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What did they just mix wood grain alcohol and turpentine?
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Nov 19, 2015 16:44
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They probably just drink Sisters blood. 
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Nov 19, 2015 16:45
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Space Marines' whole thing is that they're a throwback living fossil clinging desperately to the unchanging ideals of ye olde yon far away days of ancient yore. Outdated ideas about inclusivity are thematically consistent. These are space knight monks who pray to their guns. To a poster in 2015, space marines are embarrassingly behind the times and that's the point. It's frustrating because GW has already undermined the concept of unchanging, static 10,000 year traditionalists. They're constantly developing new toys, new combat rules, new variant gear, etc, etc. Women marines didn't work with that iteration of Marines, but neither does half the other super science goofy poo poo GW has released for marines in the last ten years.
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Nov 19, 2015 16:47
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To the point, the Leman Rus is a WW1 British tank with the tracks on the wrong way.
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Nov 19, 2015 16:49
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Radish posted:What did they just mix wood grain alcohol and turpentine? I remember an old bit of fluff that Space Wolf drinking contests were based around who can drink enough beer fast enough to pass out before their metabolism nullified the toxins.
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Nov 19, 2015 16:57
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I just realized space marines aren't boy power fantasies. They're loving grandpa fantasies. Old men who no longer need women in their life obsessed with how good things were back in the day and refusing to change boom boom boom posted:They aren't gonna do that any time soon either. And you end up with the exact same thing as Warpath, where there's almost no female miniatures in the game because "it could be anything under the armor so it's fine hurr" is it heels and power armor titties, maybe a lil bit of the ol' zettai ryouiki Agreed on Grey Knights anyway. They're loving creepy.
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Nov 19, 2015 16:58
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Spiderdrake posted:I just realized space marines aren't boy power fantasies. They're loving grandpa fantasies. Essentially, yes. They've even got a codex that tells them what's permissible, like the Constitution or Bible. And adhere rabidly to only the parts that suit them, ignoring what doesn't - exactly like real life grandpas.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:06
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The Inquisitor trilogy had an Imperial Fist who, in his spare time, would resolve the flesh on his arm with acid so he could scrimshaw the names of fallen brothers on the bone. This is another throwback to the 'Space Marine' novel - a cadet is being punished for something by having to untangle a puzzle made of interlocking rings, in a bowl of acid before hes hand dissolve. Lexandro D'Arquebus then does the Acid and scrimshaw to remember the two Necromundans he was recruited with, who die near the end of the book. I think it also says in that, that they tried converting females, but the implants and therapy always killed them.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:10
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Do they retcon all the new goofy Space Marine models as having been in the codex all along or do they just not give a poo poo about that plot point anymore?
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Nov 19, 2015 17:19
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Jonny Nox posted:To the point, the Leman Rus is a WW1 British tank with the tracks on the wrong way. Perfectly designed to retreat in. The IG know their battle plan, and it's a constant withdrawal while the heavy artillery pound the enemy into paste. Everything else is made to look like that's the front to keep the commissars happy when they quote from their books of how the space marines win wars. You remember those kids who acted like 40-somethings when they were 12? They are the commissars to the grandpa space marines. edit - Actually, they're not, what are the ones I'm thinking of? Land raiders. They're the backward fellers. gently caress knows why space grandpa has the retreating tank. goatface fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Nov 19, 2015 |
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Nov 19, 2015 17:24
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Radish posted:Do they retcon all the new goofy Space Marine models as having been in the codex all along or do they just not give a poo poo about that plot point anymore? A little of both, sometimes it's always been there and we've just never seen it, sometimes the technologically stagnant Imperium comes up with something completely new whilst everyone else (CSM) is stuck with the same old poo poo they've been using for the last then thousand years.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:24
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Ive never liked the look of the Leman Russ (tank and the dude)
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Nov 19, 2015 17:29
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I pretty much came around entirely on the idea that women space marines (or at least women who become space marines) should be a recognized canon possibility after the last discussion. The key point is that we're not just dealing with a setting for novels or films or what have you, where the author comes up with everything to serve a certain dramatic or narrative purpose. In this context, people not having equal representation can be fine, because societies or institutions with unequal representation are a valid subject for fiction. But when you make it into a game that is explicitly about creating and playing a player avatar (and I'm not just talking about FFG here, because make no mistake, a player's tabletop army and its characters are an avatar for that player in the game) then making a player feel as though "they" aren't represented in the setting is a pretty big point of failure. So yes, lore-wise it's fine for the chapter master of X chapter to be a sexist who has them let very few women in, but closing the door entirely with a just-so story is a really bad thing for a game genre that's all about customization and personality. Which mini games ought to be. Spiderdrake posted:So what exactly should they do I assume it's more of a question of what happens when you've got the less fully armored models. Like, the fact that Enforcers can hypothetically be women inside the armor isn't an excuse for the units in different armies with less armor, bare faces or heads, etc. to not have an equal representation of feminine sculpts. ro5s posted:A little of both, sometimes it's always been there and we've just never seen it, sometimes the technologically stagnant Imperium comes up with something completely new whilst everyone else (CSM) is stuck with the same old poo poo they've been using for the last then thousand years. Whenever a new chapter like the Astral Claws falls to chaos, they pass through a checkpoint on the way out of the Imperium where they turn over their assault cannons, cyclone missile launchers, land raider crusaders, and apothecary gear. It's all done in a very thorough and orderly fashion, really.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:37
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What you're missing is that Space Marines in 40k aren't actually Space Marines, they're just uprated Solar Auxilia fitted with Solar Auxilia grade Space Marine-look-a-like equipment and a few of the less intense surviving STCs, because the power to create new Space Marines and most of their real equipment was lost. The only real Space Marines left are the old ones that belong to chaos, and they don't need any Solar Auxilia toys - they have real marine weapons, so anything they get is thrown to their meat puppet cultists.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:47
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They trade them in for the excess stock of reaper autocannons and power scythes.
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Nov 19, 2015 17:49
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JerryLee posted:I pretty much came around entirely on the idea that women space marines (or at least women who become space marines) should be a recognized canon possibility after the last discussion. The key point is that we're not just dealing with a setting for novels or films or what have you, where the author comes up with everything to serve a certain dramatic or narrative purpose. In this context, people not having equal representation can be fine, because societies or institutions with unequal representation are a valid subject for fiction. But when you make it into a game that is explicitly about creating and playing a player avatar (and I'm not just talking about FFG here, because make no mistake, a player's tabletop army and its characters are an avatar for that player in the game) then making a player feel as though "they" aren't represented in the setting is a pretty big point of failure. Bingo. This is it. A lot of the posters in this discussion have read novels or at least pored over army book fluff and have a lot of context to use when thinking about "is this universe design OK or not." But what we are actually talking about is a collection of models and game components that are exposed through advertising and perhaps through in-store games (where those are still possible, lol) to a steady supply of potential new customers that might or might not join in. And to those people, Games Workshop's games, with 40k as its flagship game, are grossly misbalanced towards male representation. The few places where women are included have problems with how they're represented. In-universe justifications for this imbalance are irrelevant because the entire universe is fiction and the author (to the extent a corporate entity can be an "author") has total control over the fiction. The people in this conversation going into depth about why the fiction justifies all-male space marines etc. are already obviously more committed to the integrity of the existing canon than Games Workshop as a company bothers to be. We have just seen how little Games Workshop cares about the accumulated lore of a 30-year-old setting if its sales numbers aren't satisfactory. That context cannot be ignored. Space Marines are what they are not because of faithfulness to their concept as detailed in a bunch of novels, but because being what they are sells well enough to satisfy Games Workshop bean counters. If they sold poorly there would be a chance for them to be modified. Games Workshop's executives know exactly what audience they're trying to target (teenage and 20-something boys) and they demonstratively do not give a poo poo about appealing to anyone outside that audience. We don't get women space marines because they don't think that would sell well, and not because they'd just ruin the concept or be a violation of the social commentary intended by the faction or whatever. There may have been authors commissioned or employed by GW over the years who have individually given attention to portraying a particular thematic social commentary through the work, but when that has happened, it's mostly come down to individual effort. GW does not give a gently caress, has not given a gently caress for at least 15+ years, and may never have given a gently caress. Ultimately that's the core criticism. GW's misogyny is casual and ingrained to their (I would argue desperately incorrect and obsolete) perceptions of how to make products that will sell well. And that's the core point worthy of criticism. The lack of women in the Space Marines is just one data point in a heaping pile of evidence supporting that conclusion. GW's executives are incompetent dinosaurs. They don't just not understand how to appeal to women, they don't even want to appeal to women, they don't think women like games or want to play games and they're perfectly content to stick with that conclusion without testing it in today's marketplace. They believe that male power fantasy is what sells plastic crack and that's all there is to it.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:07
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^ wisdom
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Nov 19, 2015 18:15
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JcDent posted:And SoB should include men because this "piousness" is putting women on pedestal, etc. horrible sexism. MRA spotted
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Nov 19, 2015 18:17
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Maybe the Emperor was just a misogynistic asshat.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:21
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Did that AoS version of Guardsmanquest ever get made?
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Nov 19, 2015 18:21
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Pureauthor posted:Maybe the Emperor was just a misogynistic asshat. you forgot terrible absentee father too
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Nov 19, 2015 18:22
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JerryLee posted:I assume it's more of a question of what happens when you've got the less fully armored models. Like, the fact that Enforcers can hypothetically be women inside the armor isn't an excuse for the units in different armies with less armor, bare faces or heads, etc. to not have an equal representation of feminine sculpts.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:24
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NTRabbit posted:What you're missing is that Space Marines in 40k aren't actually Space Marines, they're just uprated Solar Auxilia fitted with Solar Auxilia grade Space Marine-look-a-like equipment and a few of the less intense surviving STCs, because the power to create new Space Marines and most of their real equipment was lost. The only real Space Marines left are the old ones that belong to chaos, and they don't need any Solar Auxilia toys - they have real marine weapons, so anything they get is thrown to their meat puppet cultists. If this were the explanation and the chaos marines were just plain better I would like 40k much more. The inhuman killing machines created by generations past come back to kill the legitimately heroic warriors of the present.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:25
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it would be cool if chaos marines were better/more powerful than loyalist marines but they always suck lol
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Nov 19, 2015 18:27
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Spiderdrake posted:Warpath seems like a pretty specific example to throw that out on, given there aren't many new sculpts known and there was a big backlash in the backer comments when they confirmed you'd have feminine heads on the GCPS trooper sprues.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:28
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Bistromatic posted:People got upset about the option to have women in their armies? Do you have any samples or links? I want to drink their tears. They got upset about the fact a female head on the sprue meant they weren't doing "real" female sculpts for GCPS, you know, big ol' titties and heels and big butts or whatever the gently caress. It's in the backer comments if you want to look for it, but it was basically just whining in that regard and probably on other stupid forums given the backer comments are mostly tip of the iceberg.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:35
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The idea that 'Oh these armored troopers are totally half female, if you want them to be' is mostly bad because it's an obvious fig leaf for actually doing anything. I mean there are certainly ways that troopers can be equipped that mean there is no visual difference, and that is an ok thing. So you can look at the IG and say 'ok, well there are supposed to be women enlisted, I guess maybe its just hard to tell because of Cadian armor' - but that would hold a lot more water if there weren't models for 9 named characters, all of whom are men. It doesn't do any good to reassure people that you can imagine women in the field, so long as they are invisible and unnamed. Edit: In this sense female heads are a good option to let people make the choice on their armies, to be clear.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:37
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I like the idea of a group of emotionally crippled brainwashed child soldiers who are completely removed from what they were when they were recruited being told that their genetic ancestors and the paragons of their kind were a brotherhood and then just cargo culting that poo poo.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:38
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Spiderdrake posted:No. There was a guy bitching about how women soldiers are totally different from men and sharing a body on the sprue was wrong and inappropriate on dakka until another poster put up a picture of his own wife in her US Army Combat Uniform, Advanced Combat Helmet, and the new female version of the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, and because of the loose and baggy nature of the uniform and shape of the real life body armour you could legitimately have blocked out the face and not have been able to determine the gender of the soldier.
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Nov 19, 2015 18:41
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Ashcans posted:The idea that 'Oh these armored troopers are totally half female, if you want them to be' is mostly bad because it's an obvious fig leaf for actually doing anything. I mean there are certainly ways that troopers can be equipped that mean there is no visual difference, and that is an ok thing. So you can look at the IG and say 'ok, well there are supposed to be women enlisted, I guess maybe its just hard to tell because of Cadian armor' - but that would hold a lot more water if there weren't models for 9 named characters, all of whom are men. It doesn't do any good to reassure people that you can imagine women in the field, so long as they are invisible and unnamed. Yeah this is a problem with growing up in a culture where characters doing stereotypical "boys stuff" is a man/male unless identified otherwise. I do think that at least in this respect its good to have women/female identifiers to remind people there could and should be both - as long as it's done respectfully and until there's a more egalitarian assumption of equal representation under armor. Of course I always said my Tau were 50/50 men and women, or more recently 100% women under that armor. 
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Nov 19, 2015 18:48
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Moola posted:it would be cool if chaos marines were better/more powerful than loyalist marines That's because no one cares about anything that's not Space Marines
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Nov 19, 2015 18:48
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You'd think Chaos Space Marines would be liked, though. People like them in 30k and I can get behind the idea of "gone too far" crazy republican space grandpa. Maybe GW needs to re-focus on making CSM more marine, less goopy chaos turds.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:00
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Chaos Space Marines have real sexual diversity. You've got no idea how many vaginas and penises and peniginas those dudes have.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:04
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Spiderdrake posted:Maybe GW needs to re-focus on making CSM more marine, less goopy chaos turds. Remember GW loves to not release army books for unpopular armies that are unpopular strictly because they have not had an army book released in a long time/suck in the game.
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Nov 19, 2015 19:04
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Iron Crowned posted:That's because no one cares about anything that's not Space Marines but theyre CHAOS space marines
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Nov 19, 2015 19:27
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Moola posted:but theyre CHAOS space marines They're not Ultramarines, who gives a gently caress?
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Nov 19, 2015 19:37
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boom boom boom posted:Chaos Space Marines have real sexual diversity. You've got no idea how many vaginas and penises and peniginas those dudes have. Nurgle is the only truly benevolent force. Vote Chaos 2016.
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Nov 19, 2015 21:23
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NTRabbit posted:There was a guy bitching about how women soldiers are totally different from men and sharing a body on the sprue was wrong and inappropriate on dakka until another poster put up a picture of his own wife in her US Army Combat Uniform, Advanced Combat Helmet, and the new female version of the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, and because of the loose and baggy nature of the uniform and shape of the real life body armour you could legitimately have blocked out the face and not have been able to determine the gender of the soldier. I loved the guy arguing that Victoria's guardswomen were not defined enough, they need more pronounced boobs and hips and their figure isn't feminine, seriously watch some movies if you want to see how females look. He told all that to a female sculptor  boom boom boom posted:Chaos Space Marines have real sexual diversity. You've got no idea how many vaginas and penises and peniginas those dudes have.
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Nov 19, 2015 21:36
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Pierzak posted:I loved the guy arguing that Victoria's guardswomen were not defined enough, they need more pronounced boobs and hips and their figure isn't feminine, seriously watch some movies if you want to see how females look. He told all that to a female sculptor Just, goddamn it space grandpa, no one under thirty knows what you're talking about!
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Nov 19, 2015 22:04
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NTRabbit posted:There was a guy bitching about how women soldiers are totally different from men and sharing a body on the sprue was wrong and inappropriate on dakka until another poster put up a picture of his own wife in her US Army Combat Uniform, Advanced Combat Helmet, and the new female version of the Improved Outer Tactical Vest, and because of the loose and baggy nature of the uniform and shape of the real life body armour you could legitimately have blocked out the face and not have been able to determine the gender of the soldier. AlexHolker right?
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Nov 19, 2015 22:20
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