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I like how its always on the onus of the would be liberators to be nice about it. Don't want to disrupt the slow genocide of their people! Let's not forget all this is in service so they can ask for wakandas help in the next one. More black bodies will die for the sins of arrogant (hyper) white men. bushisms.txt fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 20:21
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temple posted:fyi: doom won bast's approval. pretty good defense imo Sinding Johansson posted:I bet in a few years there's going to be a marvel cinematic universe film where the Fantastic Four assemble to battle Doctor Doom and his fiendish plot to take over the world by providing everyone with universal healthcare. Tragically, that will mean denying one poor American boy a hovering wheelchair. He'll be defeated with the help of a plucky Pharma CEO and the five will open an urgent care clinic in Latveria that has like super stretchy bandaids or something. gently caress there goes my idea for screenplay
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Mar 6, 2018 20:22
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temple posted:might doesn't make right Might doesn't make right, of course, but it can be used in the service of what's right. And, buddy, nobody is suggesting that Wakanda should invade America and set up free markets, so I don't know where you're getting this "neoliberal interventionist" poo poo from.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:26
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The truth is that Wakanda is a neoliberal interventionist state, executing extralegal intelligence operations on foreign territory, and then at the end conceding to teach kids to code.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:29
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They have unparalleled stealth allowing them to go anywhere and they can't even drop off donations in multiple church boxes.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:32
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Sir Kodiak posted:Might doesn't make right, of course, but it can be used in the service of what's right. in the least, shield/starks work for the agencies and countries they defend. what incentive does wakanda have when they stand to benefit nothing? what will the merchant tribe say? how will they get agreement among the citizens? temple fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 20:34
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bushisms.txt posted:They have unparalleled stealth allowing them to go anywhere and they can't even drop off donations in multiple church boxes. They should drop off They Live glasses at local AME churches.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:37
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temple posted:people want wakanda to open its borders. that's next. you will want miraculous healthcare and kimoyo beads. will wakanda provide these things for free? what of the losses will they take in saving the world? who will quarter their soldiers? i don't think you have thought this out. You're trying to argue that a fictional country doesn't need to end oppression because logistics are too hard, this being a movie about a far out sci-fi fantasy wonderland. Again, you're operating on the basis that Wakanda is a real country and not a fictional storytelling device, and you've internalized the fantasy to the point of creating a comprehensive Wakanda First platform.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:41
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temple posted:people want wakanda to open its borders. that's next. you will want miraculous healthcare and kimoyo beads. will wakanda provide these things for free? what of they losses they take in saving the world? who will quarter their soldiers? i don't think you have thought this out. I don't personally need anything from Wakanda, it being fictional and all. The incentive is moral. I am not going to engage in a philosophical debate with you about why people should behave morally even when they don't benefit from it in this, the Black Panther thread, but there's extensive literature on the subject if you're interested.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:42
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In my fan edit of black panther, the final scene will be replaced by the music video God's Plan by Drake, with the full suited black panther and now living killmonger, handing out bags of cash.
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Mar 6, 2018 20:47
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Sir Kodiak posted:I don't personally need anything from Wakanda, it being fictional and all. that's the point. this is all fantasy for you and you are disatisfied with the reality of t'challa's decision. you came into the film with your critique all but written and when confronted with the many divergent threads in the movie, you simply go "its just a movie" and reiterate the same points.
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Mar 6, 2018 21:15
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temple posted:this is all fantasy for you and you are disatisfied with the reality of t'challa's decision. Black Panther is a fantasy. It's about a wondrous African sci-fi utopia. The film-makers simply snuffed out the radical potential in the premise, as symbolized by Killmonger, in favour of a liberal-neoliberal ethos.
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Mar 6, 2018 21:25
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Black Panther is a fantasy. It's about a wondrous African sci-fi utopia. You say that as if something has been stolen from you. This is what temple has been getting at. The authors are under no obligation to create the movie you think would be ideal. Saying "it had potential to be a different movie!" can scarcely even be called criticism, it's just saying you personally wanted different things to happen.
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Mar 6, 2018 21:37
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XboxPants posted:You say that as if something has been stolen from you. This is what temple has been getting at. The authors are under no obligation to create the movie you think would be ideal. This is another example of trying to argue "in the negative". A: "This movie is reactionary. It has some radical potential that is snuffed out." B: "Well the movie-makers don't need to make a radical movie for you, that's entitlement." You're trying to justify the movie being reactionary without addressing the fact that it's reactionary, by taking attention away from the movie itself. Criticizing the idea of wanting a hypothetical radical Black Panther movie (lol) justifies the existing reactionary movie. There is already a radical version of the Black Panther. It's called The Spook Who Sat by the Door. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 21:52
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even in a fantasy world, world wide insurrection is implausible. its implausible in reality. what are you criticizing? t'challa didn't lead a pyrrhic victory against the mcu? that's what i'm trying to get you to see. t'challa knew that and if you rewatch the film, several times the issues comes up. t'challa wanted to kill klaue and nakia stopped him. why? t'challa wanted to take klaue from the cia. why didn't he? what was the argument between t'challa and killmonger about in the throne room? its wasn't the challenge because t'challa accepted it against advice. you wanted a different fantasy in a setting that clearly operates by real world politics. you should be happy for that. but instead, you just want something that can't exist without destroying the whole context for the film.
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Mar 6, 2018 21:57
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temple posted:but instead, you just want something that can't exist without destroying the whole context for the film. That sounds like a good thing though?
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Mar 6, 2018 21:59
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temple posted:that's the point. this is all fantasy for you and you are disatisfied with the reality of t'challa's decision. you came into the film with your critique all but written and when confronted with the many divergent threads in the movie, you simply go "its just a movie" and reiterate the same points. I, of course, have never said "its [sic] just a movie." To the contrary, I'm investing my time in discussing it. I am, of course, discussing it as a movie, because treating Wakanda as a real place would be delusional. And if you think there's "divergent threads" that I'm failing to address, please feel free to bring them up. temple posted:a setting that clearly operates by real world politics I'll give you this, this is pretty funny. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Mar 6, 2018 |
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Mar 6, 2018 22:14
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temple posted:people want wakanda to open its borders. that's next. you will want miraculous healthcare and kimoyo beads. will wakanda provide these things for free? what of the losses they will take in saving the world? who will quarter their soldiers? i don't think you have thought this out. Holy poo poo, Lamps isn't exagerrating. You really are defending the actions of a fictional country as if it's the place and its people being criticised, rather than, you know, the movie.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is another example of trying to argue "in the negative". "This movie is reactionary" and "it should have been revolutionary" are two different statements, though, and you're conflating them. Every story has the potential to be radical if you change the story to turn it into a radical one. If that's what you want, write some original stories. I'm coming into this thread to talk about the story as it has been presented, not some hypothetical potential movie. You've externalized Black Panther to the point where there is this idealized version of the film that, to you, tangibly exists, and you're critiquing that. Can we stick to the film that was actually released?
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Mar 6, 2018 22:20
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Sir Kodiak posted:I, of course, have never said "its [sic] just a movie." To the contrary, I'm investing my time in discussing it. I am, of course, discussing it as a movie, because treating Wakanda as a real place would be delusional. And if you think there's "divergent threads" that I'm failing to address, please feel free to bring them up.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:22
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XboxPants posted:"This movie is reactionary" and "it should have been revolutionary" are two different statements, though, and you're conflating them. In what sense is it not reactionary? The main journey is an established monarch violently securing his monarchy against an outsider seeking to radically change the status quo.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:22
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temple posted:i already did but its cool. If you'd rather quote your original post where you did so instead of retype it, that's fine with me.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:25
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Sir Kodiak posted:If you'd rather quote your original post where you did so instead of retype it, that's fine with me. the mcu is filled with heroes from neoliberal oppressive nations. wakanda is an isolationist nation with no involvement in world wide trade. why is wakanda expected to use their wealth, soliders, and resources to oppose the aforementioned nations?
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Mar 6, 2018 22:30
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temple posted:the mcu is filled with heroes from neoliberal oppressive nations. wakanda is an isolationist nation with no involvement in world wide trade. why is wakanda expected to use their wealth, soliders, and resources to oppose the aforementioned nations? Sir Kodiak posted:With great power comes great responsibility
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Mar 6, 2018 22:33
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XboxPants posted:"This movie is reactionary" and "it should have been revolutionary" are two different statements, though, and you're conflating them. You seem to be arguing against the idea of reading a movie, and are trying to turn my mockery of internalizing fantasy around without really knowing what internalizing or externalizing is. As Zizek showed in that article, you don't need to change the story to make it radical, you just simply have to read it radically by accepting that Killmonger is the distorted hero of the story. The movie is rhetorical, and one simply must recognize the reactionary rhetoric at play and reject it. Killmonger is the true Black Panther, which is obvious despite the numerous evil qualities given to him.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You seem to be arguing against the idea of reading a movie, and are trying to turn my mockery of internalizing fantasy around without really knowing what internalizing or externalizing is. Ok in that case I have completely misunderstood you. When you said that the filmmakers had snuffed out the film's radical potential, I got the idea that you, you know, no longer felt the film had any potential for a radical reading.
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Mar 6, 2018 22:50
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What people are missing is that communism is bad, and capitalism is good. But Libertarian techno-anarchy is even better, and that's what T'Challa is actually trying to achieve at the end of the movie.
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Mar 6, 2018 23:36
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Mar 7, 2018 00:29
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BrianWilly posted:This forum's high-strung attempts to turn "liberal" into an dirty epithet has been pretty edifying to experience. It's almost as if the state of the nation has changed over the past ten years, or something, almost like a chain of events that made people change their worldview as new events, facts, and evidence came to pass, you know, the thing liberals used to pride themselves on. Taintrunner fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Mar 7, 2018 |
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Mar 7, 2018 01:43
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https://theoutline.com/post/3704/black-panther-in-china?zd=1&zi=7zbamihw Article about Black Panther's reception in China, which I thought was interesting in terms of racial and national identity
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Mar 12, 2018 22:20
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its also interesting one of the posters in this thread (28 posts) ate a 30 day-er for saying friend of the family 
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Mar 12, 2018 22:27
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Yes, we are aware that you've been hinting that the people criticizing this movie are racists.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:02
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Which is dumb on it's face as people are actually challenging the movie to do more than soft shoe respectability politics.
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Mar 13, 2018 00:57
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Steve Yun posted:https://theoutline.com/post/3704/black-panther-in-china?zd=1&zi=7zbamihw Lmfao: quote:In my screening, at least, it resulted in its somewhat tepid reception. Yang Yang, who admitted that she prefers more serious films to the superhero genre, says that it wasn’t the plot or cast of Black Panther that kept her from enjoying the film. It was that, without the context of why the movie was made, it felt to her like a hundred other superhero flicks and big-budget Hollywood films. Visually, she said, there were scenes that reminded her of Inception and Avatar. Roasted.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:08
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I've got some news for Yang Yang...we do the Killmonger thing too.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:14
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I've got some news for Yang Yang...we do the Killmonger thing too. Our diversity is our strength.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:21
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GORDON posted:Our diversity is our strength. The sun never sets on the Wakandan Empire...crazy imperial talk! Now let me just take a look at all the locations of our military bases...huh.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:24
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I hope there are more regular features about random Chinese filmgoers doing cynical, pithy critiques of American films. I'd read a hundred of these before I read any more poo poo from some idiot who's on the Oscars committee because her husband golfed with Louis B. Mayer or whatever the gently caress.
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Mar 13, 2018 01:34
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Yang-Yang knows what’s up.
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Mar 13, 2018 02:30
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Steve Yun posted:https://theoutline.com/post/3704/black-panther-in-china?zd=1&zi=7zbamihw This biggest take is the translation was bland and didn’t carry over the jokes
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Mar 13, 2018 04:35
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