|
ExtraNoise posted:Argh I want to be angry/not angry about game titles literally meaning everything/meaning nothing forever! The devs have literally said they don't mean anything so I'm not sure why that argument is even part of the debate still. Also it's kind of funny how much the past couple of pages' argument sounds like a note for note retread of stuff that's been getting said in the Paradox forums for the past couple of months considering how much people here tend to mock them. Mantis42 posted:But man, there's gotta be a Warring States DLC at some point. There's more demand for it than there was India in CK2, anyways, and its less alien to the base gameplay than medieval China is to CK2's feudalism. East Asia is way less suited to CK2's mechanics, but vastly more relevant to its world than during antiquity. I'm gonna be perturbed if there's not China in CK3 but it makes a lot of sense to leave it out of this one.
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 22:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:41 |
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Historiography wasn't really an art in India until the Muslim invasions introduced it to the subcontinent. The stuff we see written down from the Mauryan era is mostly religious and philosophical works. These can tell you a lot about a civilization, to be clear, but the kind of high level political stuff Paradox games thrive on, there's not too much. Ashoka the Great ruled one of the largest empires of antiquity but the only contemporary sources of his reign are the pillars he constructed bearing his edicts. There was no Herodotus basically. And many of the ancient historians of other cultures had most of their works lost in warfare, as the deliberate destruction of records was a thing many people did when conquering territory and sacking cities. We only have a loose understanding of who the Romans knew about and traded with due to the sheer amount of information lost during the sacking of Rome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 22:34
|
|
|
It's amazing how much stuff gets destroyed for good even in societies that produced absolute shitloads of texts. After its devastating wars with the Jin, the Song Chinese libraries were so depleted that they had to ask Korea for replacements to a huge amount of it, for copies of things that had originally been written in China. And that's in one of the most literate societies in the entire world at the time that had a form of printing press and everything. And in Korea the oldest surviving histories at this point are from the 1200s, even though they'd likely been making them going back nearly a thousand years before that and copying their texts prodigiously.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 22:46
|
|
|
There's plenty of back and forth between India and the West in this period. Game starts ~two years after Chandragupta's treaty with Seleucus. And in the decades that followed eventually the Greco-Bactrians expanded into India. Plenty of trade going on, especially via the Red Sea, ambassadors going back and forth like Megasthenes, one of the Edicts of Aśoka records some manner of contact with Antigonus Gonatus in Macedon, Ptolemy III in Egypt, Magas of Cyrene and Alexander of Epirus
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:02
|
|
|
So uh moving on from What a Name Means chat, I really hope the states are a decent size, because having to manage trade/pops/government/etc is going to be worse than Stellaris tiles if there's less than like 5 or 6 of those provinces to a state
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:31
|
|
|
They mentioned the amount somewhere, I don't totally remember but IIRC it goes up to 8 or so? Or maybe 10. But there will probably also be lots that are more like 5-6 or even less. Honestly I don't see the problem even if it is like 5-6; divide the 7000whatever by that and you get considerably less provinces than EU4 had even on launch. I'm curious to see all of what's actually gonna be offloaded onto states because right now it looks like there still is a bunch of micromanagement in cities too, but if it's just a few thousand to manage (if you control...literally the entire world) then it should be manageable. Especially since they've had some experience with the macrobuilder now (it was new when EU4 launched) so hopefully a lot more stuff will be accessible via that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:40
|
|
|
Jackie D posted:So uh moving on from What a Name Means chat, I really hope the states are a decent size, because having to manage trade/pops/government/etc is going to be worse than Stellaris tiles if there's less than like 5 or 6 of those provinces to a state According to a previous dev diary quote:A province is usually about 10 to 12 cities, and this is the entity you interact with to control trade and assign governors to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:41
|
|
|
Thank you
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:44
|
|
|
It was a much more local world and I wouldn't be mad if it were significantly more difficult to keep a large empire together.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2018 23:53
|
|
|
Astroclassicist posted:There's plenty of back and forth between India and the West in this period. Game starts ~two years after Chandragupta's treaty with Seleucus. And in the decades that followed eventually the Greco-Bactrians expanded into India. Plenty of trade going on, especially via the Red Sea, ambassadors going back and forth like Megasthenes, one of the Edicts of Aśoka records some manner of contact with Antigonus Gonatus in Macedon, Ptolemy III in Egypt, Magas of Cyrene and Alexander of Epirus Yeah, the arguments some posters have been making that India and Rome had 0 to do with each other is frankly baffling. SnoochtotheNooch posted:What? The romans talk about the Gauls from the first sack of Rome up until the western empire fell. There’s plenty of documentation on Gaul/Iberia/Anatolia. India.... not so much. Ya know why? It had nothing to do with Rome during the time period the game is set in. Like here. This is just embarrassing to post.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 00:00
|
|
|
For me, the titles of Paradox games are a better indication of the time period they take place in rather than the geographic location they focus on.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 00:17
|
|
|
Paradox should definitely make CoD 5 though
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 00:20
|
|
|
Beamed posted:Yeah, the arguments some posters have been making that India and Rome had 0 to do with each other is frankly baffling. I feel ya. Tell me about the exciting and rich interactions India and Rome had with each other. Go ahead, lets hear it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 00:54
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:I feel ya. Tell me about the exciting and rich interactions India and Rome had with each other. Go ahead, lets hear it. The last page is literally full of em. Lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 00:55
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:The last page is literally full of em. Oh hey yea wow! Looks like some roman merchants set up a trade post in some southern indian village! What rich history! jeez im so embarrassed for being a dumbass and not realizing the history of Rome and the history of India are extremely relevant to each other! Like, Rome the city that conquered the Mediterranean could not possible have a story told a million times by a million different historians and not be completely intermingled with india every single time it's history is told.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:03
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:Oh hey yea wow! Looks like some roman merchants set up a trade post in some southern indian village! What rich history! jeez im so embarrassed for being a dumbass and not realizing the history of Rome and the history of India are extremely relevant to each other! Like, Rome the city that conquered the Mediterranean could not possible have a story told a million times by a million different historians and not being completely intermingled with india every single time it's history is told. Ok just take the L man, this is embarrassing
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:04
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:also we do know about indian history in this time period. from, y'know, the indians themselves. they wrote poo poo down, these are not pre-literate tribesmen we're talking about where the only available records are from a roman or greek perspective I always thought one of the big issues with Indian historiography was that they wrote very little poo poo down compared with other literate societies until relatively late in the day, at least in terms of recording factual history. We know infinitely more about China in the same period than about India no?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:07
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:I always thought one of the big issue with Indian historiography was that they wrote very little poo poo down compared with other literate societies until relatively late in the day. We know infinitely more about China in the same period than about India no? That’s not a fair comparison as China wrote everything down. No one really compares to them. Not even Greece or Rome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:08
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:Oh hey yea wow! Looks like some roman merchants set up a trade post in some southern indian village! What rich history! jeez im so embarrassed for being a dumbass and not realizing the history of Rome and the history of India are extremely relevant to each other! Like, Rome the city that conquered the Mediterranean could not possible have a story told a million times by a million different historians and not be completely intermingled with india every single time it's history is told. the imperial trade fleet was at least 120 ships annually for hundreds of years and this isn't counting private merchants. the indian trade was likely worth more than any of rome's other interactions with foreign powers - a single one of those ships held enough value in rome to buy 500 square miles of land along the nile, some of the most valuable land in the empire. no, they didn't war with each other or anything, obviously, but the roman state was under constant financial stress even with heavy taxes on this hugely valuable trade - you could make a pretty compelling argument that the empire would have collapsed into bankruptcy at like twenty different points in roman history without it. there is a reason the europeans later bothered to sail around africa just to get to india you know
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:18
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:Oh hey yea wow! Looks like some roman merchants set up a trade post in some southern indian village! What rich history! jeez im so embarrassed for being a dumbass and not realizing the history of Rome and the history of India are extremely relevant to each other! Like, Rome the city that conquered the Mediterranean could not possible have a story told a million times by a million different historians and not be completely intermingled with india every single time it's history is told. nice
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:25
|
|
|
I actually agree that you don't need India modelled on map in order to represent their relations with Rome. Trade is almost always highly abstracted in these games anyways. Even for the Diadochi/Greco-Bactrians you really only need northwest India to be on the map. But I'm glad they're putting the whole subcontinent in anyways, since its more and more varied content. I'm one of the people who does India games in CK2, even.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:28
|
|
|
Jazerus posted:the imperial trade fleet was at least 120 ships annually for hundreds of years and this isn't counting private merchants. the indian trade was likely worth more than any of rome's other interactions with foreign powers - a single one of those ships held enough value in rome to buy 500 square miles of land along the nile, some of the most valuable land in the empire. Ok, and I think thats about as interesting as you could describe the interactions they had. When you think about history, typically there are landmark events, plots, characters, (everything in these games) within a country, or its neighbors. Theres really no meaningful interaction there. They traded goods back and forth and it benefited the empire.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:30
|
|
|
People mad about being able to go full 150% Alexander in a video game itt
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:33
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:I actually agree that you don't need India modelled on map in order to represent their relations with Rome. Trade is almost always highly abstracted in these games anyways. Even for the Diadochi/Greco-Bactrians you really only need northwest India to be on the map. But I'm glad they're putting the whole subcontinent in anyways, since its more and more varied content. I'm one of the people who does India games in CK2, even. Well there is a difference between arguing you don’t need something and something had no effect. One is just opinion and the other is hilariously wrong and proves you probably shouldn’t talk about history. As you clearly don’t know any of it. But it’s the internet so they will never admit they were wrong and just double down forever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:33
|
|
|
How am I supposed to spread Hellenic-Buddhist culture to Ireland without a proper Bactria?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:37
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Well there is a difference between arguing you don’t need something and something had no effect. lol at the irony in this post. I actually am fine with india being in the game. Even if theres no compelling stories of interactions with indians I usually like the variance a different culture/governements paradox adds to their games. I just wanted to drag on this really stupid argument bc you have such a hard on for india for some strange reason.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:38
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:lol at the irony in this post. I actually am fine with india being in the game. Even if theres no compelling stories of interactions with indians I usually like the variance a different culture/governements paradox adds to their games. I just wanted to drag on this really stupid argument bc you have such a hard on for india for some strange reason. Puppet Master defense? Nice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:39
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Puppet Master defense? Nice. Idk what that is, I dont post every day of my life. Just like to talk about games. You seem pathetically tied to 'winning' a discussion I hopped into halfway through though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:41
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:Idk what that is, I dont post every day of my life. Just like to talk about games. You seem pathetically tied to 'winning' a discussion I hopped into halfway through though. Which is why you keep posting you don’t care that much. If you don’t care, stop posting about it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:43
|
|
|
Shut the gently caress up charles, even when I agree with you you're obnoxious as hell.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:44
|
|
|
in this instance both sides are
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:44
|
|
|
lol @ this thread
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:46
|
|
|
Can we get to the important questions, namely can I form the Byzantine Empire?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:49
|
|
|
Sindai posted:I was wondering how long it would be before someone forgot map changes are always free and go for this hot take. This would be a keen insight if I had said they were charging for them. Maybe you think the free updates are somehow not part of the dlc model?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 01:49
|
|
|
Gas
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:15
|
|
|
What I'm saying is I want Victoria 3
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:16
|
|
|
Jackie D posted:What I'm saying is I want Victoria 3 The Stellaris thread is over that a way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:37
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Shut the gently caress up charles, even when I agree with you you're obnoxious as hell. empty quoting this
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:42
|
|
|
Will the "India question" be the Imperator: Rome thread's "Collectivism/Individualism" debate for Stellaris? EDIT: Or, if anyone was there to remember it, the "Westernization" debate for EU4? DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jul 24, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 10:41 |
|
|
Koramei posted:East Asia is way less suited to CK2's mechanics, but vastly more relevant to its world than during antiquity. I'm gonna be perturbed if there's not China in CK3 but it makes a lot of sense to leave it out of this one. I feel like the main obstacle to adding China is the fact that it would practically double the number of provinces between China's density and adding in the countries that China interacted with. And with countries China interacted with, where do you stop? After getting through the big hump of adding China, Korea and SE Asia seems obvious, then you might as well add Japan for reasons, and then there's a whole assortment of islands out there within real plausible boat range. Any way you slice it, that's a lot of devwork, and then optimization on top of that to make it all run.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2018 02:57
|
|
