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Are you calling the Confederacy the revolutionaries? Revolutionaries change the status quo.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:21
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KVeezy3 posted:Progress has always been a history of struggle, that will never change. It's cute that people here who reject liberalism are being painted as bloodthirsty cowards though, as if perpetuating liberalism doesn't result in violence. Progress is struggle, so let’s dive headfirst into horrible, bloody, violent revolution! Bring me the head of Barron Trump! Like, seriously, that’s Killmonger’s plan. And you’re advocating for it hard. I don’t care if you reject liberalism or whatever, that’s not what’s making me think you’re a bloodthirsty coward, it’s because you’re stridently defending the targeted murder of children.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:21
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KVeezy3 posted:Are you calling the Confederacy the revolutionaries? Revolutionaries change the status quo. They were the ones attempting to secede. By definition they were the insurrectionists.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:22
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garycoleisgod posted:Yes,the violence would be horrible and cost untold innocent lives. The more violent a revolution gets, the more likely it is to fail at it's proclaimed ideological aims. The aforementioned French revolution failed because of it's descent into retalitory violence and purges, while the mild American revolution succeeded because it's was a relatively peacefull transition.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:23
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YOLOsubmarine posted:America has had two violent revolutions, the outcomes of which are remembered pretty fondly. Most modern countries were founded by extremists of some sort or another. I feel like you're forgetting one... something about, like, panthers or something? I don't know, it's not springing to mind.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:23
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Charlz Guybon posted:Hey, T'Challa was technically correct. He neither died nor yielded, thus the challange that Killmonger brought forth was still ongoing and T'Challa was still the legal King. T’Challa received outside help twice. He’d have been dead twice over if the rules were followed.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:23
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Nodosaur posted:They were the ones attempting to secede. By definition they were the insurrectionists. Insurrectionists, yes. But they were rebelling to protect the status quo.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:25
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XboxPants posted:I feel like you're forgetting one... something about, like, panthers or something? I don't know, it's not springing to mind. It wasn’t an exhaustive list, just an argument against the notion that history isn’t kind to revolution.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:27
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XboxPants posted:I feel like you're forgetting one... something about, like, panthers or something? I don't know, it's not springing to mind. There are quite a lot more violent insurrections in american history that are either never talked about, revised to fit the dominant narrative or whose events are actively suppressed.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:28
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YOLOsubmarine posted:America has had two violent revolutions, the outcomes of which are remembered pretty fondly. Most modern countries were founded by extremists of some sort or another. The military arms of then are nothing compared to the military arms of now and the US benefited heavily from the Atlantic separation from Europe as it does to this day. If Britain were on the same continent it would’ve been a vastly different story.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:29
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What if MLK had vibranium Kalashnikovs
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Mar 2, 2018 04:31
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Phylodox posted:Progress is struggle, so let’s dive headfirst into horrible, bloody, violent revolution! Bring me the head of Barron Trump! It's absurd that this reactionary movie has warped your mind into thinking that those are the only two choices we have.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:31
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The problem with revolutions is that it's sort of violent and continues the cycle of oppression and the victims eventually sort of have a grudge. The further problem is that over time it feasts on itself to consume and creates a different caste/class system and then those in power seek to hold and maintain it and struggle with change. It's also corruptible. The key is to be inclusive and a different sort of revolution that lets what's being revolted against or the downtrodden have a voice or know they're not losing. It's a more peaceful insurrection. The key is to be fluid and adapt and anticipate change, welcome it, and guide things and fellow man. There needs to be a compassionate revolution or some poo poo. Real change requires either Act of God, Violence, or Hard work and influence and constant work over generations through peaceful means. It depends on how long you're willing to work and how capable you are of implementing your plans. Time and patience with a capable genuinely good natured and well intentioned hand.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:31
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TheKingofSprings posted:The military arms of then are nothing compared to the military arms of now and the US benefited heavily from the Atlantic separation from Europe as it does to this day. If Britain were on the same continent it would’ve been a vastly different story. Just like how easy it was for them to subdue Scotland! :-D
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Mar 2, 2018 04:34
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KVeezy3 posted:It's absurd that this reactionary movie has warped your mind into thinking that those are the only two choices we have. I absolutely don’t think there are only two choices, but the kind of revolution you’re shilling for removes all but one.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:34
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Greece, Rome, America, that sort of thing lasts a longer time because it allows the conquered to become citizens and have a voice in the process. Or at least that's the idea. If you're going to have a revolution, it can't be one that oppresses or victimizes constantly and separates the haves from the have nots. Killmonger's revolution would fail and is doomed, it is false. T'Challa's is more even tempered.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:36
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In the civil rights movement, violence and the threat of violence along with hard work and effort put in over a decade helped result in the gains that occurred. It’s not a dichotomy and the two applied appropriately at the right time can have a better result than either would individually but I’m a little wary about whether any of the groups using violence during that time were of the “burn it the gently caress down” mentality.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:36
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TheKingofSprings posted:In the civil rights movement, violence and the threat of violence along with hard work and effort put in over a decade helped result in the gains that occurred. It’s not a dichotomy and the two applied appropriately at the right time can have a better result than either would individually but I’m a little wary about whether any of the groups using violence during that time were of the “burn it the gently caress down” mentality. Right. Both had a play. The threat of a violent revolution made the powers that be want to settle with the more peaceful hand. "Speak softly but carry a big stick." Now more than ever, the U.S. needs a Teddy Roosevelt.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:37
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Phylodox posted:I absolutely don’t think there are only two choices, but the kind of revolution you’re shilling for removes all but one. I haven't advocated for anything, but feel free to keep telling me that I'm thirsty for child blood.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:38
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Gatts posted:The problem with revolutions is that it's sort of violent and continues the cycle of oppression and the victims eventually sort of have a grudge. The further problem is that over time it feasts on itself to consume and creates a different caste/class system and then those in power seek to hold and maintain it and struggle with change. It's also corruptible. The key is to be inclusive and a different sort of revolution that lets what's being revolted against or the downtrodden have a voice or know they're not losing. It's a more peaceful insurrection. The key is to be fluid and adapt and anticipate change, welcome it, and guide things and fellow man. There needs to be a compassionate revolution or some poo poo. Somewhat related to this, while making Ross a member of the CIA is a definite misstep, I feel like his role in the narrative is meant to say that there is room at the table for white people who want to be a part of the solution to inequality. Even if they were previously part of the problem. Earning a spot at the table is predicated on their ability to shut up, listen, and to help only when and how they are asked to do so.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:40
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Gatts posted:Right. Both had a play. The threat of a violent revolution made the powers that be want to settle with the more peaceful hand. "Speak softly but carry a big stick." how about a US fueled anti-revolution squad with Warmachine, Captain America and a staff of Hydra influenced counter-intelligence agents that can unleash Hulk on a third world countries who threaten American hegemony.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:43
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Gatts posted:Greece, Rome, America, that sort of thing lasts a longer time because it allows the conquered to become citizens and have a voice in the process. Or at least that's the idea. If you're going to have a revolution, it can't be one that oppresses or victimizes constantly and separates the haves from the have nots. Killmonger's revolution would fail and is doomed, it is false. T'Challa's is more even tempered. Greece didn't do this and it's the primary reason they got rolled over by the Romans.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:43
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KVeezy3 posted:I haven't advocated for anything, but feel free to keep telling me that I'm thirsty for child blood. Then what are you advocating here? Because this is the discussion we’re having; open war versus more moderate means. You thumb your nose at outreach centres and education and the like as ineffectual liberal nonsense, so what’s your answer?
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Mar 2, 2018 04:44
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Phylodox posted:Then what are you advocating here? Because this is the discussion we’re having; open war versus more moderate means. You thumb your nose at outreach centres and education and the like as ineffectual liberal nonsense, so what’s your answer? This is not the discussion we're having, that is the discussion the movie Black Panther is having. I'm sure climate catastrophe will wait while we make moderate progress though.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:49
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Charlz Guybon posted:Greece didn't do this and it's the primary reason they got rolled over by the Romans. Thanks for correcting. My bad.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:49
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KVeezy3 posted:This is not the discussion we're having, that is the discussion the movie Black Panther is having. I'm sure climate catastrophe will wait while we make moderate progress though. This is the Black Panther thread. We’re talking about Black Panther. Not fuckin’ climate change or whatever. Debate and Discussion is over that way.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:51
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Either way, my point is that there are many historical revolutions not driven by a desire for positive change, where the result failed to result in it before corruption or oppression resurfaced, or which left themselves open to be twisted into allowing or thriving on inequality.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:57
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Phylodox posted:This is the Black Panther thread. We’re talking about Black Panther. Not fuckin’ climate change or whatever. Debate and Discussion is over that way. The two options presented in Black Panther, the movie we are discussing in this thread, are "outreach centers and liberal aid" or "black people murder white people and their whole families with advanced weapons and then swear fealty to a man who calls himself Kilmonger." It's a stupid false choice. The lament is that this is what the movie presents, that it lacks the imagination to provide anything more than a comforting reaffirmation of the same boring tropes about how education and more dialogue will fix things.
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Mar 2, 2018 04:58
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YOLOsubmarine posted:It's a stupid false choice. The lament is that this is what the movie presents, that it lacks the imagination to provide anything more than a comforting reaffirmation of the same boring tropes about how education and more dialogue will fix things. I mean, education and dialogue help, but okay, what should T’Challa have done?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:08
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The two options presented in Black Panther, the movie we are discussing in this thread, are "outreach centers and liberal aid" or "black people murder white people and their whole families with advanced weapons and then swear fealty to a man who calls himself Kilmonger." It's a stupid false choice. The lament is that this is what the movie presents, that it lacks the imagination to provide anything more than a comforting reaffirmation of the same boring tropes about how education and more dialogue will fix things. This is what I was trying to say but better written and more concise. The answer I suggest is the end of capitalism.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:28
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garycoleisgod posted:The answer I suggest is the end of capitalism. And how's T'Challa gonna just do that? In a 2.5 hour movie? And how would that even really fix anything?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:29
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Phylodox posted:I mean, education and dialogue help, but okay, what should T’Challa have done? There’s a wide breadth of possible options between “outreach center” and “kill all white people and bow to me,” and any of those would have been better than what got. They could have even taken a page from the actual Black Panther party and provided Wakandan weapons to black men in America to protect themselves against racist cops. Or use their network of spies to organize and provide weapons to grass roots self defense or revolutionary movements around the world. Or spend his time in America hunting down and beating up racist and reactionary cops and politicians. Basically woke Batman. Or even just throw the CIA dude out on his rear end and use his UN speech denounce western democracies as shams built on colonialism and systemic oppression and impress upon them their need to fix poo poo now or Wakanda will use its magical space metal to start fixing them itself. Oh, and also don’t give them any loving technology.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:32
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garycoleisgod posted:This is what I was trying to say but better written and more concise. Ok but what does that actually look like at a practical level? T'Challa picks up a phone and yells "Legalize communism, dude!!" into it? What actual action do you want him to take?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:33
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Phylodox posted:And how's T'Challa gonna just do that? In a 2.5 hour movie?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:33
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Phylodox posted:I mean, education and dialogue help, but okay, Get outta here with that poo poo. It's not like community organising ever lead to a historically racist country electing it's first black president or anything.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:34
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YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s a wide breadth of possible options between “outreach center” and “kill all white people and bow to me,” and any of those would have been better than what got. These are all just basically variations on Killmonger's plan. quote:Or even just throw the CIA dude out on his rear end and use his UN speech denounce western democracies as shams built on colonialism and systemic oppression and impress upon them their need to fix poo poo now or Wakanda will use its magical space metal to start fixing them itself. Oh, and also don’t give them any loving technology. And this is basically holding the world hostage. These don't seem like particularly efficient or workable solutions at all. They mostly seem like ways for angry people to experience catharsis which, okay, that's good in the short term, won't really solve anything in the long term.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:35
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Yeah I suppose having a revolution in a film is pretty out there. Hey, what's this list of sci-fi films doing here? Elysium, Mad Max: Fury Road, Flash Gordon (1980), Conan the Destroyer, The Matrix Reloaded, Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi, V for Vendetta, Snowpiercer, Demolition Man, Tank Girl, Willow, Thor: Ragnarok ? If change can't happen in our fiction, what chance in real life?
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Mar 2, 2018 05:42
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YOLOsubmarine posted:There’s a wide breadth of possible options between “outreach center” and “kill all white people and bow to me,” and any of those would have been better than what got. Supplying advanced arms to rebels - what could go wrong? I'm sure those weapons will never be stolen by the government and turned against the people they are meant to protect.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:43
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garycoleisgod posted:Yeah I suppose having a revolution in a film is pretty out there. Hey, what's this list of sci-fi films doing here? Elysium, Mad Max: Fury Road, Flash Gordon (1980), Conan the Destroyer, The Matrix Reloaded, Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi, V for Vendetta, Snowpiercer, Demolition Man, Tank Girl, Willow, Thor: Ragnarok ? I mean...those all present incredibly simple solutions, too. Most of them involve killing some figurehead, after which the evil empire crumbles. The real world is a lot more complicated. You're not gonna save it with some flashy revolution. If you kill Donald Trump, they don't just automatically flip the switch to "COMMUNISM". Is that how you wanted Black Panther to handle it? I'd much rather they presented change as a slow, gradual process involving hard work and perseverence.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:47
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Would it have been so hard to make a compelling movie where the cia is the villain, with their weapon being Erik? Then, in a show of unity, tchalla and erik triumph over outside forces seeking to exploit wakanda, each taking from each other the elements they were individually lacking and unveiling a wakanda well equipped and well informed enough to present a counter to exploitative forces? The movie we got instead feels like concessions were made, and it’s a shame. Ending on pan-human brotherhood is obviously the right message, but feels lacking given uh, everything we see in the world.
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Mar 2, 2018 05:57
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