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It's not using them up, it's just saving them for later!
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May 2, 2017 16:59
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Loopoo posted:Is there any downside to bussing whatever the hell I want? Cause I didn't bus gears in my starter factory and it was a major pain in the rear end. Having to put gear assemblers where they were needed made my assembly stacks messy and annoying. if you're bussing everything than it can quickly become more messy and annoying than assembling stuff on-site gears actually saves space but stuff like engines is not worth it. imagine you need those engines somewhere but it's on the other side of the 12 other materials that you're bussing. now imagine you finally solved that problem but then realized that your iron bus needs to be wider by one belt
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May 2, 2017 16:59
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little munchkin posted:now imagine you finally solved that problem but then realized that your iron bus needs to be wider by one belt Everyone should embrace the zen of having to bulldoze half their factory every so often to expand and clean up their production anyway.
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May 2, 2017 17:02
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Loopoo posted:Is there any downside to bussing whatever the hell I want? Cause I didn't bus gears in my starter factory and it was a major pain in the rear end. Having to put gear assemblers where they were needed made my assembly stacks messy and annoying. As long as what you're not bussing is wire. Everything else compacts down, so a bus is more space-efficient. Wire expands, so a bus wastes space.
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May 2, 2017 17:02
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Hey uh GotLag, quick Q: your electro-furnaces aren't supposed to be this dim by design, right
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May 2, 2017 17:03
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seravid posted:Do you guys enjoy building these bus factories or do you do them because it's the Optimal Way? I tried one once and it ended up indistinguishable from every other bus factory I've seen: neat and dead inside. I really don't get the appeal. A main bus probably isn't optimal, not for larger factories which tend towards modular/bots/rail. I like belts and buses though, so it's what I stick with. And yes, it's because I enjoy it. Order out of chaos and all that, planning ahead, trying to control how and in which direction a factory grows. Not sure what a giant factory looking "dead inside" even means in this context though. How do you differentiate between one that's dead inside and one that isn't? I mean every spaghetti or modular or whatever factory is pretty much indistinguishable from every spaghetti, modular or whatever factory as well. The beaconed setups you've posted on previous pages are pretty indistinguishable from every other beaconed setup and are fairly neat and are optimised to a degree. I think it's just the nature of the game, especially if you want to build bigger than what it takes to launch a single rocket. Gravy Jones fucked around with this message at 17:39 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 17:26
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I like bussing to get started. You need a factory to build enough materials to build your REAL factory, anyways. Bussing is simple and quick so you can get to 8-lane train setups  Also, space is the only truly unlimited resource in Factorio, so use as much as you want!
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May 2, 2017 18:10
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seravid posted:Do you guys enjoy building these bus factories or do you do them because it's the Optimal Way? I tried one once and it ended up indistinguishable from every other bus factory I've seen: neat and dead inside. I really don't get the appeal. Why does everyone assume bussed factories are neat and clean? This is how I make military science in my multplayer game with my friend:  Busses give an easy and clean way to just have a convenient direction to put in all your raw resources at the "top". Just shove more iron/copper in at one end and feed it to your entire factory. Of course my buddy then decided to...bypass that idea by having a rail station deliver iron/steel midway down the bus just below said munitions factory which was a wonderful mess that didn't solve all that many problems/created new ones. But we later went back and fixed that. I find bussed factories don't prevent me creating spaghetti messes. They just let me have a skeleton to build said messes off of. My bus also tend to be a giant mess as I intentionally make it a half-mile wide no-man's land of belts between the starting copper and iron.
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May 2, 2017 18:15
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The sciences are easy to plan around a bus, but trying to automate the miscellaneous odds and ends that don't feed into your science and therefore aren't needed in a constant stream always turn into spaghetti for me. I used to just make nearly everything by hand pre robots, but that gets to the point of being both tedious and self defeating, which is by design. Just because you're not going for Lazy Bastard doesn't mean you shouldn't automate anything and everything. It took me way too long to learn that lesson. I've got to the point where the only thing I make by hand for the meat of the game is Oil Refineries, and that's only because Assembler 3s are way the hell up the tech tree.
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May 2, 2017 18:24
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I used to do pretty much all of the not-research not-rocket stuff with logistics chests, but those moved so far down the tech tree that I've had to adapt a little bit. I used to use the bus to make inserters, but I somehow carved out a little square area and belted iron plates, iron gears, and green circuits, and those 3 ingredients make an incredible amount of stuff: The demand for any of it isn't constant so for the most part throughput doesn't matter, all that matters is that the material ends up there eventually.
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May 2, 2017 18:31
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Alkydere posted:Busses give an easy and clean way to just have a convenient direction to put in all your raw resources at the "top". Just shove more iron/copper in at one end and feed it to your entire factory. Of course my buddy then decided to...bypass that idea by having a rail station deliver iron/steel midway down the bus just below said munitions factory which was a wonderful mess that didn't solve all that many problems/created new ones. But we later went back and fixed that. I'm like your friend. If a raw resource bus gets depleted I'm more likely to just add another depot down the line to replenish the bus than expand it to some 32 tile wide monstrosity.
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May 2, 2017 19:09
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FISHMANPET posted:The demand for any of it isn't constant so for the most part throughput doesn't matter, all that matters is that the material ends up there eventually. Yeah, this is key. For most non- science related products, they'll only be produced for a short time after you take something out, so thoroughput is completely meaningless. If thoroughput doesn't matter, automating just about anything becomes trivial.
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May 2, 2017 19:08
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GotLag posted:Thanks. Any thoughts on the balance of the upgraded electric furnaces? I never played up to blue science before, I always got distracted by another modding opportunity. Bus chat: 4x4 lanes, 2 buffer lanes around each group for underground belts, power poles, roboports etc, a 4 lane roadway in the middle. 3 tiles of additional buffer around the subfactories.  (drawn up in sandbox for demonstration purposes) 
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May 2, 2017 19:19
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Thanks for all the answers. I wasn't judging, just curious about something I don't quite understand.Gravy Jones posted:A main bus probably isn't optimal, not for larger factories which tend towards modular/bots/rail. I like belts and buses though, so it's what I stick with. And yes, it's because I enjoy it. Order out of chaos and all that, planning ahead, trying to control how and in which direction a factory grows. Not sure what a giant factory looking "dead inside" even means in this context though. How do you differentiate between one that's dead inside and one that isn't? I mean every spaghetti or modular or whatever factory is pretty much indistinguishable from every spaghetti, modular or whatever factory as well. The beaconed setups you've posted on previous pages are pretty indistinguishable from every other beaconed setup and are fairly neat and are optimised to a degree. I think it's just the nature of the game, especially if you want to build bigger than what it takes to launch a single rocket. Every spaghetti is its own thing, though, created on the fly as the factory develops. Buses are pre-made, with fixed branches (right/left, up/down) and lanes of plates and circuits and whatever often stretching ahead in the distance, way beyond the current needs of the factory. As you said, I did use a fairly standard modular factory for my 1RPM, which is why I'm setting some self-imposed challenges for the next one. One of which involves the use of giant trains and I do mean giant. Anyone with experience dealing with two-headed long-rear end trains? I'm thinking asymmetrical locomotives, at least, but no idea for the number of wagons to keep things moving at a reasonable pace (especially now with fuel and braking bonuses).
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May 2, 2017 19:24
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Nuclearmonkee posted:I'm like your friend. If a raw resource bus gets depleted I'm more likely to just add another depot down the line to replenish the bus than expand it to some 32 tile wide monstrosity. The issue wasn't the monstrosity (in fact, since he has a thing for relying too heavily on "hey, here's an optimal setup I found online!" I vastly approved of it), the issue was that none of that iron got into our low-tier part production. So when our initial iron deposit started running low we were running out of gears and circuits while we had all the iron in the world to make ammo out of. So we went out and shot some biter nests and then redirected the iron to the top. 
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May 2, 2017 19:27
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I have no idea how my factory functions anymore, and I'm sure has hell not touching the main bus. Works surprisingly well tho, especially due to a healthy mix of drones.
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May 2, 2017 20:03
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I have a horrifying mess of a spaghetti base with four belts poking out at top in a kind of root of a bus that is completely untouched by anything.
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May 2, 2017 20:14
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Jabor posted:The problem with not putting plastic on the bus is that now you have to put coal on the bus to actually make the plastic where you're going to use it, so if you were previously skipping coal you don't really gain anything... Not really? Like I said, almost everything that needs coal also needs items from your oil products, which already has coal for plastic production, and maybe coal liquifaction. If you build your factory with oil products being created near the bus, just have a separate belt or four of coal going to that area directly from the train depot and you don't need to put plastic or coal on the bus.
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May 2, 2017 20:15
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Onean posted:Not really? Like I said, almost everything that needs coal also needs items from your oil products, which already has coal for plastic production, and maybe coal liquifaction. If you build your factory with oil products being created near the bus, just have a separate belt or four of coal going to that area directly from the train depot and you don't need to put plastic or coal on the bus. Where are you building red circuits, then?
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May 2, 2017 20:18
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Here's my current game. I start out with the best intentions and bus but it sort of devolves into spaghetti as I have to shuffle one thing to another place. Next time I'll try and build things closer together. with some planning it should be possible to map out everything the sciences require and compact them into the minimum amount of dual-material ofshoot belts instead of doing it ad-hoc. I'm pretty sure red belts with iron/gear, copper/steel, greencircuit/redcircuit, pipe/brick are enough to make everything up to purple. Add in a battery/speed module line and you've got high tech. Just need to figure out what goes where. Bhodi fucked around with this message at 20:32 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 20:25
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Dr. Stab posted:Where are you building red circuits, then? When I set up a new factory after moving to a new area, circuits are the first thing I make off the bus. So, right by my oil production.
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May 2, 2017 20:37
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seravid posted:Every spaghetti is its own thing, though, created on the fly as the factory develops. Buses are pre-made, with fixed branches (right/left, up/down) and lanes of plates and circuits and whatever often stretching ahead in the distance, way beyond the current needs of the factory. I probably sounded more defensive than I intended. I guess there's a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" element to it. I find most spaghetti factories fairly similar because, even if they're not identical, their on-the-fly nature tends to be governed by the same or similar needs in the same or similar order so they're unique in the way snowflakes are unique... different if you look close enough, but essentially the same thing. I've made several, but they don't really hold any appeal any more because they're a known quantity. I like medium sized and mid game factories (and will usually start a new one before I launch a rocket) and planning how they'll expand and where I can fit expandable columns of smelters and the logistics of moving it around by belts etc. I like the look of some really large scale stuff people do, but I don't have the time for it. I don't have a problem with lanes of plates stretching off into the distance, it's definitely not optimal though. On this run through I've been experimenting with circuits and belts a lot on the bus, which is new for me, which is leading to a lot of resource build up. In summary: it's all good.
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May 2, 2017 21:29
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This is my current game and bus. I just set up yellow tech and I don't actually have bots operating in my factory yet, I just have a handful for a personal roboport. This is after like three hours of tidying up my main factory, expanding red chip construction, widening the belt, and just making it a little more organized. It's not the most efficient use of my time maybe but it's fun for me.  Maybe there are more efficient ways to provide intermediate materials to various things but man, that giant column of colors and moving parts is extremely satisfying for me. 
RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 21:32 on May 2, 2017 |
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May 2, 2017 21:30
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Collateral Damage posted:(drawn up in sandbox for demonstration purposes) This right here, this is me. Minus the hazard concrete, I really only use that at train crossings and gates to natural (unsafe) ground.
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May 2, 2017 21:33
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I'm digging the lack of gaps in the bus and the resulting splitter/underground spaghetti that creates.
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May 2, 2017 21:35
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So... because my job is a little boring sometimes and we were discussing the subject earlier in Discord, I decided to do some math about train station capacity, as far as bots vs. belts for loading the station up and having maximum throughput. As things were set up previously, the train station had two (fully-saturated) red belts interfacing with each of the train's cars via stack inserters + chests, resulting in the train station having throughput equal to 2 red belts per train car. I am of the opinion that bots would let this scale even higher but wasn't 100% certain, so I decided to go for math. Assuming you're at the point where the goon multiplayer map is, the stack inserters we were using are up to 12 items per grab. According to what I could find, the infographics in the big 0.14 dump say that a stack inserter makes 2.303 full cycles (grab + drop) per second. Accounting for stack size 12, that means each stack inserter is capable of moving 27.636 items per second. If you're looking at blue belts (40 items per second throughput - we weren't using them yet, but we should be soon enough, assuming it hasn't already been changed over while I have not been on), that means either 2 inserters per belt (~55 items/second capacity, leaving 15 "potential" items ungrabbed) or 1 inserter per belt (27.6 items/second capacity, leaving 13/second on the belt). This still means either weird belt shenanigans to get 12 blue belts to the side of the train car or moderate belt shenanigans to get a total of 6 (3 per side means 2 inserters per belt). On the other hand, you can effectively have as many bots as you damned well please transporting items into the station (given that you are willing to manufacture them and place enough roboports to handle charging them); in this case, the stack inserters loading the trains can go as fast as they possibly can, which means 12 inserters per train car at 27.636/second, which is about 331 items/second loading speed. By removing belts from the feeding side, this new loading station setup can handle slightly more than 8 blue belts' worth of materials throughput per cargo car (40 items/blue belt) in the train. Does all of this make sense or am I missing a key detail along the way? I honestly don't care how long it takes a train to load in and of itself, it's only total throughput that matters. An extra train on the line can alleviate slowdowns while waiting, it's more the amount of material that can be put THROUGH the station that I'm concerned about.
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May 2, 2017 21:42
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Does anyone else bus their liquid oil products?
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May 2, 2017 21:43
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Marxalot posted:Does anyone else bus their liquid oil products? All I can say to this is YIKES but in the back of my mind I'm thinking..."that could work..."
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May 2, 2017 22:01
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It's all about four saturated blue belts of steam
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May 2, 2017 22:22
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Xerophyte posted:Someone made an automated shuttle train: What does this do?
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May 2, 2017 22:33
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KillHour posted:What does this do? You stick it at a faraway outpost. When you walk up to the gate, it detects you, and the light changes to green when the shuttle has been called "it takes around 2 seconds for it to confirm you're actually waiting for a shuttle". Then it sends a train to you and you can do something else for a little bit then get back to the main base.
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May 2, 2017 22:42
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KillHour posted:What does this do? Stand on the yellow concrete and a shuttle will come. It's a taxi stop, essentially.
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May 2, 2017 22:44
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KillHour posted:What does this do? It looks like it uses gates to sense whether the player is on the concrete pad for a couple seconds, then calls a train to come pick you up and take you back to your main base. Pretty neat! The Imgur link has more info.
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May 2, 2017 22:44
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scamtank posted:Hey uh GotLag, quick Q: Oh, must have forgotten to define the light when remaking it with the new graphics. Will fix tonight.
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May 2, 2017 22:46
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Marxalot posted:Does anyone else bus their liquid oil products? I bus petroleum. More direct than busing both plastic and sulphur. Used to bus lubricant too but barrelling is much more convenient for that.
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May 2, 2017 22:56
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I bus because I'm a cargo culting idiot piece of poo poo who doesn't know anything, so I always end up underestimating how wide said bus needs to be and tearing everything down to rebuild.
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May 2, 2017 22:56
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Gravy Jones posted:I'm digging the lack of gaps in the bus and the resulting splitter/underground spaghetti that creates. I love it too. Going to use it for my next main bus.
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May 2, 2017 22:57
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My first couple of buses looked like that, but it ends up being super annoying to add outputs because of all the work required.
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May 2, 2017 23:03
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Loopoo posted:You stick it at a faraway outpost. When you walk up to the gate, it detects you, and the light changes to green when the shuttle has been called "it takes around 2 seconds for it to confirm you're actually waiting for a shuttle". Then it sends a train to you and you can do something else for a little bit then get back to the main base. Speaking of faraway outposts, still waiting on those blueprint strings for rails.
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May 2, 2017 23:10
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Solid Poopsnake posted:Speaking of faraway outposts, still waiting on those blueprint strings for rails. Will do it now, buddy.
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May 2, 2017 23:33
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