Svaha posted:

I think I may have identified the problem.

Seriously though. Those character interactions are important because each one of them is establishing character motivation and fills out the characters. Most shows don't bother with that at all or make the most cursory effort with vague archetypes.(see: Darkmatter) The Expanse has characters that do things that make sense because their motivations are so well established (for the most part, looking at you, Melba )

It's pretty galling to me that you can't see the value of those interactions to the plot, especially in a show where the dialogue is so tightly written. Pretty much every interaction between characters has a point and well as paying off somewhere down the line. There is so little chaff in the dialogue that saying it's repetitious seems like a message posted from bizzaro world.

Toast Museum posted:

Are you doing a bit, or do you legitimately not remember a single character's name?

Morphix posted:

Again I think my little rant gave the wrong impression that I don't see the need for all this characterization. I know why it makes it a good show, or at least a good show for what I'm looking out of story telling. My biggest gripe is just, a lot of season 2 and now 3 I feel like I've already established what these relationships are, I don't need to be reminded the next episode, or if I do don't do it in another scene where two characters talk it out.

That's why I'm hinting at the montage thing and why in season 2 it was so out of place for the series, but it really planted how much time the show spends on screen explaining and discussing characters motivation. Instead of you know, just showing it.


I'm loving terrible with names in real life, this isn't a bit trying to be cute. I can tell you what episode a character did what and what their movitations were, what they wore what they looked like, but honestly even the lead Hammond or Harmond or Herold? Whatever the lead heros name is I'm completely blanking on right now

But if anyone has any recommendations on a show I may enjoy more, I'm always open. The Star Trek remakes do nothing for me, that fan-fiction Star Trek show written by the family guy dude seems interesting and I've heard good things but I also heard it's a lot of his humor, which man can that be real hit or miss.

sebmojo posted:

Naw, this is fine. It's an interesting perspective, it's not like we have any new eps to talk about.

Barreft posted:

I guess, but when you're 3 1/2 seasons in a show and don't know the main character's name you're either trolling or just stupid as hell.

sebmojo posted:

B5 is intensely good scenes and drama layered with lots of cheesy sets and wooden acting, but overall it's really good. Legend of the Rangers is the star wars Christmas special of follow-ups.

Barreft posted:

I guess, but when you're 3 1/2 seasons in a show and don't know the main character's name you're either trolling or just stupid as hell.

sebmojo posted:

One hand on the vaporiser, one hand on the fast forward, it's just how morphix roll

Morphix posted:

I'm just here to bring you my hot take unsullied by the internet except hearing first of its cancellation on the internet/hype and proceeding to binge watch it

Season 1, some great tv storytelling and entertainment, I am hooked

Seasons 2 by episode 3 I was ready to throw in the towel on the show, it does this thing that I hate shows doing which is every character pairing off and having their intense interpersonal moment, like the ezbake create a dramatic scene is have to characters talk very intensely aboout an issue but always resolve it within the scene.

This loving show in Seasons 2 and 3 takes this to the maaaaaax. like 7/10 out of scenes are two characters we shouldn't be wasting any loving time hearing about their feelings or backstories or fuuuuucking get on with the loving aliens aaaAaaaagh you have such a cool concept but gently caress me lets have another conversation about loyalty and pissing around

I totes get why this show got cancelled. I'm at s3e4 and I hate entire pacing of the show, the first season was so loving good and its like they blew they whole load there and turned the show into a space melodrama.

and that fuckian tao moa mad asian bio tech guy suddenly becoming evil at the end of whatever episode i just watch, like gently caress this show forever, gently caress you show, what happend to you between season 3 and 1

if amazon is doing like season 4 of this show, fire all the loving actors and whatever writers were added in s2/3. just start over, kill everyone off, or they're busy, or whatever, this is an interplantery war that could be spanning months of time each seasons, gently caress maybe even years, and instead we have to waste time one more touching the gang eats food together scene

edit like how the gently caress did so little happen in seasons 2, how are we just at the starting of this alien colony on venus mid season 3, like I get each season needs a story arc for a hook with some cliff hanger to keep you waiting, but this shits going to be like season 9 before I ever see any full scale alien vs human battles, or watch the playout of maybe a mass excition event, gently caress there are so many fun things you can touch on with this simple premise and its like

Morphix posted:

Sometimes within the same episode you will have multiple pairings of soldiers talking about loyalty. The first 3 episodes of season 2 were basically spent loving around on repairs while this GIANT CLIFFHANGER got delayed.

I have no problem with drama, I get that this isn't a documentary or history. But the first season made it seem like they wouldn't focus on any one specific character too much and instead focus on telling this interesting interplanetary story. There was hints of commorodiarty, some relationships building, some being betrayed but s2/3... like how many times do I have to listen to that one black OPA girl have to explain why shes OPA and what that REALLY means. Why does the hosed up childhood grunt have to let us know how hosed up he is multiple times in a season. Why does he feel he needs to explain himself constantly. Like every character NEEDS to have at least one 'whoa man you really don't GET me' conversation per episode with each other.

I mean it can be interesting, but in small doses.


I have no idea how anyone can say that. I mean if you like wall produced shlock sure, nothing against that. But the first season was interesting, the 2/3 is every multi-actor show where instead of focusing on the overall narrative (because they either don't know how to develop it further or because its easy as gently caress to write another 'soldier isn't sure about which side of the war he's fighting on' two shot scene) they are constantly reminding you about the interpersonal drama between characters. Like did I really have to listen to yet another Mars marine not sure about their loyalty. In Season 3 it's super dumb because you have the main Mars chick doing her badassery to save the diplomat lady, and than the NEXT loving episode is 'oh here is 3 more mars marine with same conflict lets explore that again!'

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, but ya gently caress this show. I'll still finish season 3 because I'm in too deep and you still get glimpses of the brilliance of season 1


Let me be clear, it's the shear repetition of the exact same conversation with new bodies standing in that's frustrating. Like every scene where I see one character hanging out, about to be joined by another 'who they aren't quite sure about yet' is dead space to me. And I wasn't exaggerating when I said 7/10 scenes in Season 2 or 3 are like this. Go back and watch the poo poo, it's such a paint by numbers adventure.

anyway that's my morning coffee rant.

Morphix posted:

I don't hate the plot or the characters. I hate the pacing of the plot and the characters in Season 2 and 3. I explicitly hate that back to back to back you'll have a scene where two characters talk about the same poo poo they talked about previously in an episode. And if it's not those two characters we will introduce two more and have the same topic covered by these two fresh faces.

I'm not sure how to make that more clear. The show already recaps every thing at the start of the show, yet it's like that isn't enough, I need to be reminded yet again of why this hosed up grunt is sad because ~childhood~. It's so frustrating. It feels like Game of Thrones in space to me, which gently caress that show as well.

Morphix posted:

1) the lady mars marine who defects, we get 2 episodes exploring loyalty
2) the follow episode we get those stranded mars marines who try to take the ship, again whose the bad guys really?!
3) if it's not the mars marines, it's the OPA soldiers having this conversation. If it's not the OPA is the Earth soldiers. And if it's not them it's some bum gently caress trader who has to think about their loyalty. And this is just the 'who are my friends really' thing, they do this with everything. Is science bad? Find out by having multiple scenes stretching multiple episodes of characters talking about this. In the exact same manner.

Again I don't care about the fact that Martians are loyal or that the show emphasizes this alot because of plot reasons. It's just it does it over and over and over with every theme and idea. I'm just picking on the loyalty thing because it stands out so much.

e- the reason it's frustrating personally, is it reminds of me the Game of Thrones dragon thing. And how they honeydicked you for god knows how many seasons with it. Always talking about it, but never really advancing the story in front of you, just talking about it being advanced and how that FEELS. Same thing here. I want this universe to rally against a common cause, to maybe lose, gently caress whatever. But instead we get yet another scene of scientists talking about the experiment and is it okay for humans to gently caress other humans. The entire Season 1 arc was about this, the whole 100k people dying, but nah that wasn't enough, gently caress it lets throw in a small girl into the next season and do it all again.

e2- just to be clear I really really loved Season 1. Like some of the best TV watching I've had in a long time. That's the only reason I'm kind of heated about 2/3. It feels like so much wasted opportunity.

Morphix posted:

I don't understand how you come away with that impression. The nuance of the first season is what I enjoyed. Wasting yet another season on scientists doing a bad thing thinking it's good for humanity isn't that. It's lazy writing and doing their loving best to stretch this premise out to god knows how many seasons.

e-1 especially when that bad thing they're doing, like you just had so many episodes in Season 1 covering the topic. Yet gently caress it lets do it season 2 and 3 as well because ~wow isn't space a moral gray area', like I got it show, I got it the first time you killed 100k people, you don't loving need to keep reminding me that sometimes good people do bad things. Seriously go rewatch the show and pick any interesting topic from Season 1 and see how often that theme/idea is repeated in this same two characters talking about it way. Meanwhile the giant alien war we could be exploring, meh lets just leave that for the cliffhangers. like fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

Morphix posted:

Exactly. Like I so wish we could just skip a few months or years if the plot requires it. But instead Miller meets the gang in end of Season 1 and right at the start of s2 we have to estalibsh once again that trusting people is hard, and whose really the bad guy, and whatever. Like motherfuckers you just met each other 2 hours ago, maybe have that conversation after you do the important story thing you hinted at at the end of Season1.


I mean at the end of the day who cares, the show I liked isn't turning out the way I want it to be, the end. If you still enjoy it, more power to you. I guess I'm just shocked noone else has picked up how repetitive this show is. Maybe it's something you only really notice when you binge watch it?


What? I mean seriously? It's like one of the main themes of the show. Who can you trust. It's constantly getting repeated, from OPA to Belters, to Earth to Earth, Mars to Earth, Mars to Mars, and with a revolving cast of characters from these backgrounds, all having a variation of the same conversation, which boils down too "whoa can I really trust you?!." I'm not saying word for word the same conversation happens (although honestly sometimes it feels like it), but the theme/ideas get repeated over and over, like literally sometimes multiple times within the same episode.

Morphix posted:

Or how about exploring the political betrayal angel between factions. I get it, it happens. But does so much screen time need to be focused on letting us know how these two new characters feel about it. Like that Diplomat rescue scene with the Martian. We've already had the show cover that from the OPA and Earth angles, and right after shes rescured, instead of doing the story thing, gently caress it lets once again have another scene where our Diplomat has to convince someone shes the good guy. It's so frustrating.


maybe I'm not being clear, I honestly don't care what specific way they handle the alien thing, gently caress even if they only bring it up at the same rate they do now, fiiiiiiiiine. But it's specifically, and again go watch the show if you don't believe me, two loving characters, always one already in the scene, another walks in, and they discuss a theme from their perspective. And than they'll have another set of characters discuss it the same episode, sometimes the next, but 100% it will be covered multiple times within the season, and now by season 3 it's like, if I have to hear another soldier talk about how they don't know who to trust I'm going to kill myself.


so maybe I'm not crazy and just noticing it in the TV show and it was made worse by binge watching it over a weekend. I totes see how that could happen.

Morphix posted:

I smoked some fine reefer and it got me thinking,

what this show needs is more 80s montages. I know it sounds amazing but hear me out

season 2 episode 2 or 3 had this musical montage. It was really out of place because they had just spent the past 2/3 episodes covering what they montaged in those two characters scenes. Essentially the montage was useless.

But what if the montage wasn't useless. What if the montage wasn't set to a bumping song. What if we just cut down some of these characters moping loving around. Just cut that fat. I get that actors need screentime, but being honeydicked by interesting poo poo and than it barely receiving any screen time is frustrating as gently caress.

Again let me be clear if I'm not already, I don't want the show to be non stop action, that's not what I mean cut the fat. The interpersonal stuff is what makes the show interesting, it's what gives it texture, but I don't have a toddles memory, I can remember themes between seasons, I can remember characters motivations to do poo poo in between episodes.

now to become too much of a steryotype, but one of the interesting things about the Wire in between seasons was they switched the overall theme that the season focused on, but still touched on previous themes. The gang violence was there like seasons 1, but later on we focused on the systemic parts. But you as the viewer, remember those earlier themes and it made it interesting, to contrast for yourself, the change in your own thinking about the unfolding events.

Morphix posted:

I stand by it like I stand by Bladerunner 1/2 being boring loving movies. Granted the reefer might of exaggerated the Bladerunner 2 being boring af thing but that's just the risks you take playing at the big boys table.

e- also that last godzilla, where they barely show Godzilla? One of the best creature movies in a while, and for sure the best Godzilla since the original. that's another hot take for ya pal!

Morphix posted:

I have an award for growing the stuff. So I kind of know my way around reefers

but back to my montage, does anyone else remember that? It's so out of place but maaan by like episode 8 or 9 did I yearn for it's sweeet sweet return.

Morphix posted:

meh I'm at s3e5 now, I'll finish it and see where it ends.

I don't hate the show, my reaction is mostly in contrast to my love of the first season and my own feelings on why it didn't meet them. Like if S1 was 9.5/10, Seasons 2 and 3 are like a 4-5/10 with glimpses of that old 9.5 rarely. Overall it's still a solid 7/10 show and if you're into space it's one of the best. But like it almost felt like the wire in space and I was puuuuumped because I hadn't been that excited about a show in a long time.


someone said a bad thing about a thing I like, which makes me feel sad because I don't know how to seperate myself from the things I consume so I assume the person saying the bad thing is really saying I'm bad for liking the thing.txt

Morphix posted:

In this case you're referring to the overall progress of the story in the season from the first. I'm referring to the scene to scene repetition of the same character dynamic. The best was I can describe it is like this, usually it's about how one character, let's call him Bob, he can't trust/love/understand/emotion , he's hanging out and moping or doing work or any action, and enters the character who we've already established at least once that they can't do the thing Bob needs.

Suddenly we have drama! Bob can't trust John because they're from different worlds. Bob can't love John because they're from different worlds. Bob can't understand John because war is complicated and they're from different worlds.

On the surface you can change Bob for Henry and John for Jane and how it's hard for Henry to understand/love/trust some 3rd character. But to keep getting reminded of these dynamics to create drama scene to scene is really weak for me. Watching it straight through I was pissed when Season 3 starts with mopey former child prostitute soldier with his new gruff beard, once again being mopey with the same characters. The reasons being different, but the dynamic being used keep me hooked feels cheap. Fixing this for me isn't showing me another character being unable to love/trust/understand someone else in the next scene, it's to cut these scenes down to a literal montage. Hint more at these dynamics with short looks between characters, maybe odd camera angles, not the constant talking and talking and talking about the INTERESTING THING on screen while it's all happening in the background off screen with very little time dedicated too it.

Like it doesn't have to be the execution of the plan, maybe we get texture with more planning, more tech jargon, more anything that isn't just repeated interpersonal drama. Like how many times have we heard a speech about how belters and everyone else just don't get along, I mean literal minutes of time spent on screen by characters explaining why this is interesting to us. I got it with the first scene in seasons 1 and the protestor dude speaking through his megaphone. Lot's of strife between people from different worlds, got it. Scenes where the Martians hijack that uncle and nephew's cargo and the Uncle jettisons the Nephew, that's loving awesome. It goes soooo much further to show how distant the relationship between the belters and the rest is, but instead of more of that, we get in the same episode leaders on both belter factions explaining to outsiders this relationship in these talk fest scenes.

Morphix posted:

I'll concede to point C and it actually got me thinking, was what I was looking for was more action, more set pieces, more places too see.

And honestly it's not that, I recognize so many of the props in this show, the 500gallon water tanks they use as generic cargo tanks everywhere, but aside from a quick meh it doesn't affect my viewing at all.

Ultimately to me the first season showed a lot more of the story and textured it with different characters lens of the story, season 2 and 3 shifted heavily into showing less of the story and getting almost every characters perspective on the now not being shown story.

~the story being people in space near future on the brink of war when suddenly a mcguffin appears that changes everything~

I mean this isn't deep poo poo here, it's a simple rear end story as long as time.

Morphix posted:

so here is an example of interpersonal conflict that's repeated at least twice in the same episode and a 3rd time with the black opa lady in like the 2/3rd half of season2:

Pilot likes cooking, it gives him a sense of commendatory with his team and a moment away from the madness. Cool. Solid idea, every Sci Fi military thing has a mess hall scene where bonding happens over food.

So Pilot cooks for everyone in season 1, that's set.

Season 2 rolls around and now the pilot has this exact same scene except this time with two individual characters on the ship, separately of course. And to top of the season the pilot lets the black opa lady cook and completely flips the script!

So that's just one example of what I'm getting at with this repetition thing. The biggest offender is the soldiers talking and the running theme being 'who can you really trust', it wasn't bad when it was just the core group introduce in season 1, but than they just keep introducing more and more characters. But to give concrete examples of this I'd have to watch s2 again because it really started to wash over me after a while. The one that really stood out was when they rescued the Mars ship and the Earth Diplomat is on the ship with the recently exiled Mars Recon Marine. Like we wasted at least 3-5 minutes of the show establishing that it's hard for these brand new cast of characters to trust the crew that just rescued them. loving why show, whyyyyyyyy, like havn't we had enough scenes where someone who is rescuing someone doesn't trust them. gently caress we've had an entire episode plot lines centered around this concept. But gently caress it here are some throw away characters, lets run the trust script again because always gotta keep the drama high stakes, every scene, every interaction.

The scene should of been 'mars marines rescued, they revolt, they get forced to take a message after failed revolt' 15 seconds blim blam done. If the budget or time constraints of the episode don't call for massive action in the revolt, make it short like they did in the episode. But the loving lead up to it, to be reminded why it's about to happen, and why this makes sense in the universe they've created. It's like I'm constantly being hand holded through every scene.


edit- and hand holded in a very professional and well produced way. again don't get me wrong the show is a solid 7/10, but there are hundreds of shows like this in my opinion. They're all well produced, well acted, well everything. The only thing that makes them different is the setting/story being told. Season 1 for me was well beyond that, it was great story telling and they seem to have been spinning their tires a lot since then.

Morphix posted:

and totes, and that's why I loved season 1, one of the overall themes was about trust, miller trusting his gut/heart, the team trusting each other, etc etc. There are a bunch of fun themes in this show, but it's like they're all explored nicely in Season 1, and than instead of finding new themes to explore, they're just dragging the plot to rehash the old stuff. Like one reason I've stuck with this is I'm really curious what the world dynamic changes like when everyone knows there are aliens. Suddenly maybe old lines erase, common enemy, who knows, but it'd be an interesting setting to revisit these universal themes.


a lot, a lot about the show is great, the characters, they're multi facteted, the story and world building are done great for the most part even in season 2/3.


again I don't understand what's so hard. I'm not asking for more loving action scenes. I'm asking not to be beat over the loving head with the same variation of themes sometimes multiple times per episode. the politics stuff is great, when it moves the plot forward, it's not great when once again we have to have two politicians loving talking about WHATS BEST FOR THEIR SIDE AND HOW CAN YOU EVER UNDERSTAND THAT YOURE FROM THE OTHER SIDE! Shorten that, give me an update on the war front, give me another flash back to tech being developed for the universe, anything but just that same thing.


it loving is when once again people learn to trust each other with the power of food, do anything but bond over food, gently caress on it, use it as pranks, anything but two people sitting down over some super and hashing things out.

Morphix posted:

yes, I once was beaten by a ham at a formative part of my life

but also it's more like passion for the things you love, if I didn't care about the setting/world/characters, I wouldn't even be posting here. People validating my tv watching likes isn't what keeps me up. I was honestly curious if anyone else shared the take if the show got better, or if maybe there was talks of a different direction. There's been a drought of good hard sci fi and this show really wet that appetite in the first season. I've been sticking with it largely out of a love of that.

Morphix posted:

Again I think my little rant gave the wrong impression that I don't see the need for all this characterization. I know why it makes it a good show, or at least a good show for what I'm looking out of story telling. My biggest gripe is just, a lot of season 2 and now 3 I feel like I've already established what these relationships are, I don't need to be reminded the next episode, or if I do don't do it in another scene where two characters talk it out.

That's why I'm hinting at the montage thing and why in season 2 it was so out of place for the series, but it really planted how much time the show spends on screen explaining and discussing characters motivation. Instead of you know, just showing it.


I'm loving terrible with names in real life, this isn't a bit trying to be cute. I can tell you what episode a character did what and what their movitations were, what they wore what they looked like, but honestly even the lead Hammond or Harmond or Herold? Whatever the lead heros name is I'm completely blanking on right now

But if anyone has any recommendations on a show I may enjoy more, I'm always open. The Star Trek remakes do nothing for me, that fan-fiction Star Trek show written by the family guy dude seems interesting and I've heard good things but I also heard it's a lot of his humor, which man can that be real hit or miss.

Morphix posted:

im dumb as hell, in real life if I don't immediately repeat a name I JUST heard 3 times verbally I will instantly forget it. Like minutes/hours later I can spot you across the party and repeat most of the conversation we just had from both sides, but your name is long gone if I didn't do the repeat thing. it's a pain as I often will remember the repeat thing right after forgetting the name.


nah I don't fast forward, I loving yell at the show asking why it won't do it the way I want it. the hosed thing is sometimes the show responds and rewards me with exactly what I wanted the next scene to be. I may need to step up my weed game so these tv folks start getting more of my good brain signals.

Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:

Kaedric posted:

Like, I don't agree with the guy, but I hate the thing where if someone posts more than a few sentences they 'care too much' or whatever. can we not

dog nougat posted:

Probably not.

BlackJosh posted:

hahahaha "There's more than one scene of people cooking things! SO REPETITIVE!"

Barreft posted:

How can you converse in good faith with someone who doesn't even remember Holden's name by now

Barreft posted:

Can you just smoke your award winning weed and gently caress off?

Milo and POTUS posted:

What the gently caress is even going on

Groetgaffel posted:

This is the most accurate description of Legend of the Rangers I've seen.

Kaedric posted:

Like, I don't agree with the guy, but I hate the thing where if someone posts more than a few sentences they 'care too much' or whatever. can we not

etalian posted:

but it didn't have any Wookies watching holo porn....

Also the only good scene in the Last Jedi is when Chewie is having a Porg BBQ

dog nougat posted:

Wait. That happened? I'm too lazy to look it up. I believe it was a thing that happened, but it was so eminently forgettable that beyond the most basic gist of the plot I forget everything about it.

dog nougat posted:

Wait. That happened? I'm too lazy to look it up. I believe it was a thing that happened, but it was so eminently forgettable that beyond the most basic gist of the plot I forget everything about it.

Mu Zeta posted:

Didn't feel forced to me. Don't give a gently caress about the books.

Mu Zeta posted:

Legend of the Rangers was the first Babylon 5 thing I ever saw and I immediately knew it would be my last.

ashpanash posted:

There's enough of Babylon 5 that I legitimately like to give it a half-hearted recommendation, but I also think it's entirely unessential and hasn't aged well at all. Farscape is much more interesting.

etalian posted:

It's the decade of JNCO jeans

ashpanash posted:

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/leevis-3-legged-jeans/n10132?snl=1

bring back old gbs posted:

sir, the ship's targeting systems cant fire off this many hot takes. we need someone to pilot the Morphix chamber:

Phi230 posted:

Well you're wrong sorry it was dumb and forced and so are you

etalian posted:

mods should do to this thread what the PM did to the old gate system.

ashpanash posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQLZff9ioko

Oh my god it's so much worse than I remembered

Edit: now in HD!