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busb posted:Bowmore made up the image and thought it was a masterstroke of obfuscation and didn't realise he'd inadvertantly given away exactly who was scum. I loved that nobody seemed to realize that the people whose abilities didn't match what they'd told their empires were the ones who turned out to be. Also, Jake randomly being included among two other full empires.  Sorry I had to drop out, work was killing me at the time. My first replace-out 
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Jul 23, 2014 03:59
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Poque posted:I loved that nobody seemed to realize that the people whose abilities didn't match what they'd told their empires were the ones who turned out to be. Also, Jake randomly being included among two other full empires.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:03
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Scum's powers: Holy Word: The Scum team can submit a falsified order for a daily statistic report once per game Blessed are the moneylenders: One member of the scumteam can claim moneylender status which persists until another moneylender is nominated or death. for every 1$ given to a nation by a night phase, the moneylender gains 2$ in the following night phase. On the other hand: one nation may switch the protector votes of two nations from its own empire (ie nominated France and England, votes for england go to france and vice versa. Basically if the scum know who is going to be voted protector they can force it to be someone different). This does not take the place of a night action. Brain Drain: As a night action, may permanently reduce any nation’s stats by -2 to one stat, or -1 to each IME The idea here being that one of the scums would try and get themselves voted diplomat then combine it with Moneylender to feed gold to scums to kill off people etc. Instead all the scums wanted to get voted protector or something so yeah, they were under suspicion every time the prot switch occured :| Also the slow burn of the 3P baltics made me send out a PM to each of them asking if they'd actually read their win condition, i was panicking they'd all just leave each other alone when i believed it was obvious they should have been figuring out how to kill each other off from an early time. I think the time investment to play a game like this is just too large all in all. empire doc, scum doc, diplomat doc. ugh. Gotta be simplified somewhat i believe.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:11
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I would like to join in the Meinberg  ing. I was just glad to have dodged the lynch for a Day after entering the game with that much suspicion on me.busb posted:If Rarity killed 8bux instead of Tom then scum would have had a full victory too - as medifed wouldn't have been able to reach the end tech level. The fact that we could have won at that point after everyone but Rarity got caught so easily as Scum is a little  .
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Jul 23, 2014 04:33
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I do think the game could function just fine without scum and just straight up empire vs empire. The issue I had when we lost was that people weren't really consistent on whether they were going for wincon or town victory. Legion could have taken out all but confirmed scum bowmore but instead killed the two people who were most likely to be town. If you're going to screw us over at least do it in a townie way. Generally some people wanted to play mafia and some people wanted to play Civ and it caused conflict.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:34
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I had this drat thing locked down Rarity why would you kill me!?
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Jul 23, 2014 04:34
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omg, busb! You totally ruined the fact that Java was gonna ultimate betray lynch 50!! oops, I mean... !!! Yay !!! The game is over. Eight Dollars posted:##BLAST OFF TO SPAAAAAACE :tears: Juanito posted:Javan also had the most survivors, which was pretty cool. Only had to lose YPM to help another empire. busb posted:If Rarity killed 8bux instead of Tom then scum would have had a full victory too - as medifed wouldn't have been able to reach the end tech level. busb posted:Thus, with 3/5 empires achieving full wins, The Apostolic Order (scum) I had a lot of fun busb, sorry if I gave you grief.
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Jul 23, 2014 04:45
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has failed to achieve its full or partial win conditions
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Can we agree I was the true hero?
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Jul 23, 2014 04:46
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Your Personal Muse posted:Can we agree I was the true hero? lol, another JAVADOC! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UqZCHwmuQ4MYrR2Hp8hEKI3d6o2Dgh1-UoDjJMOiX04/edit#gid=0 Asiina posted:I had a lot of fun but I want to say a big gently caress you to 50, Crazy, and Viva for screwing Africa for absolutely no reason. wrt, I am legitimately sorry for Africa's loss and my role in it. There really was a miscommunication and I thought you were farther from your wincon than you were I guess. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba9vuJRBS7Q
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Jul 23, 2014 05:01
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Tom Tucker posted:I had this drat thing locked down Rarity why would you kill me!? lol if you think 50 wasn't gonna take you out.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:10
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scum had to prevent 3/5 empire full win cons for a full win, or 3/5 partial win cons for part victory. Yes rarity had enough gold to kill 8bux if she wanted to. She had a crazy amount of $ to use on M, whereas 8bux had to use a bunch on tech if he had to have a chance to get his win.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:13
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Another fantastic Civ game, thanks busb. My original plan, assuming the rest of the baltics were town, was to simply to survive, with Ixt being my right hand man protector and going for a partial victory. Ended up with the same result, but different means. I regret not opening a private channel of communication with Ixt and dominating the rest of the baltics this way. I also feel dumb for falling asleep and not posting my case on rarity. Dunno how the game would've gone any different if I was awake to push that.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:22
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busb posted:scum had to prevent 3/5 empire full win cons for a full win, or 3/5 partial win cons for part victory. huh, that wasn't really that hard, I assumed it was control the vote. They totally coulda teamed up with legion day 1.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:23
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tearshed posted:I also feel dumb for falling asleep and not posting my case on rarity. Dunno how the game would've gone any different if I was awake to push that. qpq can run a history simulation of this game where that happens.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:25
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VivaNova posted:You went down with the grace and dignity of one of your nation's airplanes. All this time and I didn't even know that there was the "we don't trust YPM" doc 
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Jul 23, 2014 05:31
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I am sorry my life got pretty busy lately and the game started the same time I went on vacation for a bit; internet access and time was pretty limited and it was hard to come back after that. Sorry busb and diqnol! (but it seemed to run fine without my help)Asiina posted:I do think the game could function just fine without scum and just straight up empire vs empire. I am not sure it can or would be the same game. The motivation with day lynches changes completely in that case, and absolute trust in each empire changes the dynamic as well. I think it would need a radical reworking for that.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:32
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Juanito posted:I just made the counterfeit money as needed. Still laughing that JakeP chose to steal $ from the counterfeiter. Your Personal Muse posted:All this time and I didn't even know that there was the "we don't trust YPM" doc spoiler: in the end we decide to trust you! Honestly, the main reason I didn't trust you for a while was that I thought your ability was too good to be true!
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Jul 23, 2014 05:35
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Ixtlilton posted:lol if you think 50 wasn't gonna take you out. I think I had enough M and pop to outlast him.
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Jul 23, 2014 05:48
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Your Personal Muse posted:All this time and I didn't even know that there was the "we don't trust YPM" doc
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Jul 23, 2014 05:58
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gently caress whoever killed me. Also, Rarity. I made the original Medifed Pie Chart. I'm glad to see it live on past my death!
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Jul 23, 2014 06:20
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Game pissed me off, but it wasn't your fault busb, you are good stuff.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:31
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VivaNova posted:huh, that wasn't really that hard, I assumed it was control the vote. They totally coulda teamed up with legion day 1. Yeah, if ernie had come out when i said "looks like we can't win with scum." I definitely would have done this. Also sorry to AU, originally the rationale for killing you was that either you or medifed had to have at least 1 more scum in it. When viva told me that you guys were able to confirm otherwise, I decided to go forward with the plan anyway, because I was positive that the next 2 nights we would hit scum. I also knew from FV that scum were determined to invade you once per night to make you a threat to my empire during world peace. For everyone else keeping you wasn't a big deal, but at the moment we pulled so far ahead of town, you became easily my biggest threat to winning. I was scared of a world peace scramble leaving me in the dust so I made the move accordingly.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:45
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You could have talked to us. You could have hit the guy who was going to be lynched before we changed to Jake. You could have just killed one of us. Instead you made a deal with us where we didn't take anything from you that you weren't willing to give then just decided lol gently caress it and ruined all of our chances to win for no reason.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:50
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Also, big ups to viva and the rest of Java, viva was hands down the town and legion MVP.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:50
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Asiina posted:You could have talked to us. It wasn't no reason, I saw it as a necessary evil. That being said, it was definitely a dick move, and I feel bad about it. I would have done things differently if I thought talking to you guys about it wouldn't sketch you out and mess us up.
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Jul 23, 2014 06:52
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busb posted:If Rarity killed 8bux instead of Tom then scum would have had a full victory too - as medifed wouldn't have been able to reach the end tech level. I figured that even if Tom was 3P he'd still spam pop for a Baltic win for shits and giggles. quote:A Civ 3 if it happens will probably not have a scumteam or a lynchphase, just be 100% strategy game and conflicting empire wincons. I'm completely burned out after this though so don't expect it soon, hell someone else can run it. I think this is for the best. As much fun as I had playing scum in this game, I really don't think they're necessary.
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Jul 23, 2014 07:41
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Oh and you can totally post the empire doc 8bux
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Jul 23, 2014 07:42
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50 pounds of bread posted:It wasn't no reason, I saw it as a necessary evil. That being said, it was definitely a dick move, and I feel bad about it. I would have done things differently if I thought talking to you guys about it wouldn't sketch you out and mess us up. After that first night where I was being completely truthful and you were lying through your teeth?
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Jul 23, 2014 08:02
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Pretty much. My win con wasn't one that really encouraged friendly play.
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Jul 23, 2014 09:09
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Congrats 50, glad you got a win in the end. busb, thank you for running this game. I realise it was probably a nightmare of stats and spreadsheets and calculating actions. So if you do run Civ3, hit me up because I live for that poo poo and will gladly do it for you. I know I've already given you some of this feedback via the scum doc
For the curious here is the scum doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EgvJZXGL6B_N8wBvCWjki-OT-19EdrX6mK53p2-8Ink/edit#gid=306372937 The bowmore picture thing was him alone. None of us knew about it until after he did it and his intention was to try and make Byers look like scum, but clearly it backfired completely. Rarity for scum MVP. Not only did she survive the longest, but she was really the only person on the scum team that gave a poo poo. gently caress you to bowmore, Meinberg and Jake who all, for various reasons, basically didn't contribute much. The scum required so much coordination between us and information from the empires to really be effective that it was hard to try and put anything together when only 2 of the 5 players were doing anything. I would have killed for someone like Viva or QPQ to be on the team with us instead. Also, big gently caress you to Capps for vigging my teammate. I was in awe of your deviousness in actually selling the vig. I would never have thought of something as awesome as that. Of course, you pissed 50 and I off, so you had to go, but really deep down I thought you were playing it awesome. I enjoyed the Civ side of the game much more than the mafia side and I would still like to see another Civ game, even though I realise you worked really hard on this busb and I've been pretty negative about it (sorry). I think it has a lot of potential though, and I did enjoy most of the small time I was playing for
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Jul 23, 2014 10:32
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being scum sucked and wasn't fun. too many ways to get caught. I wanted to be a good guy
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Jul 23, 2014 14:29
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Sorry I replaced out. Not too sorry though, I think I was expecting actual mafia more than a mafia-like that just had too much for me to handle at that point. Glad Fiddy pulled it out, I thought our wincon was silly-hard.
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Jul 23, 2014 16:28
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fiery_valkyrie posted:Also, big gently caress you to Capps for vigging my teammate. I was in awe of your deviousness in actually selling the vig. I would never have thought of something as awesome as that. Of course, you pissed 50 and I off, so you had to go, but really deep down I thought you were playing it awesome. I figured I might be dooming myself but I just thought,"This would be too fun not to do."
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Jul 23, 2014 16:36
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fiery_valkyrie posted:feedback Gotta say, I felt quite sorry for the apostolic order throughout. Just being scum in a game with so many night actions is challenging, plus they made some poor decisions early and got a little unlucky with their team. Finding out scum's wincon was a revelation, though, because, imo, scum didn't necessarily need to focus so much on hiding/lasting as just doing maximum damage before they went down, including spreading dissent. Even during world peace, Juanito didn't wanna help medi and legion. If Java hadn't helped them scum would have won! I'm pretty mystified they didn't realize that having a diplomat and making friends with legion were their ticket to victory. Looks like this game was better balanced than the last one - I really think all empires/scum/baltic had the chance to win. Really great set-up overall, minus a few things like the $4 vig being way too cheap. The problems with the game lied more in execution, esp. the baltic slip-up. It's a shame the co-mods disappeared. Agree money was a little annoying - mostly busb not being around to do transfers in a timely fashion. Plus a bunch of Java's abilities were tied to $ transfers that had to happen in a certain direction in a certain timeframe which made for some clunky maneuvering and an inability to use our powers efficiently. wrt people saying the game would be better w/o scum, I'm on the fence. It could just turn into a team version of Diplomacy, which doesn't sound appealing to me, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. I would also volunteer to be a co-mod if fv/someone wants to run a similar game in the future. I'm organized and have decent availability.
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Jul 24, 2014 16:29
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Glad my empire had better people than me. The paranoia consumed me even into world peace and I was really worried about targeting our own empire, and then having things go wrong and then oops, Javan didn't have enough I. Glad things worked out. Thanks to Viva, Quo and YPM. 
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Jul 24, 2014 16:33
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JakeP posted:being scum sucked and wasn't fun. too many ways to get caught. I wanted to be a good guy If it's any consolation, this is my favorite exchange of the game: Hal Incandenza posted:don't want to lynch a guy at the opera JakeP posted:In his defense this is like the Golden Rule of mafia, and you can't fault him for nor breaking it. Juanito posted:Glad my empire had better people than me. The paranoia consumed me even into world peace and I was really worried about targeting our own empire, and then having things go wrong and then oops, Javan didn't have enough I. Glad things worked out. Thanks to Viva, Quo and YPM. Also, some of that paranoia probably came from the fact that busb told us and legion that Crazy was NOT modkilled... which is weird, cause apparently he was??
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Jul 24, 2014 16:39
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VivaNova posted:You didn't act like a good guy though! If you had been more chill, like rarity apparently, we wouldn't have been trying so drat hard to catch you! I'm really impressed I managed to survive 2 days longer than I should have. If I could play again I would a) kill Viva instead of Tom and b) try to ask 8bux to kill 50 for me on the final night so we could both win.
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Jul 24, 2014 16:44
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Rarity posted:I'm really impressed I managed to survive 2 days longer than I should have. If I could play again I would a) kill Viva instead of Tom and b) try to ask 8bux to kill 50 for me on the final night so we could both win. Oh man. That's devious. I don't know if 8 could have killed him tho, with teching. If you gave him all your $, I guess. At the least he could have built a ton of M & E and sabotaged 50's M... Would you have helped rarity, 8? ps. I'm sorry you thought I was smug, I was just having fun!
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Jul 24, 2014 16:53
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VivaNova posted:Oh man. That's devious. I don't know if 8 could have killed him tho, with teching. If you gave him all your $, I guess. At the least he could have built a ton of M & E and sabotaged 50's M... I wouldn't have given him $. Without a Java diplo to feed him cash he wouldn't have hit top tech anyway. quote:ps. I'm sorry you thought I was smug, I was just having fun! I know you thought I was scum (and you were right) but that doesn't mean it's cool to laugh in my face instead of engaging with me.
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Jul 24, 2014 17:02
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Diplomacy report, fmpov Original "alliance" was medi/legion/java, based mostly on us being the first people in the diplodoc and capps lying about some stuff. 50 told me legion's wincon 15 mins before the D1 hammer and I freaked out and thought they were totally anti-town, etc, so I voted Taste and told Java what was up and pretty much decided we weren't gonna work with them. I was secretly happy when Amni was vigged, but I argued against it. I just happened to be online at like 4am when FV claimed to 50 and he told me everything. When she flipped scum I knew 50 was like a billion times more trustworthy than capps. Then capps stole that 2T, and my goal became to kill capps. My happiest moment was convincing 50 to do so. I am a bad person sometimes  So I was thinking AU/Java/Legion for the win, but then 8 was a great diplomat and just kept repeating that he and rarity were 100% empire, they're not gonna mess, they don't want to mess, they don't need to mess, they're just gonna quietly tech up in the corner, blah blah blah, their partial was very easy and the full wasn't out of reach. At the same time, Sandwolf had long been saying things that did not instill confidence, like my empire hates me, our wincon is really difficult, I can't be totally open to you, ect. That night he was generally pessimistic and said something like 'I don't think there's any way we can even get our partial'. So that's what sealed the deal for me to choose to go to the end with Medi instead of AU, in summary: 1) their wincon was more of a pain to work around, and if they could even get it was questionable. Medi seemed closer. This was especially  because I had been urging Sandwolf/AU to organize with his targets since the beginning.2) I really thought AU had the last 2 scum (I thought it was asiina, lol) cause at that point we were working under the assumption that we were looking for a final scum who wasn't a protector, and FV said either Medi or AU had 2 scum. 3) 8 was generally less secretive and easier to work with than Sandwolf. 4) They were easier for legion to kill than Medi. So that's when/why I was like welp and didn't warn AU legion was attacking/encouraged 50 to do so. I did try to convince 50 to kill bowmore instead of Sandy, but for obvious reasons he didn't want to Idk what I would've done differently if that had happened.From then on, everything was pretty chill. The plan was for legion to kill off BB. We all rallied very nicely when we thought Rarity was gonna kill 8. Generally mistrustful of TT the whole game. We were all keen to the possibility he was 3p for a while, given grandi's flip/FV saying there were no scum there/the nonchalance coming from baltic regarding scum-hunting. Rarity posted:I wouldn't have given him $. Without a Java diplo to feed him cash he wouldn't have hit top tech anyway.
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Jul 24, 2014 17:37
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