|
Didn't LayCool dress up Kaval in pink polo shirts with popped collars? NXT was a great, weird show. It was like Vince paid just enough attention to it to gently caress up things that were going to be fun.
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 15:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
MassRafTer posted:According to interviews with people who have been released, the pros poll was a legitimate poll of the wrestlers. That's what is so completely insane about NXT. I guess it makes a weird amount of sense since Vince introduced it as this revolutionary idea in wrestling. In season two the pros poll was worth half of the votes so the fan poll really never mattered unless the pros poll was also legitimate. It's completely insane. You know, I kind of like this idea. I'd love to see a bunch of green kids try out, and then have older guys like HHH/JBL/Shawn/Foley/Edge sit down in a room and talk about them on-camera. Have some veteran guys pick them apart freely, without any fear of reprisal. You'd get such a window into the real personalities of those guys. I've never gotten to see the Round Table stuff from WWE On Demand - did the guys on there seem to keep themselves in check, or did they speak pretty freely?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 15:55
|
|
|
I remember quotes from two wrestlers books that I think are applicable to the situation here. One from Jericho, was that to Vince, it doesn't matter what you did outside the WWE, it doesn't matter what you accomplished or achieved. In his universe, the only thing that matters is what you do there. The second is from Mick Foley. For someone to get pushed in the WWE, Vince has to become a fan of them. Both of them express quite clearly that Vince makes himself open to every wrestler under contract. If he has the free time and you need to talk to him, you can. And Vince is very receptive for people having ideas, since it shows a desire to change things. I bring up these things because Vince didn't hire Bryan and put him on NXT and job him out because "Haha Internet star" and intend to throw him out. Nobody went behind his back to get him a spot and Bryan had to be the super can do kid who eventually won against the evil Dean McMahon with his vendetta against all that is fun and righteousness. He got jobbed out for exactly what Jericho said. Because it doesn't matter what you've done outside the WWE. And it's funny because I think people would prefer that it be malice because malice makes for a better story. Instead it's utter apathy. I know Batista said "It was a squash match but I pushed for it to not be." but consider the rest of that tweet... And I see nowhere were Jericho said that his match was meant to be a squash. The point I'm trying to make is not everything is a malicious attack at everything we hold dear by the evil Vince McMahon. Some things are just apathy or business, and rather than think that Vince would pay good money and television time to someone he wanted to kill because he, the multi-millionaire owner who changed the face of pro wrestling for better or worse, apparently had a grudge against him for being popular outside of his bubble. Despite reports from people who had previously been outside of his bubble that frankly, Vince doesn't give a gently caress. We can instead assume that maybe, just maybe, it's just how it goes. Also, if Vince wants to use a commentator as a mouth piece, why does he always choose the heel ones? the ones the fans aren't supposed to agree with at all? That's not me questioning him using the commentators as a mouth piece, he does. That's actually a legit question as to why he always hijacks the heel, it doesn't make sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:14
|
|
|
Onmi posted:and rather than think that Vince would pay good money and television time to someone he wanted to kill because he, the multi-millionaire owner who changed the face of pro wrestling for better or worse, apparently had a grudge against him for being popular outside of his bubble. The entirety of Invasion would indicate otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:28
|
|
|
Vince is just a person. He's capable of spite, intelligence, hubris, poor decision making, ego stroking and anything else a person is capable of. Sometimes simultaneously and counterdictory. Of course some of his decisions are purely business, some are purely spite too. Some are irrational to all but him. Some are probably irrational to him too. He isn't a logical business robot. He's a lucky carnie with a boner for muscles. Hes a good business man with some major blind spots.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:35
|
|
|
FishBulb posted:Vince is just a person. He's capable of spite, intelligence, hubris, poor decision making, ego stroking and anything else a person is capable of. Sometimes simultaneously and counterdictory. Of course some of his decisions are purely business, some are purely spite too. Some are irrational to all but him. Some are probably irrational to him too. This extended Vincechat makes me think that an entire team of scientists should really just be following him around all day, with clipboards, collecting precious Vince data. And when he dies, science can explore his body, and learn so much.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:37
|
|
|
Red posted:And when he dies, science can explore his body, and learn so much. It's just full of leaves. Not much use unless they're botanists.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:43
|
|
|
He's interesting a as an observer because he's probably curated the longest piece of "artwork" in the media that I can think of, essentially 30+ years of US pro wrestling is the product of 1 man (to the extent that any collaborative effort can be attributed to 1 creative, auteur theory death of the author blah blah). Nothing else can really compare to that body of work, but ultimately he's just a person, his experiences have shaped him into who he is, his failures and successes have reinforced his views and he's rationalized what he wants to do away with away. Just like everybody else. He's just magnified because he's been on the stage so long. Nobody else would make the WWE exactly the same as he did, but after being on charge as long as he has anyone would seem as fascinating and quirky and insane.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:46
|
|
|
FishBulb posted:Vince is just a person. He's capable of spite, intelligence, hubris, poor decision making, ego stroking and anything else a person is capable of. Sometimes simultaneously and counterdictory. Of course some of his decisions are purely business, some are purely spite too. Some are irrational to all but him. Some are probably irrational to him too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:47
|
|
|
I do wonder, would the WWE be better or worse if they followed logical booking, didn't cut guys off at the knees once they got popular, actually gave the fans what they wanted, and didn't allow the bookers to also wrestle? It would be a completely different company that I can't really equate to any other promotion in the world and I don't know how it would work with the way audiences have been conditioned over the last 15 or so years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 16:48
|
|
|
I recently watched the Spectacular Legacy of the AWA DVD and I have some questions about the death of the AWA and the rise of the WWF. 1. Is it fair to say that while Greg Gagne wasn't champion material, he was a great draw as part of the High Flyers? 2. To hear Vince and other WWF people tell it, Vince won wrestling because he simply treated it as a business, and didn't care about being initiated into the carny brotherhood of wrestling promoters, following the "rules," and politicking his way from there. Is that true, or did he ever do arguably unethical stuff to sabotage other promotions? I remember WCW doing petty poo poo during the Attitude Era, but not much from the other side besides letting Jim Cornette rant about WCW veterans. 3. Why is Nick Bockwinkel so awesome? 4. Why did they bring Stan Hansen from Japan and why was he even interested? 5. How bad did Gagne treat his talent, really? They didn't touch on that, except for Hogan talking about Verne demanding a percentage of his merchandise and Japan money, and someone else saying that the AWA paid well but that it was very small percentage-wise. Bigass Moth posted:I do wonder, would the WWE be better or worse if they followed logical booking, didn't cut guys off at the knees once they got popular, actually gave the fans what they wanted, and didn't allow the bookers to also wrestle? It would be a completely different company that I can't really equate to any other promotion in the world and I don't know how it would work with the way audiences have been conditioned over the last 15 or so years. Ideally, it would be an even bigger and more successful company, and it would be more like the UFC: its existence would help indie wrestling promotions to thrive, and the barrier between indie wrestling and the WWE would be much more permeable for outstanding talent. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:06
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:2. To hear Vince and other WWF people tell it, Vince won wrestling because he simply treated it as a business, and didn't care about being initiated into the carny brotherhood of wrestling promoters, following the "rules," and politicking his way from there. Is that true, or did he ever do arguably unethical stuff to sabotage other promotions? I remember WCW doing petty poo poo during the Attitude Era, but not much from the other side besides letting Jim Cornette rant about WCW veterans. He basically went around and signed all the top talents to exclusive deals. If you mean unethical in a general sense than yes. Wrestlers don't have a union or health care and all the other common bullshit practices. Otherwise it's mostly the talent thing. And Black Saturday. But if you want you can chalk that up to Vince simply playing the business man. If I remember correctly in Brets book he says that Vince laid out what he was going to do very plainly to the NWA. So at the very least at least he never pretended he wasn't going to gouge them for all they were worth. Oh wait. Telling any PPV provider that if they ran Starrcade they couldn't run Wrestlemania. Again, it all depends on how much of that you chalk up to "Business" but it was pretty blatantly sabotaging WCW.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:34
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:1. Is it fair to say that while Greg Gagne wasn't champion material, he was a great draw as part of the High Flyers? I've read a lot of different opinions, and most gripe about Greg getting the nepotistic treatment, which is a fair criticism, but that's hardly new to wrestling. So from what I've seen from tapes and whatnot, Greg is a perfectly capable worker, and is really, really good in that 'face in distress who sells like death' role. He had some neat feuds, and worked well alongside Hennig and Hall. My problem with Greg was when he stood next to Hennig and Hall. Hennig came from a wrestling family, but the guy had "it", and you knew he was a star. Hall was a huge guy who exuded charisma, and he was a great power/brawler type in AWA. You could tell he was meant for great things. Not to go all Vince here, but Greg Gagne was a skinny nerd with a headband and lovely camouflage pants - and he was put on the same level with the guys who were clearly meant to be stars. From the promos I've seen, he was probably average at best. The fans still got behind him, but I get the feeling Verne did everything he could to tell fans "Greg is a big deal". But, to be fair, my entire knowledge of AWA is based off of a bunch of 'Monsters of the Mat, hosted by Sgt. Slaughter' and AWA supershow tapes. AWA had some really good talent, but even watching 10-15 year old tapes, I could tell the "stars" were old guys and Greg. Edit: Er, to answer your question - your statement is not false. I think he was just fine in tag teams and good midcard angles. He was much better when treated as an underdog. I just can't buy him as an equal to whomever the AWA champion was. Looking back, the continued pushing of Larry Z is probably more annoying to me than Greg, though. I don't get Larry as a big deal at all. quote:2. To hear Vince and other WWF people tell it, Vince won wrestling because he simply treated it as a business, and didn't care about being initiated into the carny brotherhood of wrestling promoters, following the "rules," and politicking his way from there. Is that true, or did he ever do arguably unethical stuff to sabotage other promotions? I remember WCW doing petty poo poo during the Attitude Era, but not much from the other side besides letting Jim Cornette rant about WCW veterans. To simplify, Vince won because he went national, and he knew the business could make a lot more money through TV/PPV and merchandising. The territories died because they wanted to keep the 'Good Ole Boys' club intact. quote:3. Why is Nick Bockwinkel so awesome? The man was ahead of his time. Even looking back, I can't fault Verne for putting Nick on TV. quote:4. Why did they bring Stan Hansen from Japan and why was he even interested? I'd imagine that, while he loved the style in Japan, he probably liked the chance to come home, and probably respected Verne. I really, really dig his stuff with Rick Martel - I'd like to think Hansen saw something he liked in Martel. Red fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:52
|
|
|
Onmi posted:He got jobbed out for exactly what Jericho said. Because it doesn't matter what you've done outside the WWE. And it's funny because I think people would prefer that it be malice because malice makes for a better story. Instead it's utter apathy. I know Batista said "It was a squash match but I pushed for it to not be." but consider the rest of that tweet... And I see nowhere were Jericho said that his match was meant to be a squash. I would buy all of this if Daniel Bryan didn't go his entire run on NXT without a win. You have to specifically go out of your way to make someone lose that consistently. WWE thrives on even-steven booking. Like, pretty much everyone else on that season besides Tarver had a dead even record. That's what I would expect to happen, if you're a guy Vince doesn't care about : Wade Barrett 8-5 Winner David Otunga 6-5 Justin Gabriel 7-4 Heath Slater 5-6 Darren Young 7-4 Skip Sheffield 2-5 Daniel Bryan 0-10 Michael Tarver 1-7 I'm not saying Vince wanted to squash Daniel... but you have to plan it out if you want someone to lose that consistently. Apathy would lead to a record like Slater's.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:52
|
|
|
Red posted:I've read a lot of different opinions, and most gripe about Greg getting the nepotistic treatment, which is a fair criticism, but that's hardly new to wrestling. So from what I've seen from tapes and whatnot, Greg is a perfectly capable worker, and is really, really good in that 'face in distress who sells like death' role. He had some neat feuds, and worked well alongside Hennig and Hall. My problem with Greg was when he stood next to Hennig and Hall. Hennig came from a wrestling family, but the guy had "it", and you knew he was a star. Hall was a huge guy who exuded charisma, and he was a great power/brawler type in AWA. You could tell he was meant for great things. Not to go all Vince here, but Greg Gagne was a skinny nerd with a headband and lovely camouflage pants - and he was put on the same level with the guys who were clearly meant to be stars. From the promos I've seen, he was probably average at best. The fans still got behind him, but I get the feeling Verne did everything he could to tell fans "Greg is a big deal". When MassRanter showed a bunch of Nick Bockwinkel stuff, it really exposed Larry as a mediocre talker (and Bockwinkel as a guy who really understood how to work face without changing his character too much).
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:54
|
|
|
El Gallinero Gros posted:When MassRanter showed a bunch of Nick Bockwinkel stuff, it really exposed Larry as a mediocre talker (and Bockwinkel as a guy who really understood how to work face without changing his character too much). Larry exposed himself as a mediocre talker every week on Nitro.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:58
|
|
|
Red posted:Larry exposed himself as a mediocre talker every week on Nitro. In fairness, being a good promo does not mean being a good announcer. See Arn Anderson as a colour guy for that one episode of RAW main evented by Booker T vs Buff Bagwell. Or Randy Savage, he sucked as an announcer. Or Jerry Lawler. That said, Larry really sucked as an announcer, and his weird misogyny stood out on a loving wrestling show.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 18:00
|
|
|
El Gallinero Gros posted:In fairness, being a good promo does not mean being a good announcer. See Arn Anderson as a colour guy for that one episode of RAW main evented by Booker T vs Buff Bagwell. Or Randy Savage, he sucked as an announcer. Oh, you're absolutely right. Larry just happened to really suck at both. "That stop sign must weigh thirty pounds!"
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 18:04
|
|
|
Red posted:I've never gotten to see the Round Table stuff from WWE On Demand - did the guys on there seem to keep themselves in check, or did they speak pretty freely? If you can, try and track down some of the episodes. Everyone speaks pretty freely, all things considered. I don't remember anything too harsh in regards to like, bashing Vince or something, but it's just a show of vets swapping road stories. Be prepared for infinite Michael Hayes stories and butt-ins though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 18:06
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:I would buy all of this if Daniel Bryan didn't go his entire run on NXT without a win. You have to specifically go out of your way to make someone lose that consistently. WWE thrives on even-steven booking. NXT also bled into the main roster shows at the time. They made Bryan look awesome whenever he showed up on the main shows, and he got some decent victories despite his NXT record. Then again, Heath Slater also pinned WHC Chris Jericho around the same time, so I guess what I'm saying is that nothing matters ever in terms of stats in WWE.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 18:52
|
|
|
Savage was great as an announcer.  "They're hanging from the rafters at Wrestlemania! ...this coliseum doesn't have rafters. But it has columns, and people are hanging from them."
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:24
|
|
|
Red posted:Not to go all Vince here, but Greg Gagne was a skinny nerd with a headband and lovely camouflage pants - and he was put on the same level with the guys who were clearly meant to be stars. From the promos I've seen, he was probably average at best. The fans still got behind him, but I get the feeling Verne did everything he could to tell fans "Greg is a big deal". quote:Looking back, the continued pushing of Larry Z is probably more annoying to me than Greg, though. I don't get Larry as a big deal at all. The Senator Giroux posted:Be prepared for infinite Michael Hayes stories and butt-ins though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:26
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:He's Verne's son-in-law. Yeah, that explains why Verne pushed him, but he was also pushed in the NWA and WCW, so other people certainly thought he was a huge talent. He also had his big stuff in the WWF before that. I don't see the appeal in the guy. That's nothing against the era, though, as it's pretty clear why other big names of the era were over. I've never looked up his stuff with Bruno, so maybe that was really amazing stuff, but Larryland isn't a place I'm interested in visiting. I do have the theory that anybody who'd turned on Bruno like he did would've had just as much heel heat. But - before my time.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:36
|
|
|
Red posted:Yeah, that explains why Verne pushed him, but he was also pushed in the NWA and WCW, so other people certainly thought he was a huge talent. He also had his big stuff in the WWF before that. I don't see the appeal in the guy. That's nothing against the era, though, as it's pretty clear why other big names of the era were over. The Larry/Bruno feud was legitimately great and drew incredible amounts of money.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:42
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:The Larry/Bruno feud was legitimately great and drew incredible amounts of money. Oh, sure, I've just never watched the matches or anything. If someone else had been mentored by Bruno, and later turned on him, would the feud have been more, or less, of a big deal? Not having seen any of it, I just wonder if the thing was big because Bruno was that popular, and it would've been a major draw regardless.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:46
|
|
|
I've seen a decent amount of people comparing Bo Dallas to Kurt Angle in terms of being a babyface who everyone hates. Obviously, Angle has the superior wrestling skills, but who is better in terms of mic... skills? Who was more entertaining on the mic, I guess? I wasn't watching a ton of wrestling when Angle was in that phase, but I just have a hard time imagining he did anything that could top Dallas' "sports entertained in CamBOdia" stuff, which was loving magic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:56
|
|
|
Nick_326 posted:I've seen a decent amount of people comparing Bo Dallas to Kurt Angle in terms of being a babyface who everyone hates. Obviously, Angle has the superior wrestling skills, but who is better in terms of mic... skills? Who was more entertaining on the mic, I guess? I wasn't watching a ton of wrestling when Angle was in that phase, but I just have a hard time imagining he did anything that could top Dallas' "sports entertained in CamBOdia" stuff, which was loving magic. Kurt Angle was/is incredible on the mic, Bo isn't even in his league at this point. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 19:58
|
|
|
I was going to ask, has Angle's reputation really fallen so far during his TNA run that now he's less than Bo Dallas? Angle was regarded as one of the best in wrestling, in and out of the ring, during his WWE heyday.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:00
|
|
|
Bo Dallas is terrible at cutting promos. He has negative charisma. His lines are funny because they work with his character of "Bad Wrestler Who Was Shoved Down The Crowd's Throat" but that dude isn't in the same universe as Kurt Angle. Kurt is even better at being an awakward dork heel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GIXF-CGftc oatgan fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:03
|
|
|
Who thought it was a good idea to have Bob Orton, who has Hep C, bleed all over The Undertaker in a match?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:10
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:Who thought it was a good idea to have Bob Orton, who has Hep C, bleed all over The Undertaker in a match? Johnny Ace, I think.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:16
|
|
|
Red posted:Oh, sure, I've just never watched the matches or anything. If someone else had been mentored by Bruno, and later turned on him, would the feud have been more, or less, of a big deal? Not having seen any of it, I just wonder if the thing was big because Bruno was that popular, and it would've been a major draw regardless. Larry had a knack for playing the ungrateful young piece of poo poo. It was huge because of Bruno, but Larry did a great job too. He does a good job in Bockwinkel's AWA face turn too. Check out the Winnipeg version of the turn which is on youtube, it also has some great Mad Dog Vachon promos.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:21
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:Larry had a knack for playing the ungrateful young piece of poo poo. It was huge because of Bruno, but Larry did a great job too. He does a good job in Bockwinkel's AWA face turn too. Check out the Winnipeg version of the turn which is on youtube, it also has some great Mad Dog Vachon promos. Huh - I'll check some of that out. I wonder if any of Bruno's thing with Larry is on the recent 'best of MSG' release? (I don't know of any other recent WWE compilations that include Bruno/pre-Vince stuff, unless they have one planned just for Bruno.) Red fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:34
|
|
|
I wish there was a list of all the things Hayes had either claimed or slyly implied to have invented/popularized on Legends Roundtable. I know it includes theme music, tag wrestling, the tag rope, The Undertaker, cheating, and more.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:51
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:I wish there was a list of all the things Hayes had either claimed or slyly implied to have invented/popularized on Legends Roundtable. I know it includes theme music, tag wrestling, the tag rope, The Undertaker, cheating, and more. It's fun that Michael Hayes and Mike Graham are this era's DDP, Nova and Raven, except they came from the era before those wrestlers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 21:22
|
|
|
projecthalaxy posted:I wish there was a list of all the things Hayes had either claimed or slyly implied to have invented/popularized on Legends Roundtable. I know it includes theme music, tag wrestling, the tag rope, The Undertaker, cheating, and more. While not something he claimed to have done himself, he did say that Russo invented the Attitude Era in one of the roundtables, which garnered a  .
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 21:32
|
|
|
MassRafTer posted:It's fun that Michael Hayes and Mike Graham are this era's DDP, Nova and Raven, except they came from the era before those wrestlers. At least in Raven's case, third parties confirm that he invented most of the stuff he's taken credit for over the years.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Red posted:Yeah, that explains why Verne pushed him, but he was also pushed in the NWA and WCW, so other people certainly thought he was a huge talent. He also had his big stuff in the WWF before that. I don't see the appeal in the guy. That's nothing against the era, though, as it's pretty clear why other big names of the era were over.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:29
|
|
|
While watching 24/7 on HBO, during the intro I saw a clip or two of DDP and Hall doing yoga from what looked like an HBO documentary. Is one out for that?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 20:20 |
|
|
Hockles posted:While watching 24/7 on HBO, during the intro I saw a clip or two of DDP and Hall doing yoga from what looked like an HBO documentary. Is one out for that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBM8D92yA8
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:48
|
|
