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The legion is pretty annoying because their goals and motivations make almost no sense when you start to think about it, and the whole thing rests on a cult of personality, but it never acknowledges how hosed the legion would be without ceaser. Fallout 2 is a much much bigger version of fallout one there's way more stuff in every way, personally I find it detrimental to the whole experience, but in terms of gameplay I think it'd be much harder to get stuck, and there's a bunch of UI and game play improvements to make the whole thing smoother
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Mar 3, 2018 12:34
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Gaius Marius posted:The legion is pretty annoying because their goals and motivations make almost no sense when you start to think about it, and the whole thing rests on a cult of personality, but it never acknowledges how hosed the legion would be without ceaser. Are you saying the Legion itself doesn't acknowledge that or the game doesn't?
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Mar 3, 2018 12:39
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i've run across three npcs saying yeah the legion would fall apart without caesar and i'm only about 1/3 of the way through the main campaign
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Mar 3, 2018 12:52
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Randaconda posted:Fallout 4 would have been improved by Preston being replaced by Ulysses. This would have been so good, especially if you could sneak into Ulysses' house and read holotapes talking about unique settlers you recruit. E: and yeah, every intelligent character (including Caesar himself) knows that the Legion is unsustainable without a capable replacement for Caesar. Thats why he wants to conquer the NCR before he dies; he wants that refined republic appeal but loathes the old-world corruption that has already taken root. Of course, Caesar hasn't thought through how he'd merge the two, and obviously underestimated the growth rate of his cancer. He's a somewhat tragic villain because he knows his legion is hosed up, but has justified it as a means to an end (that he will never achieve in time, barring an unnaturally high LUK and INT stat). Also, Vulpes Inculta is one of five named characters with 'very evil' karma, alongside Cook-Cook (rapist pyromaniac), Mortimer (cannibal aristocrat), Duke (storyless Fiends leader), and Phillipe (traumatized abusive cannibal chef), if you want a direct-from-creators "This is a Bad Man" statement. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 13:03
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The Legion does hosed up things to women but it also does hosed up things to men, all members of the Legion are essentially slaves but they are indoctrinated to think that their lives are cool and good. They are very rude but also very cool and iconic. Ave, true to Caesar.
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Mar 3, 2018 13:13
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If you sell Arcade into slavery so he can act as Caesar's live-in doctor you get a good microcosm of Caesar in a single slide; he's delighted to finally have someone else of high intellect and uncorrupted integrity 'within the Legion', bonds with him over several months engaging in what he saw as compelling debate and discourse, then loses him when he is left alone with a scalpel and slits his wrists to escape the Legion , leaving Caesar alone again with his nation of better-than-raiders. I myself haven't stomached playing a Legion run, just wiki'd and watched vids, but I'd argue that it's one of the more complex routes in the game moral and theme-wise.
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Mar 3, 2018 13:24
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Neurolimal posted:If you sell Arcade into slavery so he can act as Caesar's live-in doctor you get a good microcosm of Caesar in a single slide; he's delighted to finally have someone else of high intellect and uncorrupted integrity 'within the Legion', bonds with him over several months engaging in what he saw as compelling debate and discourse, then loses him when he is left alone with a scalpel and slits his wrists to escape the Legion , leaving Caesar alone again with his nation of better-than-raiders. He disembowels himself in the same way Cato did, "unwilling to live in a world led by Caesar and refusing even implicitly to grant Caesar the power to pardon him" which is extremely badass.
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Mar 3, 2018 13:27
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On the topic of New Vegas the multiple ammo system was a bit redundant because there was no actual choice. Each weapon had an optimal ammo and it was very easy to get or make. They tried to have a split between armour piercing and hollow point ammo except hollow point only worked better on targets with little to no DT and those targets got vaporized by AP ammo weapons anyway. Then you had the shotgun slugs which allowed the riot shotgun to headshot an enemy at sniper ranges. The riot shotgun was OP but I do miss having a slug thrower weapon. FO4 has no equivalent.
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Mar 3, 2018 13:30
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Pwnstar posted:He disembowels himself in the same way Cato did, "unwilling to live in a world led by Caesar and refusing even implicitly to grant Caesar the power to pardon him" which is extremely badass. that is an extremely cool moral statement showing both rationality and strength of will
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Mar 3, 2018 13:34
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Yeah, FO4 is definitely an improvement in terms of gameplay, which is a part of why people are hopeful for the New Vegas port mod development; it would be great to have New Vegas's story, melee (that most people never actually realized existed), and perk system with FO4's gunplay. Although I'd argue 3's content would work better with 4 just because it's got the same "should I put on the Mass Murder costume or the Idiot Errand Boy costume" amusement park feel that can be fun to jump into now and then.
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Mar 3, 2018 13:37
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Meanwhile I found a plasma shotgun so I guess I won the game again. I do need a proper shotgun but I never liked pew pew energy weapons.
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Mar 3, 2018 14:48
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Katt posted:Meanwhile I found a plasma shotgun so I guess I won the game again. I do need a proper shotgun but I never liked pew pew energy weapons. a "proper shotgun" is an explosive combat shotgun or a neverending double barrel. Quite a lot of fun.
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Mar 3, 2018 15:17
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Katt posted:Am I the only person who thinks Fallout 4 is superior to New Vegas in almost every way? Running into a place and going crazy and gunning people down was never really a reason I was interested in the Fallout games-video games are replete with shooters. I would argue that its a weakness if you could go to a settlement, go nuts, and then come back a few days later if nothing happened, since choice and consequence is core to RPG design. With that said, better gameplay is a better thing in pretty much every circumstance. It's good that Fallout 4 has better shooter gameplay, but it stripped out so much else of what makes Fallout a fun and unique series that I still see it a step back. In a later post you mentioned being able to play more character types in Fallout 4, but I found the character types far more narrow. The voiced protaganist as an obvious example of how the protagonists personality and motivations are more limited in Fallout 4. But the stripped down character leveling system and stripped down quest design all make for a much "flatter" experience in Fallout 4. Like, I enjoy GTA and Saint's Row. But I play for them different reasons than I play Fallout, and Fallout 4 abandoned most of the features that make Fallout a unique and fun series.
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Mar 3, 2018 16:14
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And return later to do it again if I like.
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Agreed. Fallout 4 feels much more like Borderlands: A Fallout Story than an evolution from Fallout 3/New Vegas. They also focused way too much on junk collecting and settlement building and if you're not into that (I'm not at all) then there's not a whole lot left to hold your interest.
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Mar 3, 2018 16:45
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The amount if small idiosyncrasies Bethesda stripped out of FO4 to accommodate better gunplay makes me feel like it was a poor tradeoff. Mechanically, having holstered guns appear on your character model accomplished nothing in 3 and Vegas, but it was a nice thing to have anyways. There's also something in how the PC moves in fallout 4 that feels somehow worse than Vegas. Bethesda still doesn't know how people actually walk and animate do they?
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Mar 3, 2018 16:49
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Fallout 4 cut out all the roleplaying to focus on gunplay yet they didn't make the gunplay all that good. Game is pointless and I hate it.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:02
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Berke Negri posted:I definitely know countless friends that in games like KOTOR1/2 will go dark side for the kicks of it but can probably count on one hand with fingers to spare people I know (or admitted to) going full Legion in FNV, they're really so despicable its hard to stomach them Yeah usually I'll do the good guy/light side run in a game first then do a bad guy run. In the case of Fallout 1 and 2 the last time I played it was a "I will murder literally everything" run. In 2 I beat the game without ever equipping a weapon on that one; my guy just punched the world to death. Despite all of that I never even started the Legion quest line once. I debate doing it sometimes just for the cheevo but even then I'm like "gently caress the Legion. Seriously. gently caress. The. Legion."
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Mar 3, 2018 17:09
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I actually did do a Legion run, and if you can ignore the morals, it's really a very fun and fresh take on the game if you play a Frumentarii. Spend the whole game sabotaging the NCR, loving up their quests, do Armed for Bear and all without being detected.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:13
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corn in the bible posted:Fallout 4 cut out all the roleplaying to focus on gunplay yet they didn't make the gunplay all that good. Game is pointless and I hate it. This is a gross misrepresentation of Bethesda's attitude to the series. They did not cut out all the roleplaying to focus on gunplay. They cut out all the roleplaying to focus on a fully-voiced main character.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:19
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It's fun to do a Legion run if only for the endgame quests. Killing the president is fun (IN THIS FICTIONAL VIDEO GAME) and you get some cool dialogue with Lanius at the end. Of course the game doesn't really expect you to side with the Legion, to the point that even if you finish Lonesome Road with high Legion rep Ulysses will tell you how to defeat Lanius, because obviously you're not going to be joining him
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Mar 3, 2018 17:22
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2house2fly posted:It's fun to do a Legion run if only for the endgame quests. Killing the president is fun (IN THIS FICTIONAL VIDEO GAME) and you get some cool dialogue with Lanius at the end. Of course the game doesn't really expect you to side with the Legion, to the point that even if you finish Lonesome Road with high Legion rep Ulysses will tell you how to defeat Lanius, because obviously you're not going to be joining him I figure that's likely because Ulysses knows Lanius and is saying that you'll probably end up fighting him one way or another. Lanius is a hideous monster and somebody will have to put him down for the Legion to survive when Caesar dies. I figure in that case Ulysses just figures it would be the Courier because who the gently caress else could do it? Especially after surviving the Divide.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:26
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Byzantine posted:I actually did do a Legion run, and if you can ignore the morals, it's really a very fun and fresh take on the game if you play a Frumentarii. Spend the whole game sabotaging the NCR, loving up their quests, do Armed for Bear and all without being detected. Like besides bombing a few NCR targets and selling guns to the legion you dont even need to do much horrifying things in a legion run. I gained favor with the legion by taking dog tags from dead NCR troops and pick pocketing so i had good rep with NCR too. Of course youre missing out on content if you act all goody two shoes. In my legion run i made sure to get all the deaths or bad endings for most of the companions. Cass got sold out to the van graffs, Boone i fed to cannibals since he didnt have a specific way to kill him, Arcade got sold to slavery after he gave me the power armor, no idea what i did to Veronica, might have just left her alive since i figured thats the worst thing to do to her after i nuked her home. Raul, Lily rex and ED-E on the other hand got their good endings because they didnt hate the legion.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:33
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I figure in that case Ulysses just figures it would be the Courier because who the gently caress else could do it? Especially after surviving the Divide. Well, the Lone Wanderer could probably do it at the cost of their life, or they could let the Courier do it for them while Ron Perlman admonishes the wanderer for cowardice. In terms of both objective and subjective outcomes, which fallout protagonist has had the largest impact on the Wasteland?
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Mar 3, 2018 17:38
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Arcsquad12 posted:In terms of both objective and subjective outcomes, which fallout protagonist has had the largest impact on the Wasteland? The Vault Dweller for saving Tandi.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:39
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corn in the bible posted:Fallout 4 cut out all the roleplaying to focus on gunplay yet they didn't make the gunplay all that good. Game is pointless and I hate it. What story is left also pulls in the completely opposite direction of the gameplay by (weakly) attempting to drive you down a linear narrative of trying to find your kid, while literally every other system in the game is about loving around wasting time doing meaningless chores for assholes or building hovels for your vassals. Byzantine posted:The Vault Dweller for saving Tandi. It's either this, or the Chosen One for stopping the Enclave's "Apocalypse 2: Electric Boogaloo" plan to use FEV to wipe the entire world clean of everyone but themselves and start over AGAIN. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 17:39
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Byzantine posted:The Vault Dweller for saving Tandi. I suppose the entire fate of humanity does outweigh the fate of broken national systems or whether or not Washington DC has clean water.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:46
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Keeshhound posted:What story is left also pulls in the completely opposite direction of the gameplay by (weakly) attempting to drive you down a linear narrative of trying to find your kid, while literally every other system in the game is about loving around wasting time doing meaningless chores for assholes or building hovels for your vassals. The Lone Wanderer also did the latter
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Mar 3, 2018 17:50
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Except the Lone Wanderer would have been better off poisoning DC so nobody would have to live there anymore.
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Mar 3, 2018 17:54
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corn in the bible posted:The Lone Wanderer also did the latter That one was localized to only the area affected by the Jefferson Monument purifier (by the way, thanks for reminding me that Bethesda couldn't think of anything better than a bad rehash of Fallout 2's plot for 3). In 2 the Enclave's plan was "disburse our modified FEV strain into the jet streams so it kills the entire planet and leaves us to inherit it." I still feel that upping the stakes that far probably wasn't necessary for the story they were telling in 2, but it also felt pulpy in a fun way, so it doesn't really bother me. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 17:56
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I like how the Enclave has its own civil war in 3 - Eden wants to continue the old plan from 2, while Autumn wants to have Project Purity working properly and use it to gather wastelanders to the Enclave as an actual revival of the United States government.
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Mar 3, 2018 18:12
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If we accept Tactics as canon (its not that bad guys!) Then there existed mutants smart enough to be able to try to find a solution to mutant sterility, and with how long-lived mutants are it's entirely possible that they might have found such a solution before dying out. Lou Tenant/Attis might have found the cure in Vault-Tec's "lol gently caress you we're not going in our own test hovels" personal vault, he didn't survive his cronenberging long enough to make gently caress. So I wouldn't say V Dweller necessarily saved the wasteland so much as avoided making green and blue the dominant skin colors.
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Mar 3, 2018 18:18
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Neurolimal posted:If we accept Tactics as canon (its not that bad guys!) Then there existed mutants smart enough to be able to try to find a solution to mutant sterility, and with how long-lived mutants are it's entirely possible that they might have found such a solution before dying out. You don't even need to accept Tactics as canon for a super mutant that cured super mutantry, that's one of the more questionable plot points in F4.
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Mar 3, 2018 18:24
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Neurolimal posted:If we accept Tactics as canon (its not that bad guys!) Then there existed mutants smart enough to be able to try to find a solution to mutant sterility, and with how long-lived mutants are it's entirely possible that they might have found such a solution before dying out. There's actually multiple kinds of mutants; one of the reasons that most FEV mutants were stupid was because of some kind of contamination. It's never been explicitly stated what that was beyond theories. FEV does some weird poo poo depending on a lot of factors, hence Harold existing. He isn't a ghoul; he's a unique FEV mutant. In any event that's why the Lieutenant wants your vault and would love to dip you in 1. "Prime normals" are those that haven't been exposed to FEV, don't have radiation damage, and haven't been ravaged by the wasteland. Generally only vault dwellers have that set of characteristics. Those people, when dipped, actually do become more intelligent and better than humans in literally every way; hence Lou being very intelligent. Fallout 2 touched on that by having Marcus not be totally braindead. You also see that in the Nightkin overall in later games. I feel like the later games ultimately forgot that though the east coast mutants were ultimately made in inferior ways. The Institute wasn't using prime normals though Virgil was a different thing; the game never does bother really explaining why Institute or Enclave mutants are so mentally flawed. Fallout 1 actually did explain that and this was the reason that most super mutants in 1 and 2 were not bright. Maybe it's just lovely strains of FEV or the process being different; when Mariposa gets blown to bits so much of what the Master's army did was lost. Tactics actually played with that by having a few mutants that were able to properly think tactically and the scientists that were trying to solve the mutant sterility problem. Granted 2 also touched on that with Marcus. Granted in 1 the Master only asks a female if any of them have given birth; it would make sense in a way if male mutants could start producing sperm and impregnate regular humans but female mutants couldn't grow a baby because FEV would screw it up. Granted it would also make sense if that was just a joke or if Marcus only thought he could get a woman pregnant. Of course later games seem to hint that super mutants lose all of their sexual characteristics which doesn't jive with the first two games. Super mutants in the first two games were actually an interesting, evolving, and legitimately scary enemy. They all had big guns and would gently caress you up if you didn't have good gear and high levels. They were nasty. Now in Fallout 4 they're faceless, stupid mooks with pipe rifles that you can take out by the dozen. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 18:25
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I feel like a lot of the reason people avoid Legion runs is also that they just don't have any real characters besides Caesar and maybe Lanius, who you don't even see until the endgame. Every member is very Serious and with Serious Proper Speech, so everyone's really boring to talk to.
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Mar 3, 2018 18:29
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While true, I think Obsidian deserves credit where due; all the way back to Planescape they've managed to make evil paths that are hard to follow through on even in "lol im loving around" runs. Smh if you shoved morte back in the torture pillar
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Mar 3, 2018 18:36
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Katt posted:Meanwhile I found a plasma shotgun so I guess I won the game again. I do need a proper shotgun but I never liked pew pew energy weapons. Go to libertalia and sneaky sneaky to the top for Les Fusil. Or go to Covenant and buy Justice. Both are pretty good. JUST MAKING CHILI fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 18:40
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Byzantine posted:I like how the Enclave has its own civil war in 3 - Eden wants to continue the old plan from 2, while Autumn wants to have Project Purity working properly and use it to gather wastelanders to the Enclave as an actual revival of the United States government. And then if you give Autumn the right code he blows your head off and you have to reload a save. Wolfsheim posted:You don't even need to accept Tactics as canon for a super mutant that cured super mutantry, that's one of the more questionable plot points in F4. Virgil is at least in line with the whole "pure humans become smart super mutants" I could have done without him perfectly curing himself in a week with no side effects. I'd rather you just came back after a week to see the results and found that he had either died on the bed, exploded into a bloody mess on the bed or been turned into a Centaur that wrecked the whole place and destroyed all machinery and attacks you. Though that would have required them to make a FO4 version of the Centaur I suppose. Katt fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Mar 3, 2018 |
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Mar 3, 2018 18:41
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Neurolimal posted:While true, I think Obsidian deserves credit where due; all the way back to Planescape they've managed to make evil paths that are hard to follow through on even in "lol im loving around" runs. I don't know. Obsidian games usually have something to take the edge of being an evil character, to lighten things up a bit. I think Planescape has the least enjoyable evil options ever though, simply because to enjoy playing the game like that you have to be a legitimate sociopath. Tyranny is good too for making you question if you're really as good a person as you like to think you are.
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Mar 3, 2018 19:01
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Yeah, I tried playing an evil route in Planescape once. I think I got to the Lower Ward before I went "I'm not even having fun pretending to be this much of a dick"
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Mar 3, 2018 19:19
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Neurolimal posted:
If The Master put a little more thought into it, it's really not hard to work out a plan where instead of raiding the vaults and dip everyone, the mutants just capture the vaults and do a Logan's run style thing where everyone over a certain age gets dipped and then younger people are "encouraged" to have kids before being "uplifted."
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Mar 3, 2018 19:37
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