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Yes and no. We've come a massive way over the past decade in improving efficiency and I think we've still got a lot of improvements that can be made. 15 years ago you'd never think of a full size pickup breaking 20 hwy, never mind pushing 30. Inevitably electric is a solution, but of course he's going to monger about it now considering he owns an electric car company. Musk is still a a business man and is utilizing the events to his own advantage. Besides, all that electric power to charge the cars has to come from somewhere and wind/solar/nuclear still aren't commonplace. This leaves burning coal or natural gas.
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Sep 27, 2015 22:56
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Also i am willing to bet that making batteries, and then consequently what to do with them after they have been expended is pretty much on par with what a car makes for pollutants.
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Sep 27, 2015 23:37
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Also i am willing to bet that making batteries, and then consequently what to do with them after they have been expended is pretty much on par with what a car makes for pollutants. Yes, but that part happens in countries with poor brown/yellow people who don't vote in US elections, so it isn't a problem.
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Sep 27, 2015 23:47
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spog posted:Yes, but that part happens in countries with poor brown/yellow people who don't vote in US elections, so it isn't a problem. …and Canada.
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Sep 28, 2015 00:36
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StandardVC10 posted:…and Canada. Albino Brown people.
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Sep 28, 2015 01:02
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I'd like to see comparisons on pollution levels and amount of energy it takes to 'fuel' an electric vehicle using coal vs. an internal combustion vehicle with fuel. The coal for the electric vehicle has to be mined, transported, then burned in a power plant. The electricity generated has to be sent to the area where the car is and then used to charge it's batter. The fuel for the internal combustion vehicle needs oil pumped (mined?) and transported to a refinery, refined, then transported to the fueling station where it can be used to fuel the IC vehicle. It's almost always the shorter chain is the more efficient one but I'd still like to know by how much. The fuel for the IC vehicle is transported by other vehicles (usually powered by the same sourced-fuel) so there is an even greater loss of energy since you are burning it to make it and transport it. I never quite understand the hate for electrics out of hand. They are better than IC powered cars in every way but two, range and price. Even at drag racing a P85D Tesla will smoke either Hellcat, if that doesn't handily get you going for electric power then you aren't a real enthusiast.
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Sep 28, 2015 01:18
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Tesla's aren't your typical ev though - something like a Leaf or a plug-in Outlander is probably more what we're actually going to end up with in volume. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with them, just they're even less exciting than your average small hatch or crossover
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Sep 28, 2015 02:36
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StandardVC10 posted:Leaf blowers always struck me as the most wasteful form of lawn care. I thought so too till I lived in Louisiana with oak trees. They drop so many leafs in the winter that it will kill your grass if you don't pile them up and mulch them or haul them off.
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Sep 28, 2015 04:03
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Also i am willing to bet that making batteries, and then consequently what to do with them after they have been expended is pretty much on par with what a car makes for pollutants. I loved that Top Gear episode where they discussed how all the parts for the Prius are sourced. Cockmaster posted:http://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-dieselgate-proves-its-time-to-go-electric-1733163688 Diesel-Electric! C'mon!
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Sep 28, 2015 14:17
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Cockmaster posted:http://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-dieselgate-proves-its-time-to-go-electric-1733163688
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Sep 28, 2015 14:52
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KakerMix posted:I'd like to see comparisons on pollution levels and amount of energy it takes to 'fuel' an electric vehicle using coal vs. an internal combustion vehicle with fuel. There are so many variables that pretty much every report ends up getting discredited by someone, but most analysis I've seen put 100% (dirtiest coal possible) coal powered EVs slightly ahead of even the most efficient ICEs emissions wise. When you factor in that power plant pollution usually happens far away from populations instead of in the streets and that most of the country is reducing coal and increasing renewables (a growing number of homeowners offset all their charging with rooftop solar) EVs only get cleaner over time. Also I don't think there is a single scenario where batteries are just chucked in a landfill at the end of their lives as car batteries. Most will be recycled or used for non-auto applications like residential or commercial energy storage. Disclaimer: I'm a Tesla owner and stockholder but I've been a VW fanboy since I was a kid. eeenmachine fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 14:53
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eeenmachine posted:There are so many variables that pretty much every report ends up getting discredited by someone, but most analysis I've seen put 100% (dirtiest coal possible) coal powered EVs slightly ahead of even the most efficient ICEs emissions wise. When you factor in that power plant pollution usually happens far away from populations instead of in the streets and that most of the country is reducing coal and increasing renewables (a growing number of homeowners offset all their charging with rooftop solar) EVs only get cleaner over time. Also I don't think there is a single scenario where batteries are just chucked in a landfill at the end of their lives as car batteries. Most will be recycled or used for non-auto applications like residential or commercial energy storage. This is not to mention that if an engine is able to idle at a specific speed versus revving up and down to accelerate, it becomes more efficient.
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Sep 28, 2015 14:59
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Batteries are mined, transported, use oil based products, and i think you cant recycle a battery once its dead its dead (if any engineers can confirm or deny that would be great).
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Sep 28, 2015 15:27
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Not surprising, but Audi/Skoda admits to 3 million+ cheating vehicles: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34377443
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Sep 28, 2015 15:30
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EVERYWHERE 
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Oh poo poo. The Audi dealers near me have a glut of Q5 inventory as it is. Looks like my decision got a lot easier.
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Sep 28, 2015 15:50
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Any news on the new Passat (B8, for Euro 6) yet? Everbody keeps talking about the B7 (for Euro 5).
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Sep 28, 2015 15:56
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:Batteries are mined, transported, use oil based products, and i think you cant recycle a battery once its dead its dead (if any engineers can confirm or deny that would be great). I don't know your source is from Garbagemen so I have to take into account your garbage agenda. Big Garbage 
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Sep 28, 2015 16:04
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meatpimp posted:Not surprising, but Audi/Skoda admits to 3 million+ cheating vehicles: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34377443 Let's be honest: Did they even have to announce? Everyone knows it at this point.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:15
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Lithium ion car Batteries can be recycled: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm
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Sep 28, 2015 16:17
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Jealous Cow posted:Lithium ion car Batteries can be recycled: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm Most batteries are recyclable, its whether or not its profitable (or required) to do so.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:23
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CommieGIR posted:Most batteries are recyclable, its whether or not its profitable (or required) to do so. It'll be profitable eventually, once there are substantially more electric vehicles on the road and regulations shifting from emissions to consumption and sustainability. Or one hopes.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:28
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Jealous Cow posted:Or one hopes. Agreed. Right now its still somewhat of a niche market, give it time...
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Sep 28, 2015 17:08
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KakerMix posted:I'd like to see comparisons on pollution levels and amount of energy it takes to 'fuel' an electric vehicle using coal vs. an internal combustion vehicle with fuel. This right here is the problem. The E-golf costs almost as much as my R. Until electric vehicles can be driven 1000 miles and cost roughly the same amount as a normal car, full EV is just not going to happen large scale. Most people can't afford to have a 35k car that can only go 200 miles per charge then has to be plugged in for 6-8 hours.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:15
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veedubfreak posted:This right here is the problem. The E-golf costs almost as much as my R. Until electric vehicles can be driven 1000 miles and cost roughly the same amount as a normal car, full EV is just not going to happen large scale. Most people can't afford to have a 35k car that can only go 200 miles per charge then has to be plugged in for 6-8 hours. From what I've seen people most definitely can live with 200 miles a charge/day, they just have the perception they can't. How often do you need to drive 1000 miles in one go? How often do you want to? Do you really drive so often that you fill up with fuel every day? I understand you are a home computer technician of some sort correct? I used to be also and that sort of drive-all-the-time job isn't typical. Anyway, where is the floor to this scandal with VW? How far is it going to go? Do you guys think other manufactures are going to be exposed for doing the same thing?
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Sep 28, 2015 17:25
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Have EVs been on the market long enough to get a good look at how they perform on the used car market? Either cost wise or mechanically. There's plenty of people who can't or won't buy new cars and I'm curious how an EV will work in 10+ years.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:32
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Uthor posted:Have EVs been on the market long enough to get a good look at how they perform on the used car market? Either cost wise or mechanically. There's plenty of people who can't or won't buy new cars and I'm curious how an EV will work in 10+ years. That's part of the problem: While the Prius holds its resale value due to its gasoline motor backup, we're not really sure how well the used market for EVs is going to work, especially as the primary driver for used EVs may be battery replacements.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:34
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veedubfreak posted:This right here is the problem. The E-golf costs almost as much as my R. Until electric vehicles can be driven 1000 miles and cost roughly the same amount as a normal car, full EV is just not going to happen large scale. Most people can't afford to have a 35k car that can only go 200 miles per charge then has to be plugged in for 6-8 hours. This is what cars like the Volt are for. It would meet the majority of my driving needs in electric mode and I'd still be able to drive to Colorado multiple times a year.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:48
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CommieGIR posted:That's part of the problem: While the Prius holds its resale value due to its gasoline motor backup, we're not really sure how well the used market for EVs is going to work, especially as the primary driver for used EVs may be battery replacements. Besides batteries everything else power train related should far outlast a gasoline or diesel powered car. No oil, no piston rings, no spark plugs, no oil bearings. One big moving part, no warm up time and besides brake fluid and rubber bits disintegrating like normal batteries would be the only thing I'd be worried about. At least with the Tesla S battery replacement can be done a lot quicker than an engine swap on a comparable gas car. Don't know what this will be like with the Model X or what it is like with the Leaf or E Golf or any of the other full electrics available. I'd be more worried about Tesla intentionally messing with the used car market in so far as they can push updates to their vehicles without you knowing or having a say. Isn't there some sort of drama about selling a Tesla without going through the Tesla company? Like they won't support Teslas not bought through them?
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Sep 28, 2015 17:50
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I dunno the awful build quality on Teslas often leads to them being in the shop as often as any ICE car. My friend's Tesla has gone six rounds on a leaky sunroof now, been replaced twice, keeps happening. I mean theoretically the engines last forever but in reality poo poo breaks.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:56
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quote:From what I've seen people most definitely can live with 200 miles a charge/day, they just have the perception they can't. How often do you need to drive 1000 miles in one go? How often do you want to? Do you really drive so often that you fill up with fuel every day? While it isn't an everyday occurrence I would wager that nearly all vehicles will pull a >200 mile day at some point in their lifetime, likely yearly. People are concerned about the uncommon but sure to happen days where an EV simply won't be able to do what they will want their car to do. Tesla tries to address this with the Supercharger network but that isn't something that our national grid can support for a large number of drivers. EVs would be perfect for 99.5% of the driving my girlfriend and I do which is mostly trips around the city. But then there are the times friends or family come into town and we want to take a day trip to some BBQ place in Bumfuck TX and I sure don't want to deal with the hassle of renting a car. To bring it back to VW does this whole thing mean we'll see them frantically trying to catch up on hybrid tech?
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Sep 28, 2015 18:05
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fknlo posted:This is what cars like the Volt are for. It would meet the majority of my driving needs in electric mode and I'd still be able to drive to Colorado multiple times a year. I would love to own a Volt. I have never sat in one, but I have heard the interior has a strange layout and cheap feel, but if you're buying a Volt for the *Luxury Lifestytle* you need to re-evaluate your priorities. I believe I could easily get away with a Nissan Leaf (which I consider very ugly) or similar plug in vehicle and use my wife's crossover for the annual 1000 mile road trip. My biggest complaint about the Prius and similar hybrids is that in my opinion the mileage should be better, a Jetta TDI (  )or a Geo Metro can get similar mileage without the expensive batteries. Hell, a lot of cars actually used to get very similar mileage in the 1980s. What I like about the Prius is that it showed that the batteries would actually last a lot longer than most people expected.Howstuffworks.com posted:If the batteries could still possibly have a charge, though, they're frozen in liquid nitrogen and smashed to frozen bits (cool!).  There has to be a better way to handle charged batteries, I thought liquid nitrogen was expensive.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:10
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Pryor on Fire posted:I dunno the awful build quality on Teslas often leads to them being in the shop as often as any ICE car. My friend's Tesla has gone six rounds on a leaky sunroof now, been replaced twice, keeps happening. I mean theoretically the engines last forever but in reality poo poo breaks. Probably because build quality on them is lovely for what you're paying. I could make a list but...
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Sep 28, 2015 18:11
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Single data point: I've been driving electric for 6 years now (Leaf/Roadster/Model S) and have only been inconvenienced once or twice. I've driven from San Diego to SF with no trouble (there are probably double the super chargers since I did that trip). Total maintenance over last 6 years: 1 door handle, condensation in 1 headlight, tire pressure sensor.Shifty Pony posted:While it isn't an everyday occurrence I would wager that nearly all vehicles will pull a >200 mile day at some point in their lifetime, likely yearly. People are concerned about the uncommon but sure to happen days where an EV simply won't be able to do what they will want their car to do. Tesla tries to address this with the Supercharger network but that isn't something that our national grid can support for a large number of drivers. The plan is for the superchargers to be relatively independent from the grid with solar and battery storage. 99% of daily ev trips will be powered by charges done overnight in the owners garage, superchargers are only used on that once a year trip most people make.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:12
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250 miles seems to be about the sweet spot for EV range as that really represents about 4 hours of driving in a day. That's something that most people do not exceed. The mindset just needs to change that if you are going to make a longer trip and charging on the way isn't a possibility, rental ICS vehicles will be the solution. I can really only come up with one or two times a year that 250 miles without an 8 hour break wouldn't be enough range for me, and those times are predictable enough to arrange a rental.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:19
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eeenmachine posted:Single data point: I've been driving electric for 6 years now (Leaf/Roadster/Model S) and have only been inconvenienced once or twice. I've driven from San Diego to SF with no trouble (there are probably double the super chargers since I did that trip). Total maintenance over last 6 years: 1 door handle, condensation in 1 headlight, tire pressure sensor. And that works fine for small numbers of cars. You'd need a solar array larger than most suburban planned communities and storage capable of peaking at half a gigawatt to match the energy transferring capability of just one truck stop along a busy interstate.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:35
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Shifty Pony posted:And that works fine for small numbers of cars. You'd need a solar array larger than most suburban planned communities and storage capable of peaking at half a gigawatt to match the energy transferring capability of just one truck stop along a busy interstate. Somebody call nuclear? 
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Sep 28, 2015 18:41
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Shifty Pony posted:And that works fine for small numbers of cars. You'd need a solar array larger than most suburban planned communities and storage capable of peaking at half a gigawatt to match the energy transferring capability of just one truck stop along a busy interstate. The point is you only need to charge a small number of cars during the day since only those taking extended trips in any 100 mi radius need to stop there. Who is talking about electrifying commercial trucking?
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Sep 28, 2015 19:30
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eeenmachine posted:The point is you only need to charge a small number of cars during the day since only those taking extended trips in any 100 mi radius need to stop there. Who is talking about electrifying commercial trucking? I think we're ready: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon
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Sep 28, 2015 19:49
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Shifty Pony posted:While it isn't an everyday occurrence I would wager that nearly all vehicles will pull a >200 mile day at some point in their lifetime, likely yearly. People are concerned about the uncommon but sure to happen days where an EV simply won't be able to do what they will want their car to do. Tesla tries to address this with the Supercharger network but that isn't something that our national grid can support for a large number of drivers. This is the same faulty logic people use to justify driving a truck that gets 18mpg every day. From what I see on the roads, there are plenty of people that realize it's fine to have an EV for 99% of the driving they do and keep their old ICE car around for road trips.
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Sep 28, 2015 20:09
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Shifty Pony posted:To bring it back to VW does this whole thing mean we'll see them frantically trying to catch up on hybrid tech? The XL1 doesn't count? And the Jetta gets better mpg than any of the tdi's. Probably drives like poo poo, but still.
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Sep 28, 2015 21:36
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