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I'm sticking to my Sun Saint idea until it's actively disproven. 
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Aug 29, 2015 22:44
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| # ? May 18, 2024 05:40 |
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Sun Saint Sham Saint I.M.H.O.
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Aug 29, 2015 22:45
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Nash directed Hans by playing the annoying ingenue with unerring belief in Adlet, prompting Hans's genius to be compelled to obliterate her naivete by accusing Adlet. It was Nash. Kill Nash 2015. could also be maura but w/e
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Aug 29, 2015 22:53
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I'd elect her. Lets have a write-in campaign. Also, I hope we start getting Maura's motivation in all of this next episode.
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Aug 29, 2015 22:54
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The Sun Saint theory was based on weather science, right? Where do barriers enter into it?
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Aug 29, 2015 22:54
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dogsicle posted:The Sun Saint theory was based on weather science, right? Where do barriers enter into it? There's only one barrier, and it's activated after the Adlet Gang enters the temple. Since it's fog, it's indistinguishable from the natural fog, so since nobody checked before the barrier was actually activated it seems like the barrier's been activated the entire time.
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Aug 29, 2015 22:57
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dogsicle posted:The Sun Saint theory was based on weather science, right? Where do barriers enter into it?
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Aug 29, 2015 22:57
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I don't think that Flamie was wrong per se, but since the idea of the Sun Saint hadn't occurred to Adlet, something that out-of-left-field wouldn't have come up for Flamie either. It is kind of a weird idea.
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Aug 29, 2015 22:59
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Most damning is that we were shown everything they did to the activation mechanism, and none of it should have activated it. Unless we were misled about the activation sequence, which would be a poor trick; doesn't seem like there's any copout like that though or else the people who read the LN would have warned about it.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:02
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alcharagia posted:There's only one barrier, and it's activated after the Adlet Gang enters the temple. Since it's fog, it's indistinguishable from the natural fog, so since nobody checked before the barrier was actually activated it seems like the barrier's been activated the entire time. It's possible that someone screwed with the temple's trap barrier and put in a new one with a wholly different activation method though. alcharagia posted:I don't think that Flamie was wrong per se, but since the idea of the Sun Saint hadn't occurred to Adlet, something that out-of-left-field wouldn't have come up for Flamie either. It is kind of a weird idea.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:04
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Basically I think Rokka is operating under Phoenix Wright rules where the solution occurs to nobody until Adlet brain-shouts "NO WAAAAAAAAAY!!!" and turns the case on its head with the one decisive piece of evidence everyone had overlooked. Prosecutor Chester flips out and is like "Argh!" Hans gives Adlet a weird look from the other end of the defense bench.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:04
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Kylra posted:Could be, but I really really don't think the sun saint being a superpowered goddess among saints and also in league with the fiends is going to be it. The stated example we have of the Sun Saint's power is orbital laser beams. Making temperature shift is totally not that hard. (Also, I don't have a "why.")
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Aug 29, 2015 23:06
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I want to see Adlet Wright now.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:06
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alcharagia posted:The stated example we have of the Sun Saint's power is orbital laser beams. Making temperature shift is totally not that hard.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:07
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Also, Flamie's debunking of Adlet's running theory didn't disprove that Lauren was in on it and feeding the gang a line, so I'm taking that to mean that I was totally right about the activation method not being what he said it was.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:08
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Kylra posted:Seems like it would be pretty visible at least. Lens flare shots in Episode 4.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:11
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alcharagia posted:Also, Flamie's debunking of Adlet's running theory didn't disprove that Lauren was in on it and feeding the gang a line, so I'm taking that to mean that I was totally right about the activation method not being what he said it was. Except for that it might involve the "key to the temple" she has...
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Aug 29, 2015 23:18
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Kylra posted:Per this episode, there's no way a saint could exert enough power to create the fog that fast over the area without a special saint magic barrier set up beforehand, but you can also only have one barrier set up in an area or one of them doesn't work. The current barrier that works in the area is the one that doesn't let you escape. Since the sun saint has no fog-only barrier that works, and can't exert enough saint power to create all that fog that fast, saint powers alone could not have created a fake fog area. If the Sun Saint made real, non-barrier fog, it would happen after she deactivated her barrier that raised the temperature. So she wouldn't have to be exerting any power or conflicting with the Fog Barrier's activation.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:32
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dogsicle posted:If the Sun Saint made real, non-barrier fog, it would happen after she deactivated her barrier that raised the temperature. So she wouldn't have to be exerting any power or conflicting with the Fog Barrier's activation. If that's the case, then she would have to take years and set it up so that it overwrites the temple's barrier, activate it to get some fog, then deactivate it and also destroy her barrier's setup without a trace so that it doesn't interfere with the trap. And she or someone else would probably have to be nearby to activate it still anyway. That could just be a translation issue. I don't think so though, since the intent here seems to be to eliminate a second barrier in the area, as well as fake fog from known saint power abilities.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:42
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It specifically says "one type of barrier." Thus a fog saint could not have simulated the barrier activating, but another saint could have. The answer is that someone either created fog or simulated it using another saint power.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:54
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Isn't there a salt barrier keeping fiends away from the temple? So clearly barriers can coexist in some sense, unless I'm misunderstanding something. They just can't be on literally the exact same spot.
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Aug 29, 2015 23:54
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LostRook posted:It specifically says "one type of barrier." If only one type of barrier can be active at a time, and it requires a barrier to generate enough power to fog that large an area that fast, then they couldn't do it because they would need a second type of barrier regardless of their saint type. Clarste posted:Isn't there a salt barrier keeping fiends away from the temple? So clearly barriers can coexist in some sense, unless I'm misunderstanding something. They just can't be on literally the exact same spot. I'm actually rewatching that part now.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:00
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I'd say maybe the fog/misdirection barrier is shaped like a doughnut, and the anti-fiend barrier is in the hole, but the temple is clearly fogged up too in some of the later scenes. Hmmm.... E: Maybe the outer barrier can generate fog so the fog goes into the temple area, but isn't actually in effect there.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:04
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Kylra posted:If only one type of barrier can be active at a time, and it requires a barrier to generate enough power to fog that large an area that fast, then they couldn't do it because they would need a second type of barrier regardless of their saint type. Where are you getting this?
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Aug 30, 2015 00:05
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LostRook posted:Where are you getting this? E: Starts at 15:20. See also 16:45. Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Aug 30, 2015 |
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Aug 30, 2015 00:07
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The obvious answer is that it was actually Goldov all along.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:15
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Kylra posted:The scene where Adlet is with Flamie on the bridge in the most recent episode. The two main facts from it are that you would need a barrier type effect to generate fog that fast with saint powers, and that there can't be two barriers in one area. Again, no. You can have multiple barriers in a single area, but you cannot have multiple barrier of the same type in the same area. The point is that there weren't two fog barriers and someone activated the other one to trick everyone. This means that another barrier could exist to create/simulate the fog using a different type of saint power. The basis for temple itself is 3 types of barriers existing together.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:16
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LostRook posted:Again, no. You can have multiple barriers in a single area, but you cannot have multiple barrier of the same type in the same area. The point is that there weren't two fog barriers and someone activated the other one to trick everyone. This means that another barrier could exist to create/simulate the fog using a different type of saint power. The basis for temple is 3 types of barriers existing together. "You can only erect one type of barrier in a given place. If you put up two, one will be disabled." and "There's already a barrier in this forest, which summons fog. In other words, your hypothesis is impossible." The first statement was not translated as "one of a type of barrier in a given place". If I told you "you can have one type of food out of apples and oranges" would you think that I said you could have both apples and oranges? As I mentioned, maybe it's a poor translation, but per the given translation I take these two together to mean one barrier in an area at all. In other words, that merely having a bit of a different effect still makes it a different type of barrier. The fog effect is part of the misdirection barrier, and the effect only need be active along a ring perimeter. It doesn't need to be active in the temple area with the anti-fiend barrier. It's plausible that they could coexist in this manner while not overlapping each other, and that extra non-misdirection fog just happens to roll into the temple area from the perimeter. Kylra fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Aug 30, 2015 |
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Aug 30, 2015 00:25
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I don't know why Adlet doesn't mention this himself, but if we follow his own theory, doesn't it narrow down the list of suspects to him, Nash, and Goldov? They were the only ones anywhere near the mechanism before the real barrier went up. Unless the door was the mechanism, which just means Maura is the seventh. Also up until that point all the seventh needed was a localized fog to trick anyone directly at the temple, not one that needed to cover the entire forest, thus not necessitating a barrier fog at all or even any saint magic. Of course this makes Lauren's plan a pretty terrible one, since it relies on an extremely specific sequence of events for the current scenario to exist and for a fake activation method to be of any relevance, and any number of things that are presumably beyond the fiend's control could have happened that would have altered the entire scenario.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:46
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alcharagia posted:The obvious answer is that it was actually Goldov all along. New theory: Goldov is actually a woman, as evidenced by the boob strap that the censors forced him to wear. He is also the saint of cataracts, which explains why everybody thinks it's foggy. Fog was never even a part of the barrier seriously why would they need fog when they already have seals? The barrier actually broke years ago because OSHA hasn't been invented, and was activated before they even got there. It ran out of energy way back, but is powered by people getting blue-balled, and so started up again the moment Goldov got anywhere near it. The guys at the fort lied about this because they're actually a bunch of hobos that have been living there and have no idea how any of this works. They just made some poo poo up so the Braves would gently caress off faster and not discover their meth operation. The fiends convinced Goldov to do this because this gives him all the time he needs to get in Nash's pants. The fiends of course know that is never happening though.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:48
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Kylra posted:Flamie says per the CR translation: Yeah, if that's the official translation I'll go with that, but I still hold that a barrier isn't necessary to create the fog in the forest. It may be true for the fog saint, but nothing Flamie said discounted another saint replicating the effect.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:49
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Pavlov posted:New theory: Goldov is actually a woman, as evidenced by the boob strap that the censors forced him to wear. He is also the saint of cataracts, which explains why everybody thinks it's foggy. Fog was never even a part of the barrier seriously why would they need fog when they already have seals? The barrier actually broke years ago because OSHA hasn't been invented, and was activated before they even got there. It ran out of energy way back, but is powered by people getting blue-balled, and so started up again the moment Goldov got anywhere near it. The guys at the fort lied about this because they're actually a bunch of hobos that have been living there and have no idea how any of this works. They just made some poo poo up so the Braves would gently caress off faster and not discover their meth operation. The fiends convinced Goldov to do this because this gives him all the time he needs to get in Nash's pants. The fiends of course know that is never happening though. I'll buy it.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:50
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I suppose it comes down to whether you think a ""Barrier"" is required for the Sun Saint to heat an area. It's pretty minor compared to her melting a castle, to be fair. e: But why even discuss this with the insights Pavlov just laid on us, drat!
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Aug 30, 2015 00:56
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Xy Hapu posted:I don't know why Adlet doesn't mention this himself, but if we follow his own theory, doesn't it narrow down the list of suspects to him, Nash, and Goldov? They were the only ones anywhere near the mechanism before the real barrier went up. Unless the door was the mechanism, which just means Maura is the seventh. Everyone was pretty close to the temple, as evidenced by their quick entrance, and the flashback makes it clear that Adlet suspects anyone who touched the altar as having possibly activated it, possibly by accident. The actual activation time is presumably ambiguous, per Adlet's scenario. It happened after the fog actually appeared but before everyone left the temple. Xy Hapu posted:Of course this makes Lauren's plan a pretty terrible one, since it relies on an extremely specific sequence of events for the current scenario to exist and for a fake activation method to be of any relevance, and any number of things that are presumably beyond the fiend's control could have happened that would have altered the entire scenario. Well the seventh was a part of one of two groups and was conspiring with Lauren and the fiends so they presumably had a significant amount of control. dogsicle posted:I suppose it comes down to whether you think a ""Barrier"" is required for the Sun Saint to heat an area. It's pretty minor compared to her melting a castle, to be fair. Assuming it was even the Sun Saint's ability which I'm not sold on. We still haven't seen Maura's ability.
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Aug 30, 2015 00:58
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Xy Hapu posted:I don't know why Adlet doesn't mention this himself, but if we follow his own theory, doesn't it narrow down the list of suspects to him, Nash, and Goldov? They were the only ones anywhere near the mechanism before the real barrier went up. Unless the door was the mechanism, which just means Maura is the seventh. Xy Hapu posted:Also up until that point all the seventh needed was a localized fog to trick anyone directly at the temple, not one that needed to cover the entire forest, thus not necessitating a barrier fog at all or even any saint magic. I can't rule it out entirely, but there's not a complete story along these lines yet that I can tell, and seems like it would be a lot of effort for negative gain. LostRook posted:Yeah, if that's the official translation I'll go with that, but I still hold that a barrier isn't necessary to create the fog in the forest. It may be true for the fog saint, but nothing Flamie said discounted another saint replicating the effect.
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Aug 30, 2015 01:06
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LostRook posted:Everyone was pretty close to the temple, as evidenced by their quick entrance, and the flashback makes it clear that Adlet suspects anyone who touched the altar as having possibly activated it, possibly by accident. The actual activation time is presumably ambiguous, per Adlet's scenario. It happened after the fog actually appeared but before everyone left the temple. Yes but the sequence of events was: Adlet, Goldov, Fremie, Nash are the first to arrive and see the fog -> Adlet Goldov Nash mess with the mechanism -> everyone else arrives but none of them touch the mechanism -> Adlet and Hans go outside and confirm barrier is up. Thus only Adlet, Goldov, or Nash could have activated the barrier, assuming the mechanism shown is actually the mechanism, since no one else goes anywhere near it until the barrier is confirmed to be up. And only Adlet, Goldov, Fremie, and Nash need to be tricked, initially, into believing the fog is the barrier, thus no need for the fog to cover the entire forest, just in their immediate vicinity. Everyone else would have just seen the real barrier's fog once Adlet, Goldov, or Nash activated it. LostRook posted:Well the seventh was a part of one of two groups and was conspiring with Lauren and the fiends so they presumably had a significant amount of control. He would have needed to control the timing of when every brave arrived at the temple for this to work. Two braves arriving at once would have screwed it up. Adlet deciding not to leave the temple entrance would have screwed it up. The braves deciding not to screw with the mechanism and instead confirming the fog first would have screwed it up. It's such a roundabout way of screwing with them when Lauren could have just done something more direct, like stab each brave in the back when they were messing with the dummy activation mechanism or literally anything else.
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Aug 30, 2015 01:08
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Oh poo poo, smokescreens! Everyone's one weakness!
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Aug 30, 2015 01:12
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Kylra posted:This would need to know the real activation method, and one different from the given method. No one performed the known ritual on-screen between the time the fog came up around the temple, and when everyone arrived. The knife was in the pedestal when Adlet came in. If the fog was localized and the known ritual is the right one, everyone except Adlet would know the fog wasn't the real barrier before they entered the temple, and someone else would still have had to do it while Adlet's back was turned to the temple. Putting up the fake fog at that time is only going to make him turn back faster, so it seems like a dud plan. Yeah this assumes there's a fake and real activation method, which I think would be stupid but I'm just going along with Adlet's theory for the sake of pointing out how he and Fremie missed some obvious conclusions. So something Adlet or Nash or Goldov did activated the real one, which is what all the other braves saw. What Adelt, Nash, Goldov, and Fremie saw was the fake fog before activation. Only those four, who were in very close vicinity of each other, needed to 'see' the fake fog, since the real barrier was going to be activated shortly thereafter. And such a fog would be trivial to make, since it's not hard to create a decent sized area of fog/smoke even without magic. I included Goldov since he was in the vicinity of the mechanism and could have done/said something that was the activation method, though it's probably unlikely.
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Aug 30, 2015 01:17
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Xy Hapu posted:Yes but the sequence of events was: Adlet, Goldov, Fremie, Nash are the first to arrive and see the fog -> Adlet Goldov Nash mess with the mechanism -> everyone else arrives but none of them touch the mechanism -> Adlet and Hans go outside and confirm barrier is up. My guess is that Nash activated it, but did so by accident. However the flashback does show several people at the top of the altar. I have to double-check but I believe that several people were at the top of the altar prior to checking the activation with the string. If we don't know how the barrier is activated, anyone that was at the top is suspect. Xy Hapu posted:
The problem with stabbing someone in the back, assuming it even worked, was that everyone that went to Lauren went as a pair. Except Maura of course.
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Aug 30, 2015 01:18
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Kylra posted:It does seem vaguely plausible at a glance that the bombings of the fiends created an initial fog, but it would still be kind of weird for it to be over that specific and well-defined area so suddenly while no bombs were being dropped. The bombing had seemingly stopped by the time Adlet arrived at the temple and saw the changeling fiend. What if the fog was already present but the fiend bombings suppressed it around where the Braves were fighting?
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Aug 30, 2015 01:22
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