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Novum
May 26, 2012

That's how we roll

User0015 posted:

The rogue is a halfling actually. I read about it and heard Commander's strike isn't good because of it costing all your actions essentially. Trip, riposte and precision strike were all recommended, plus whichever strike lets you terrify an opponent.

Riposte is pretty meh, I think commander strike only uses up one swing out of your 'attack' action and could really up the synergy between you and rogueman

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nelson
Apr 12, 2009
College Slice

User0015 posted:

The rogue is a halfling actually. I read about it and heard Commander's strike isn't good because of it costing all your actions essentially. Trip, riposte and precision strike were all recommended, plus whichever strike lets you terrify an opponent.

quote:

When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can forgo one of your attacks and use a bonus action to direct one of your companions to strike.

I suppose it depends on what else you were going to do with that bonus action. But giving up one of your attacks if you have multiple attacks, for a rogue attack, is certainly worth it. Think about getting it after 5th level when your Extra Attack feature kicks in. I guess that would make it 7th level when you get to choose more maneuvers. 7th level is also when the rogue gets his 4th sneak attack die, so not a bad time to do it.

nelson fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Feb 8, 2017

ritorix
Jul 22, 2007

Vancian Roulette
Anyone ever gets arts-and-crafty for a game?

I'm about to run Way of the Wicked in 5e, it's an evil campaign from PF. One of the encounters deals with a "veil of many items". If you pull off a picture of a dagger from the veil, a real dagger appears. So I printed out two copies of the image, one enhanced a bit to see the items better, and set it up like a lottery scratch-off ticket. I intend to just hand it over to the players without explanation, which is exactly what happens in the module.




Final product:


And of course an evil pact for the party to sign. Not my work, just lightened it up so it doesn't look like crap after printing in black+white.

I will probably roll it up tightly and pressure everyone to sign it without reading all the fine print. :devil:

LongDarkNight
Oct 25, 2010

It's like watching the collapse of Western civilization in fast forward.
Oven Wrangler
That's awesome and fills me with so much shame that I couldn't bust out anything like it when I ran Way of the Wicked.

ritorix
Jul 22, 2007

Vancian Roulette
Evil pact after the ol' coffee soak, with edges actually burned. This might be my favorite RPG prop.

The Crotch
Oct 16, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

Novum posted:

Eldritch knight can be a pretty good option for that imo depending on your spell selection. Stuff like fog cloud and shield are intelligence independent spells with lots of utility.
What's the consensus on eldritch knight vs fighter/wizard multiclass, anyway?

lifg
Dec 4, 2000
<this tag left blank>
Muldoon

ritorix posted:

Anyone ever gets arts-and-crafty for a game?

Handouts are great. I draw (badly) all the magic and interesting items my players find on index cards. They can pass them around as they need, until I mark something as cursed.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


So I just suffered death of a much loved character of mine in a rather unsatisfying way. i'd like to lay out what happened here and get some takes on it, whether it was fair/unfair/gm error, just for sake of mind. I can't/won't be attempting to argue with the DM over it, done is done and moving on, but I feel real bad about the way it went down so I'd just like some input.

Simplifying a rather involved plotline into a tl;dr, we're a group of level 4 adventurers (started the quest at 3) tasked with retrieving an item from the territory of a vampire (CR:13). Ideally we wouldn't have to even face the vampire, or that was the idea presented by the quest giver, but we were presented with some advantages to counteract the dangers, including being given ownership of the mansion that the mcguffin was in. The idea being that as a last resort we could at least have a bastion of safety via the whole ownership/invitation vampire thing.

Right off the bat I'm rather skeptical, I don't like the sort of vastly out of our element sense of danger because it feels so precarious, a single roll of the die could mean almost instant death and that rubs me the wrong way. Anyway.

Fast forward a bit, we've been holed up in the house for a few days surviving waves of enemies in an area that is magically night. We're told eventually the night will end but we're encouraged to try and break it ourselves by the threat of running out of rations/eventually being worn down by undead minions (zombies and the like) who have no problems entering our house at all.

We come up with a plan. We've found evidence of a ritual magic location being used to postpone the dawn, my character ( a sneaky rogue) is going to go outside the house, find the ritual site, and destroy/disrupt the ritual right under the vampires nose. If daytime comes maybe the vampire just dies but at the very least we can escape (we already have the mcguffin at this point).

What follows is a series of events in this plan that led to my death that I find very frustrating. There is of course more to it but I don't want to relate the entirety of a multiple hour encounter/planning here.

1. My character is invisible thanks to the party bard and I have a +9 stealth check at level 4. I roll a 16 so I have a 25 while moving and theoretically while standing still the only thing that could give me away are tracks, yet we're on a smooth stone cavern floor, so no tracks. The vampire detects me anyway. The gmrolled a 20 on a standard non-advantaged perception check.

2. I start running, due to being 20 ft away from the vampire and using cunning action I'm putting 60ft between me and the vamp a turn, I spend an action loving up the ritual as I run past. The DM decides that doesn't stop the night and the vampire continues pursuit.

3. The rest of the party is added to the initiative order despite them being 200+ ft away and unable to impact the fight. Due to the way legendary actions work the vampire runs me down through action economy as he's given free actions at the end of my teammates turns when they aren't actually doing anything.

4. the vampire repeatedly knows where I am despite me being invisible and makes multiple attacks on my square, narrowly missing my 16 AC as he's attacking with disadvantage.

5. I make a good deception check to convince him I jumped into a nearby pond and then hustle off down a sidepath instead, the vampire fails his insight check and is fooled so I sneak off further down the path. The Dm rolls a second 20 on a non-advantaged perception check so he decides the vampire knows where I am again and chases me down.

6. A single turn away from safety (I can get into the manor on my next turn) the vampire hits me with a melee and grapples me. The rule at the table is grappling sets your speed to 0 at the beginning of the round and escaping the grapple doesn't actually give you your speed back. So while I have +7 acrobatics and can escape a vampire on an 11, i can't actually run away at that point since my movement is still 0.

7 we roll dice for a few turns but the vampire is still getting 4 actions to my 1 because he's still getting all the legendary actions from my friends who still are completley unable to do anything (we're level 4 remember) and because I have to survive 4 attacks in a row to start a turn ungrappled I eventually die.

I'm really frustrated by this whole turn of events, I don't like the way the DM handled the stealth rolls given I was explicitly standing still and invisible, I don't like the way he continually knew where I was despite me ending my turn around corners or otherwise throwing him off my track. I don't like that the DM put my party on the initiative list and hosed me through legendary actions. I don't like the grapple rules as they prevented me from running away even when I managed to slip away from the enemy. All told I feel cheated to death and it bothers me.

I don't imagine I'm going to get alot of sympathy here but all the same, ugh.

E: and now I'm looking at this horrible giant effort post I made over a fantasy dnd character I was more attached too than average and am questioning myself as a perosn.

EE: 8. the vampire was getting free perception rolls to find me, that he kept passing, instead of having to spend his action searching. This isn't even a 'I disagree with this call' as much as a 'clear breakage of rules'.

Agent355 fucked around with this message at 07:43 on Feb 8, 2017

thefakenews
Oct 20, 2012

Agent355 posted:



I don't imagine I'm going to get alot of sympathy here but all the same, ugh.



Yeah, no, your DM totally hosed you over in a bunch of ways - based on your version.

thefakenews fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Feb 8, 2017

nelson
Apr 12, 2009
College Slice

thefakenews posted:

Yeah, no, you're DM totally hosed you over in a bunch of ways - based on your version.
Concur.

mango sentinel
Jan 5, 2001

by sebmojo

thefakenews posted:

Yeah, no, you're DM totally hosed you over in a bunch of ways - based on your version.
Like, from a "don't be a shithead" perspective he should have just ignored that initial perception roll. Everything from then on was him abusing rules specifically to gently caress you over.

Don't play with that person again.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


I think I laid it out as fairly as I could, to play my own devil's advocate I'll make a few points.

1. This was not the safest thing we could have done, an intentional risk was taken to try and slay the vampire by ending the magical night while he was seiging us. We could've simply wated the 10 days or w/e and taken our chances there. So at the very least I was aware I was accepting some amount of danger.

2. While my stealth is +9 and I was invisible, a vampire has +7 perception, so all else being equal he should detect me 40% of the time (or so, math is hard), which is not that rare. I take more issues with the situations where I was detected (and the lack of actions spent searching because i was invisible) than the fact he spotted me at all. (I'd still say an invisible person with no tracks standing still shouldn't even be subjected to perception rolls at all, vampires have no enhanced sense of smell or anything according to 5e).

3. The grapple rule has been in place since the campaign started and I was aware of it, even if in this instance it guaranteed my doom.

4. The DM did roll extraordinarily well on his free perception checks he shouldn't have gotten. So while I don't like that he even made the checks he wasn't just deciding the vampire knew where i was out of spite. A bad call maybe but I saw the 18-20 rolls myself.

I really can't think of anything else that paints my role in this in a worse light. I feel I handled the risk assessment and course of action after discovery as best as I could possibly handle it. I died one turn away from safety all the same.

E: 5. his logic on adding the party members to the initiative order is that maybe they could have done something and being part of the adventuring party should be added to the list just to give them a chance. Even if ultimately none of them could. This seemed flimsy at the table and it seems flimsy now but thats what he said when I questioned it.

Agent355 fucked around with this message at 08:18 on Feb 8, 2017

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009
Yeah, that sounds like you were dicked over by the DM.

Firstly; "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense." - Unless Vampires in the monster manual have an ability to see invisible creatures as a matter of being undead or he wolf forms and uses his nose, yeah, they shouldn't have been able to use perception to see you. Though he could have summoned a heap of bat swarms which would have been bad news too.

Secondly; Adding your allies and then they're not being able to help is also bullshit, what were their actions each turn? Why didn't they try and help you when you were one turn from safety?

Lastly; Once you'd failed to ruin the ritual, why did the vampire continue to try to murder you? Have you been aggravating him at every turn because it sounds like you were all kinda screwed and this was a hail mary.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


Cassa posted:

Yeah, that sounds like you were dicked over by the DM.

Firstly; "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense." - Unless Vampires in the monster manual have an ability to see invisible creatures as a matter of being undead or he wolf forms and uses his nose, yeah, they shouldn't have been able to use perception to see you. Though he could have summoned a heap of bat swarms which would have been bad news too.

Secondly; Adding your allies and then they're not being able to help is also bullshit, what were their actions each turn? Why didn't they try and help you when you were one turn from safety?

Lastly; Once you'd failed to ruin the ritual, why did the vampire continue to try to murder you? Have you been aggravating him at every turn because it sounds like you were all kinda screwed and this was a hail mary.

No argument on the first one, it's just a bad call IMO.

Second: My allies cast self buffs to protect themselves vs evil and then left the house to try and help but quickly realized they couldn't. They did their best to be fair. They tried to knockback me and/or the vampire with spells when he had me grappled which would've ended the grapple and maybe given me a chance. Efforts were made.

Third: I guess just because it was a vampire and I was warm? It's in character sure but it still feels needlessly punitive to make a 4th level run from a CR13 encounter.

Agent355 fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Feb 8, 2017

Nihilarian
Oct 2, 2013


The vampire 9 levels higher than you getting 4 actions to your 1 is loving ridiculously unfair Jesus Christ. Everything else is questionable but that's just beyond the pale

Slippery42
Nov 10, 2011

User0015 posted:

The rogue is a halfling actually. I read about it and heard Commander's strike isn't good because of it costing all your actions essentially. Trip, riposte and precision strike were all recommended, plus whichever strike lets you terrify an opponent.

Menacing attack is great. Frightened creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls as long as the source of their fear (you) is within sight of them. Downside is that there are quite a few published creatures who immune to the condition, so when they become more prevalent at higher levels, you might want to swap it with goading strike. Goading won't protect you, but it will still protect the party.

Definitely take commander's strike with a rogue in the party, though maybe not until your second set of maneuvers at 7 when sneak attack becomes a bit scarier.

You might actually find a lot of use in maneuvering attack to help get party members out of tight spots. The ranger would almost certainly want that free disengage.


-Your stealth roll should have almost certainly been contested by the vampire's passive perception instead of the DM giving it a roll. Was there any narrative reason the DM gave why the vampire would have been actively searching for hidden creatures (IE: did it actually see an invisibility spell cast on a stealth expert)? I'm guessing no.

-Knowing your position even while invisible was probably correct technically unless you were able to successfully hide again.

-Adding your party to initiative was BS unless they were actively asking to be part of the combat to try and save you when the DM called for initiative rolls.

-The "0 speed after escaping a grapple" thing sounds really wonky. Every table I've been at has played it where you get your speed back when the condition ends, but I can't find any rules that say what happens if an effect reducing your speed ends during your turn. The cynical answer is to make your new character a dedicated grappler and abuse the everloving crap out of this interpretation.

Regardless, your team did basically everything right against those odds and should have gotten away with it to make for cool narrative. Were I behind the screen, I'd have let him attack you a time or two in order to demonstrate how he's not to be messed with, but before he goes for the kill, he spares you to retreat from an imminent sunrise.

Negative Entropy
Nov 30, 2009

sounds like you were fed to the vampire to scare the others into not loving with an overwhelmingly dangerous creature for purposes of plot.

maybe you'll get to become a vamp.

If it is a warning to the others they should have spoken to you beforehand of this was the case.
otherwise they're a dick.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


The party members on the initiative order absolutely tried to help, it's just that they were over 200 ft away, no exaggeration. I was far away from the party and while there were things that happened to clue them into me being in trouble they weren't actually capable of helping. They just didn't have the tools for it. So adding them to the order gave them a bunch of time to say 'well, I can't really do anything' followed by the vamp getting an extra action. So I guess it's a judgement call then? Do you give the party an opportunity to do things even though they can't do anythign and it fucks over the guy fleeing the monster 9 levels higher than him? I'd say no but I'm not the DM of the game.

I doubt I'll be able to get the DM to un-die me retroactively but maybe I can come back in some other way. Normally we wouldn't be able to afford a resurrection or anything but maybe we just get given one as part of the quest reward for deus ex machina apologies.

I really don't think that the DM killed me inentionally as much as he just followed the rules the way he thinks he should have which led to an un-fun, un-fair encounter where numerous mistakes in rule following or at best questionable calls led to my death being all but inevitable. And thats not cool.

Agent355 fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Feb 8, 2017

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009
You should definitely bring it up with your DM, 4th is still relatively new to the game, so it may have been an honest mistake.

And that grapple making your speed 0 until your next turn is straight up crap. Spend your action to break free>Succeed>Immobile next to the person who grappled you, unable to move

Turtlicious
Sep 17, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
The players shouldn't have been part of the initiative order until they were close enough to do poo poo. Instead you pick a number (4 in this case,) and on that round the players roll initiative and join. So you and the vampire trade off for 4 turns until then. That was a seriously hosed up play by the GM, if it was an accident, he really doesn't understand the system, because legendary actions really shouldn't come into play unless the whole party is there,.

siggy2021
Mar 8, 2010

nelson posted:

Eh, on the face of it, it seems like it would break some things to do it mid combat.

Why not shorten the 1 hour period to 5 minutes once per day instead?

Because that sounds really boring and not fun and not the blessing of a major deity.

Sage Genesis
Aug 14, 2014
OG Murderhobo
Re: Agent355

Long story, several posts, couple of my comments here.



First, in 5e being invisible is not the same as being hidden. If you run while invisible but never take a (bonus) action to hide, then everybody around still knows you're there. I guess they hear your footsteps and such. Not sure if that's a good rule, but it is how 5e works. However: the vampire should probably not have made the initial perception check in the first place. If you check the "Hiding" rules on page 177, such checks are only given to any creature who actively searches for your presence. I find it highly unlikely that this vampire guy is sitting the entire (extended) night, going "oh boy oh boy, Agent355 is going to be here any moment now!" Instead he'd really on passive perception, and you clearly beat that with a 25.

The grappling speed reduction houserule is crap. PCs rarely need to grapple, whereas many monsters rely on it. The fact that it killed a PC isn't just bad, it was practically inevitable. Why was this rule even put into place? And if the answer even remotely sounds like "realism", dethrone the DM. Realism is the enemy of game design.

The legendary action thing is plain and simple an abuse of the rules. Legendary actions exist to give a single monster the ability to stand up to an entire party's action economy. If you interpret "after another creature's turn" to also apply to creatures who aren't even in the fight, then you might as well let the vampire take all three of its legendary actions in one go. After all, some creature somewhere in the world surely just took a turn, so hey - that's a legit trigger, right? (Spoiler alert: no, not right.) And if you think that's a weird exaggeration, consider the perspective of the Rogue who can't see/know his party is arriving; because to that Rogue, this is exactly what actually just happened. That weird exaggeration is what we're genuinely talking about now.

About the idea that this wasn't the safest and you could've waited for 10 days:

gently caress
That

Seriously. This is Dungeons and Goddamned Dragons. Is this about bold adventurers who face risks to thwart evil and gain riches? Or is this about timid guys who hide inside a house, hoping the evil will just sort of go away on its own? If you want the scary zombie experience, go play a game like All Flesh Must Be Eaten or something. Don't play D&D and then try to talk it ok by saying, "well it wasn't the safest..." Nothing you do in D&D is the safest. The safest thing to do is staying at home and never picking up the adventuring life. I'm not saying you have to be stupidly reckless about it, but an invisible Rogue sneaking out to end the zombie apocalypse is bold, not stupid.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011
If you don't want a bad play experience stemming from unclear rules and bad house rules, then don't play 5e. Or don't complain about the game falling apart when it inevitably happens.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

by vyelkin

Turtlicious posted:

The players shouldn't have been part of the initiative order until they were close enough to do poo poo. Instead you pick a number (4 in this case,) and on that round the players roll initiative and join. So you and the vampire trade off for 4 turns until then. That was a seriously hosed up play by the GM, if it was an accident, he really doesn't understand the system, because legendary actions really shouldn't come into play unless the whole party is there,.

The rules don't say anything about how to interpret legendary actions by distance, right ? I'm thinking about a situation where half the party flees in terror, say from a dragon, then comes back.

And as for stealth checks, the vampire could definitely have heard someone standing still - from their breathing for instance. Or a door opening or whatever that could give him the roll. I've always felt that playing sneaky characters is a death sentence due to exactly the situation you describe.

Ambi
Dec 30, 2011

Leave it to me

The Crotch posted:

What's the consensus on eldritch knight vs fighter/wizard multiclass, anyway?

I'm also curious on this, and what the general build is for Eldritch Knights? Do you go Str/Dex and Int dual main ability score, or do you ignore Int for the most part and just take spells like Shield that aren't affected by it while being a Fighter? The former seems more difficult, but probably works better with the SCAG cantrips and the spell+attack class feature?

Also re:tanky characters, Paladin/Sorcerer is a lot of fun, and picking the Stone sorcerer origin gets you a neat damage reduction/protect an ally power, no? Or are the other origins better?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Turtlicious posted:

That was a seriously hosed up play by the GM, if it was an accident, he really doesn't understand the system, because legendary actions really shouldn't come into play unless the whole party is there,.

mastershakeman posted:

The rules don't say anything about how to interpret legendary actions by distance, right?

It's one of those things where the game doesn't really do a good job of teaching you how to play/run the game well, or that it doesn't explain the intent of certain design decisions - just that the rules are the rules.

Legendary actions are supposed to give the "boss" additional actions to that it's not moving once for every three/four turns that the PC party does, but if the boss isn't facing multiple PCs, then it arguably doesn't need the extra actions.

Or ... perhaps you could still give it the extra actions as a sort of "display of power", that you really cannot take this thing down by yourself, but that too shouldn't be enforced in the case of a plot-even where you're not supposed to be fighting the boss in the first place, or if the boss is so much higher-level that it's not necessary.

But if the game never tells you anything about this. If there's never a sidebar in the Monster Manual telling you the raison d'etre of Legendary Actions, then the DM just follows along blindly because that's what the book says, and ends up killing a player, and it's not nearly as enjoyable an experience as it could have been.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

Ambi posted:

I'm also curious on this, and what the general build is for Eldritch Knights? Do you go Str/Dex and Int dual main ability score, or do you ignore Int for the most part and just take spells like Shield that aren't affected by it while being a Fighter? The former seems more difficult, but probably works better with the SCAG cantrips and the spell+attack class feature?

Also re:tanky characters, Paladin/Sorcerer is a lot of fun, and picking the Stone sorcerer origin gets you a neat damage reduction/protect an ally power, no? Or are the other origins better?

I've heard there's a guide basically espousing this. To take it a bit further, they recommend going DEX and mostly using a bow, IIRC.

Like, the level 7 EK feature is the only reason to take it over Fighter/Wizard MC, unless you're super sure you want that 19th or 20th level Wizard ability, and you know your campaign will go that high.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

gradenko_2000 posted:

Or ... perhaps you could still give it the extra actions as a sort of "display of power", that you really cannot take this thing down by yourself, but that too shouldn't be enforced in the case of a plot-even where you're not supposed to be fighting the boss in the first place, or if the boss is so much higher-level that it's not necessary.

"Trogdor gloats 1 round."

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib

mastershakeman posted:

I've always felt that playing sneaky characters is a death sentence due to exactly the situation you describe.

Well that's just the thing though, playing stealth characters is always a risk because you could always roll a 2 on something and not beat passives but it shouldn't be a death sentence because the DM shouldn't be trying to kill you. The DMs job is to facilitate the story and to serve as the arbiter of the rules but when the rules as written are boning someone the DM has and should use the discretion to not bone someone. It should have for example been clear that you don't need to give the legendary actions to the vampire in that case. The perception checks should've been passive from the beginning and the active ones should've burned an action.

I love that there was an actual chase because chases and escapes are something we don't see a lot of in D&D and are very hard to make compelling, and it sounds like it was very compelling up until the vampire was given 4 to 1 action economy against a single player.

As for "is there a range given?" On legendary actions, I'd say the range is "can the players interact with the big bad?" If the players aren't in range to attack then the big bad shouldn't get a full action to target on the one guy who is in range. A CR13 is gonna kill a level 4 eventually anyhow if that level 4 tries to fight, zero need to give it four attacks and make it certain.

SettingSun
Aug 10, 2013

I'm curious to know how Agent's DM intended for the adventure to go. It is clearly wrong to just hole up forever, but 4 low level PCs versus a legendary vampire is actual suicide. The logical leap of utilizing a rogue to stealthily disrupt the ritual makes a lot of sense. The vampire finding him anyway and murdering him seems like a punishment for a neat idea. Not only that, but Agent even succeeded in his goal is disrupting the ritual, but nothing happened! To me that's the worst thing of all.

P.d0t
Dec 27, 2007
I released my finger from the trigger, and then it was over...

Paramemetic posted:

Well that's just the thing though, playing stealth characters is always a risk because you could always roll a 2 on something and not beat passives but it shouldn't be a death sentence because the DM shouldn't be trying to kill you. The DMs job is to facilitate the story and to serve as the arbiter of the rules but when the rules as written are boning someone the DM has and should use the discretion to not bone someone.

"The DM's job is to facilitate the story (unless we're doing Collaborative Storytelling Mode) and to serve as arbiter of the rules (unless the rules are poo poo, in which case just make something up.)"

D&D in a nutshell.

mastershakeman
Oct 28, 2008

by vyelkin

gradenko_2000 posted:

It's one of those things where the game doesn't really do a good job of teaching you how to play/run the game well, or that it doesn't explain the intent of certain design decisions - just that the rules are the rules.

Legendary actions are supposed to give the "boss" additional actions to that it's not moving once for every three/four turns that the PC party does, but if the boss isn't facing multiple PCs, then it arguably doesn't need the extra actions.

Or ... perhaps you could still give it the extra actions as a sort of "display of power", that you really cannot take this thing down by yourself, but that too shouldn't be enforced in the case of a plot-even where you're not supposed to be fighting the boss in the first place, or if the boss is so much higher-level that it's not necessary.

But if the game never tells you anything about this. If there's never a sidebar in the Monster Manual telling you the raison d'etre of Legendary Actions, then the DM just follows along blindly because that's what the book says, and ends up killing a player, and it's not nearly as enjoyable an experience as it could have been.

Yeah those actions are a mess. I was thinking of hypotheticals in my head about if a dm selectively gives legendary actions vs not. It can't be on offensive actions , or else the party could all run up and surround the vampire with the vampire only getting one action , and then the next turn dogpile him. But if some people forego an action for whatever reason, and the vampire still goes, you end up in this situation.

200 ft away just doesn't seem that far away is I guess my problem with it. If they'd never come out I wonder if the dm would've still used all the actions. And with 4 actions a round maybe that vampire did actively attempt to search for sounds

mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 8, 2017

Paramemetic
Sep 29, 2003

Area 51. You heard of it, right?





Fallen Rib
And if people are 200 ft away even assuming they dash towards the vampire it's still 3 turns where he gets to beat on Agent four times before they even have a chance to help.

Edit: also as I think about it doesn't attacking use two LA points? I don't have the MM in front of me but he shouldn't be getting "attack" on every action, I thought attacks and bites took two LAs?

Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 8, 2017

Vengarr
Jun 17, 2010

Smashed before noon

mastershakeman posted:

Yeah those actions are a mess. I was thinking of hypotheticals in my head about if a dm selectively gives legendary actions vs not. It can't be on offensive actions , or else the party could all run up and surround the vampire with the vampire only getting one action , and then the next turn dogpile him. But if some people forego an action for whatever reason, and the vampire still goes, you end up in this situation.

Legendary Actions happen at the end of a creatures' turn, not after it takes its' action.

The proper ruling would have kept the rest of the party from taking turns, which meant that the vamp would only have had 1 Legendary Action + his standard turn to play with. That would have let him make an Unarmed strike or Move on his Legendary Action instead of getting to Bite all day everrday.

Novum
May 26, 2012

That's how we roll

The Crotch posted:

What's the consensus on eldritch knight vs fighter/wizard multiclass, anyway?

Personally, I pick similar spells regardless and mostly play at lower levels so I keep playing my wizard and saying "drat, I wish I weren't so flimsy" but never play my fighter and find myself saying "drat I wish I had a good spell DC"

My experience is very biased to low level play, but our group has a lot of outside interests and play biweekly so low level is how the party rocks.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


Me and my DM are talking now about how the sessions last night ended. He's a good friend of mine I've known for several years but is so far refusing to even admit that he made mistakes, just giving me poo poo like 'well I can't promise that every encounter is going to follow the rules perfectly'.

I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt the other day but he's being unapologetic over this and I'm getting pissed off.

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004


:911:
:wookie: :thermidor: :wookie:
:dehumanize:

:pirate::hf::tinfoil:

It's a tough job with a lot of ego attached. Gotta tread carefully when critiquing your DM.

Agent355
Jul 26, 2011


We're on a bit more equal footing since we both DM games and we both play in each other's games and have a history of breaking down sessions and discussing the good/bad of the decision making that occurs in them. I'd say he's a very good DM and I haven't seen such egregious mis-steps before.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!

Agent355 posted:

'well I can't promise that every encounter is going to follow the rules perfectly'.

What.

I know fiat is important for quick judgment calls, but in response to you saying "hey you broke the rules in a way that seriously hosed me over" this is a really weird response.

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
Clearly the solution is to have a CR 20 dragon swoop down out of the sky and eat him the next time you DM.

Fair's fair after all.

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