016 05:00
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Look we have a term for people who desire to end inequality in the world. It's "the left". The left differs across its spectrum as to exactly what type of inequality needs to end, and how it might be achieved, but the goal always is to destroy disparity, in some form, between people. The right, in contrast, likes disparity, because they act frequently to foster it. They don't see a problem with it, either because they think it is justified, or because they like (the idea of) being on top of it. If the alt-right weren't in favor of inequality they wouldn't be the alt right. They would be the left, that's what the word means. You can wrap up your beliefs however you like but if you identify as right wing, you are either an idiot who doesn't know what words mean, or you are trying to make apologetics for inequality sound less abhorrent than they are. Or possibly you're both, i don't really have much respect for the intellectual capacity of people who think inequality is good. What about any of the sources you've provided suggests that the alt right aren't composed of people who, in some way, really keen on the idea of inequality in society? That they are not, in fact, racist, classist, or misogynist? What do you think they stand for if not any of that? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 05:06
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rudatron posted:There is no reason to choose hate groups. Why they choose hate groups is a question that deserves answers. The hate groups actively seek these people. Alternately it's what they stumble into.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:12
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Some Guy TT posted:^^Again, the alt-right would say the same thing about their own communities. Again, the gently caress? I could say the same about you? What is up with shutting down conversation around here? You refuse to even show this alt-right we have been maligning unjustifiably with some idea that you'll get chased out or something. Back your balls up or don't show them.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:14
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OwlFancier posted:Except part of the alt right is explicitly about women being evil because they won't sleep with men. I thought a lot more of the alt-right was AutoAdmit/MPC careposting, not /r/theredpill people
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Sep 30, 2016 05:15
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The term is broad so I'm sure there are people who are just racist or turbocapitalist rather than necessarily misogynist. I'm not particularly inclined to be charitable towards any of them however and I'm sure there's plenty of spillover.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:16
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OwlFancier posted:What do you think they stand for if not any of that? For the rights of all individuals to have a fair chance to be successful in life. You're certainly free to disagree about whether the policies they support will actually accomplish this goal. But personally, I think it's more constructive to proceed as if our political opponents are not literal cartoon villains trying to use a cartoon frog to ressurrect Hitler from the dead. Armani posted:Again, the gently caress? I could say the same about you? What is up with shutting down conversation around here? You refuse to even show this alt-right we have been maligning unjustifiably with some idea that you'll get chased out or something. Back your balls up or don't show them. ...I'm in the middle of a pissing match with OwlFancier where I asked him to address the article and he responded by iterating how obviously nefariously evil the alt-right is and how anyone would have to be a complete idiot to assume they have any other motivation. The point I keep trying to bring up is that rhetoric on the alt-right is a lot more similar to the rhetoric around here than anyone is willing to admit Let's be serious here. Yeah we poo poo on each other all the time but all the same it's not like we're debating actual Trump supporters, or even Rubio supporters. I'm pissing people off simply by suggesting the alt-right has a coherent thought process beyond white supremacy. I don't believe in their poo poo any more than you do. "Shutting down conversation" indeed. I'm not "refusing to even show", you're refusing to even look. The best rebuttal to the Breitbart article has literally been "lol Breitbart". My argument has consistently been that reading alt-right sites is the best way to understand them, but if you're just going to assume that everything they do is closeted white supremacy well, fat lot of good that would do even if I did link you to specific articles. But this stuff is pretty trivially easy to Google. Ah, I'm tired. I think this guy probably had the right idea. Sethex posted:No no no, the thread was doing just fine in its exploration of the subject until we let 'source' material gently caress it up.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:26
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There is nothing to respond to in the breitbart article, all it does is try to eulogise the alt right by trying to make them sound well meaning, which is completely and utterly irrelevant. The fundamental fact remains that their suggestions for how we should order our society are deeply regressive and completely in opposition to any notion of equality or "a fair chance in life". Now I can either believe that they understand this, and are simply being deliberately misleading to attract followers and get their discourse in more public settings, which is not an unrealistic idea. Or I can believe that they are monumentally stupid and actually think that their dumbfuck ideas will help the world. In neither case is my response altered. They are a force for evil in the world, they contribute nothing of value. They should be opposed at every step, not compromised with in the slightest, and given absolutely no respect or credence by anybody, because nothing that they present merits any of either. Whether they are knowing or unknowing in the abhorrent ideas and practices they promote does not have any bearing whatsoever on my response to those ideas. Reactionary bullshit does not become more valid if we believe the people promoting it are poor well meaning victims. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 05:37
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Some Guy TT posted:For the rights of all individuals to have a fair chance to be successful in life. You're certainly free to disagree about whether the policies they support will actually accomplish this goal. But personally, I think it's more constructive to proceed as if our political opponents are not literal cartoon villains trying to use a cartoon frog to ressurrect Hitler from the dead. This is fine. But you need to show me any alt-righter that remotely believe what you just wrote. Building a metaphorical wall and talking about triple brackets and globalism is not a fair shake for the global masses, sorry. If you wanna talk about some serious people with serious economic woes, my thought isn't the 15-25 year olds who run the loving alt-right train. You think Milo gives a poo poo about coal? Energy? Economic feasibility? Be loving honest, man. I will exercise my right to disagree with the bolded. This is the baseline mission for all human beings on earth. That the alt-right is any champion of this is largely wishful projecting from yourself and little else. quote:
Are you high? C-SPAM and the now nuked GBS are pretty evident examples of everything you just posted here. True blue conservative and right wing supporters. Who can still post and be funny. Like, your point didn't even contradict mine - we talk poo poo on each other all the time because SA is made up of loving every kind of demographic. It's not alt.net.knitting.sweaters where everyone is from your grandma's bingo club with the same idea. You're pissing people off because you're projecting like a movie theater. It's the 'dead, gay comedy forum' joke made by people posting since 1999. quote:
I'll concede this because Milo Is a loving con-man and reading anything by him is a waste of time. That is a man who actively hates me, people like me, and he isn't the one I am going to be able to change his mind or heart on. What, you think that dude gives a poo poo about any sort of working class american of any goddamn stripe? Don't carry water for a guy who can't even be trusted to run a Wal-Mart cashier, never mind a white-man focused scholarship. Armani fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 05:39
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OwlFancier posted:There is nothing to respond to in the breitbart article, all it does is try to eulogise the alt right by trying to make them sound well meaning, which is completely and utterly irrelevant. Did we read the same article? I thought it made them sound like assholes motivated less by actual reasons and more a desire to fling poo poo at people they don't like. Or are you simply assuming that the tone is meant to be positive because they don't write "also, the alt-right is made up of literal nazis" every few paragraphs? Armani posted:This is fine. But you need to show me any alt-righter that remotely believe what you just wrote. I can't prove they believe that anymore than you can prove they can't, especially since we're assuming any non-evil thing written by an alt-righter is just a dogwhistle intended to disguise their fascism. quote:Building a metaphorical wall and talking about triple brackets and globalism is not a fair shake for the global masses, sorry. If you wanna talk about some serious people with serious economic woes, my thought isn't the 15-25 year olds who run the loving alt-right train. You think Milo gives a poo poo about coal? Energy? Economic feasibility? Be loving honest, man. The actual premise of this thread is whether the alt-right is worse than the establishment right. I'm in the minority for believing the establishment right is worse, for exactly these reasons. Antagonistic tone of this post notwithstanding, it appears that you actually agree with me. quote:Are you high? C-SPAM and the now nuked GBS are pretty evident examples of everything you just posted here. True blue conservative and right wing supporters. Who can still post and be funny. Like, your point didn't even contradict mine - we talk poo poo on each other all the time because SA is made up of loving every kind of demographic. It's not alt.net.knitting.sweaters where everyone is from your grandma's bingo club with the same idea. You're pissing people off because you're projecting like a movie theater. It's the 'dead, gay comedy forum' joke made by people posting since 1999. Oh, we're allowed to defend ourselves by referencing parts of the forum that aren't immediately visible to outsiders? Funny how the alt-right isn't allowed that courtesy. But then again they are human filth who actively hate us, people like us, and are completely incapable of changing their minds. None of this is striking you as even slightly ironic? Also lol on using gbs of all things to defend SA's intellectual pretensions.
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Sep 30, 2016 05:50
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Skimmed through that Breitbart article and forgive me if this is off-base but it really just seemed to say that "sure the alt-right has race realists, manosphere weirdos and schrödiger's nazis, but they're so plucky and full of spunk (look at how loving crazy the virtue signalling cucks in the Left is!) They're just building communities that suit them! Posting images of ovens from Auschwitz with the caption "deposit It certainly didn't clear up my suspicions that it's full of reprehensible morons, it actually did the opposite, sorry.  E: sure the alt-right is diverse in that it's made up of many groups with different ideas and it's entirely possible that many of them aren't terrible but I haven't seen that yet. murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 07:03
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That's my general impression too. Bear in mind, though, I think there's a pretty significant distinction between "reprehensible moron" and "literal Neo-Nazi", which appears to be the main reason for disagreement here.
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Sep 30, 2016 07:07
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Some Guy TT posted:That's my general impression too. Bear in mind, though, I think there's a pretty significant distinction between "reprehensible moron" and "literal Neo-Nazi", which appears to be the main reason for disagreement here. While maybe not neo-nazis they seem to have a lot of white nationalism poo poo in common so I don't feel that accusation is too far off the mark either.
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Sep 30, 2016 07:10
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I'm waiting to hear about this left-wing strain of misogyny and sexual harassment that makes the alt-right indistinguishable from Internet Communists or Anyone Without a Girlfriend. The difference is that the alt-right hates women and is overwhelmingly single white guys. This is simply not a dispute. Some Guy TT posted:Did we read the same article? I thought it made them sound like assholes motivated less by actual reasons and more a desire to fling poo poo at people they don't like. Or are you simply assuming that the tone is meant to be positive because they don't write "also, the alt-right is made up of literal nazis" every few paragraphs? Please continue dying on the hill of "Well the alt-right aren't literal Nazis!", truly a lofty bar to cross.
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Sep 30, 2016 08:19
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dont even fink about it posted:The difference is that the alt-right hates women and is overwhelmingly single white guys. This is simply not a dispute. I'm starting to doubt this now. I just looked up the definition of alt-right on wikipedia and for some reason, misogyny isn't listed. Perhaps we're projecting Trump's sexism onto the alt-right? I mean, they could be just generic republican level of sexism, but you seem so sure of their extreme hatred of women maybe you can offer some clarification.
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Sep 30, 2016 11:37
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Some Guy TT posted:That's my general impression too. Bear in mind, though, I think there's a pretty significant distinction between "reprehensible moron" and "literal Neo-Nazi", which appears to be the main reason for disagreement here. They're not literal neo nazis, they just believe that cultures must be strictly separated to be preserved and that mosques don't belong on streets with white people's houses.
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Sep 30, 2016 11:46
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Some Guy TT posted:
To me I think the accusations of racism albeit present within the alt right, really aren't central to the movement, I've read through r/The_Donald for awhile now (curiosity sake) an the racism present is mostly there for shock or insincere, or if it is sincere it is rejected by the community. They also love to up vote the token black trump supporter. I would say they are more motivated by that American ideology of believing in the American dream/try hard capitalism and against the PC subset of the left that the owl guy says is too small to be significant. Trump supporters honestly believe a golden age is on the horizon if trump is elected. Despite low skill labour consistently losing to innovation and trump likely just ignoring this trend. To think trump represents a solution to anything other than boredom is also pretty great. The SA goons closing the case with "they're soooo racist" is an indication of their millennial culture more than something that passes for analysis. Sethex fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 12:24
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Freakazoid_ posted:I'm starting to doubt this now. I just looked up the definition of alt-right on wikipedia and for some reason, misogyny isn't listed. Misogyny is something that gets lobbed as some sort of logical afterthought. Like, you are racist, so you must also hate women! It's natural! In reality plenty of alt-right people are the same sort of people who would be labeled SJWs (gener queer, trans internet activists, etc.), if they hadn't thrown in their lot with the alt-right instead. There should be some sort of internet game like "Tumblr, or alt-right?" steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Sep 30, 2016 |
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Sep 30, 2016 12:58
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Sethex posted:To me I think the accusations of racism albeit present within the alt right, really aren't central to the movement, I've read through r/The_Donald for awhile now (curiosity sake) an the racism present is mostly there for shock or insincere, or if it is sincere it is rejected by the community. They also love to up vote the token black trump supporter. They invariably love that racism makes people upset. How many of them buy into racism unironically, is questionable. The most famous "racist" trope of the alt-right is the Iron Pill, which is mocking white nationalists just as much, if not more than minorities. Then there's Zyklon Ben, 4chan's movement to destroy the supposedly alt-right cartoonist B. Garrison by combining his pictures with A Wyatt Man cut outs. Actually, I guess A Wyatt Man would be a good comparison for alt-right. Guy was a milquetoast liberal who drew racist caricatures on the side to build up his cred among edgy art movements that were in vogue at the time.
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Sep 30, 2016 13:07
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I read 8chan regularly, and no, misogyny is definitely part of their general ideology. The consensus seems to be that women's sexual and economic liberation is a bad thing. It's a bad thing for society because they believe women are inherently inferior and only good for making babies, and it's a bad thing for them because women are no longer forced to be dependent on a monogamous relationship with a man to support themselves, which means less women are forced to pair off with men like themselves. Do not sanitise people who believe in literal fascism.
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Sep 30, 2016 13:15
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Sethex posted:You mean pretty much the campus culture across most NA universities?
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Sep 30, 2016 13:16
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Ocrassus posted:I read 8chan regularly, and no, misogyny is definitely part of their general ideology. Wasn't 8chan established because people were banned from 4chan for posting CP. Why would you read that.
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Sep 30, 2016 13:21
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steinrokkan posted:Wasn't 8chan established because people were banned from 4chan for posting CP. I have an addiction to reading hate. I read the freep thread, stormfront, etc. The only board I am interested in on 8ch is /pol/.
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Sep 30, 2016 13:23
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