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EU4 is the worst current paradox game just behind HoI4
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Sep 7, 2018 08:51
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EU4 remains my favorite paradox game of all time. I even like the combat better than HoI4. It just feels much more satisfying to fight as an underdog and win, and the diplomatic side of things has way more depth than in any other paradox game.Cease to Hope posted:It's funny, EU4 just introduced two HOI4-like nation-building talent trees, while HOI4's decision system is taken directly from the EU series. I guess you mean the missions and government reforms? Those are absolutely nothing like anything in HoI4. Missions are on a tree like focuses I guess but the way they work is completely different (they're basically goals for the player that unlock as they play) and they don't give you permanent bonuses or anything. It's extremely far from a "nation-building talent tree." Government reforms are closer, but it's not a tree at all. Just a linear set of decisions to make that affect your country in usually pretty minor ways (though a few have sweeping impacts). I don't get the sense that it was inspired by HoI4 at all. People had a kneejerk reaction when the mission system was first introduced but in reality it is a super different thing. edit: I won't deny that EU4 has had some issues with lacking a clear focus for development lately and sometimes adding features that feel completely extraneous and shallow. But the core gameplay is still as fun as it has always been for me. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 09:10
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EU4 is the title that suffers the most from its long development. Even though CK2 is older, EU4's problems with just piling more and more different systems on top of each other and calling it depth is far more evident.
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Sep 7, 2018 09:16
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Rumda posted:EU4 is the worst current paradox game just behind HoI4 no u
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Sep 7, 2018 10:36
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Is Vicky3 out yet?
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Sep 7, 2018 10:55
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The difference between CK2 and EU4's DLCs are that by and large CK2 focused, especially early, on adding and focusing on entirely new playstyles- Muslims, Pagans, Republics, as ex as examples- and while everyone got a handful of new features they weren't ALL given to everyone. Only morw recently have they been altering parts of the game, new Council mechanics with Conclave, new disease system, China. Even then they overhauled systems rather than just added them. EU4's entire map has been playable from the start so new features were generally added to everyone. If you play CK2 as a Catholic it's still fairly close to launch's play experience.
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Sep 7, 2018 12:06
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I guess you mean the missions and government reforms? Those are absolutely nothing like anything in HoI4. Missions are on a tree like focuses I guess but the way they work is completely different (they're basically goals for the player that unlock as they play) and they don't give you permanent bonuses or anything. It's extremely far from a "nation-building talent tree." I do, and I really just disagree. The new EU4 missions give your game the same sort of structure as the HOI4 expansionist trees tend to, setting out an explicit historical (or alt-historical) course of development to follow. The biggest difference (besides their size) is that progress through them isn't guaranteed, but rather a result of meeting goals. Government reforms are definitely a talent tree. I haven't played with them much yet, though, since they're a day old.
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Sep 7, 2018 12:14
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Drone posted:EU4 is the title that suffers the most from its long development. Even though CK2 is older, EU4's problems with just piling more and more different systems on top of each other and calling it depth is far more evident. EUIV is a fantastic game that was unfortunately Frankensteined into mediocrity. I don't even have the courage to boot it up these days, I know there will be at least five new icons that I may or may not be able to ignore.
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Sep 7, 2018 12:25
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Cease to Hope posted:I do, and I really just disagree. The new EU4 missions give your game the same sort of structure as the HOI4 expansionist trees tend to, setting out an explicit historical (or alt-historical) course of development to follow. The biggest difference (besides their size) is that progress through them isn't guaranteed, but rather a result of meeting goals. The old missions did the same though, it's just that you didn't get to see what the next parts of the tree were ahead of time unless you looked it up on the wiki.
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Sep 7, 2018 14:30
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I quite like EU4 still. There’s a lot more stuff now but that’s fine. I used to have a ton of downtime even on speed 5 that I don’t anymore.
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Sep 7, 2018 14:56
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I still only have Common Sense and Art of War and have yet to find a convincing reason to get another DLC.
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Sep 7, 2018 18:10
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Morrow posted:I still only have Common Sense and Art of War and have yet to find a convincing reason to get another DLC. The Diplomatic Macro builder from Mandate of Heaven is definitely pretty game-changing
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Sep 7, 2018 18:30
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art of war is pretty much essential unless you're never calling allies into war and never using puppets i think it also has army templates
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Sep 7, 2018 18:32
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Senor Dog posted:I quite like EU4 still. There’s a lot more stuff now but that’s fine. I used to have a ton of downtime even on speed 5 that I don’t anymore. EU4 is still a good game, but it desperately, desperately needs to skip an expansion and instead focus that development time on a streamlining phase. EU4 is a lumbering giant of systems that have been tacked on over and over and over again over the years... some play well together, some don't, and in the end it's an awful mess for anyone coming to the game fresh. I've played Paradox games for fifteen years now and if someone were to ask me, "which title do you recommend I start with?" EU4 would be in dead-last place. Not because it's a bad game, but because it's nigh-impossible to start out with EU4 in the TYOOL 2018. Dharma is a very good expansion imo and again shows that the game is in good hands with DDRJake and Groogy. I'd like to hope they are able to take a good, objective look at the game and are willing to sacrifice some of the sacred cows of the game (like Wiz did with Stellaris) in order to make it better and turn this lumbering aggregation of various systems into something smooth and elegant, but honestly I don't see that happening until EU5 comes around five-ish years from now. Drone fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 18:44
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Drone posted:EU4 is still a good game, but it desperately, desperately needs to skip an expansion and instead focus that development time on a streamlining phase. EU4 is a lumbering giant of systems that have been tacked on over and over and over again over the years... some play well together, some don't, and in the end it's an awful mess for anyone coming to the game fresh. I've played Paradox games for fifteen years now and if someone were to ask me, "which title do you recommend I start with?" EU4 would be in dead-last place. Not because it's a bad game, but because it's nigh-impossible to start out with EU4 in the TYOOL 2018. I agree with this 1000x times over, but the problem is eu4 is 5 years old to stellaris 2. There’s a lot of inertia and fans for every dumb mechanic that still exists in the game - as can be demonstrated by the tile and multi-ftl defenders for stellaris. As much as I wish eu4 would get the gutting and streamlining it deserves (because it’s core is still very good), we’ll have to hope it comes in eu5 as you said.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:01
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I half wonder if the addition of estates to the base game is a step one of that process.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:13
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really queer Christmas posted:I agree with this 1000x times over, but the problem is eu4 is 5 years old to stellaris 2. There’s a lot of inertia and fans for every dumb mechanic that still exists in the game - as can be demonstrated by the tile and multi-ftl defenders for stellaris. As much as I wish eu4 would get the gutting and streamlining it deserves (because it’s core is still very good), we’ll have to hope it comes in eu5 as you said. Also stellaris had less DLC, and for some reason the paradox official community is full of the sort of people who own all the DLC but play with only mare nostrum enabled and insist that their game experience remain unchanged in every patch.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:25
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Pylons posted:I half wonder if the addition of estates to the base game is a step one of that process.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:25
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There's really a point in a game's lifecycle that if you're realizing you need to gut half the game to make it good and in line with your new vision maybe just make a sequel instead. Paradox games really love to skirt along the razors edge of this.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:27
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EU4 has a real problem with "what expansion did this feature come from again?" because every DLC is a potpourri of random poo poo Stellaris also kinda has this problem too but not quite (yet?) as bad, plus nothing other than maybe Utopia is a must-have
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Sep 7, 2018 19:28
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I just know I used to enjoy EU4, and somewhere along the line it started feeling like an impenetrable mess.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:31
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Pylons posted:I half wonder if the addition of estates to the base game is a step one of that process. Yeah, it's definitely a (minor) step in the right direction. As much as I think Paradox's continuous development cycle is a good thing, I also cannot fathom how they plan on breaking out of the current generation. Building a successor to a game like CK2 (which has been in constant post-release development for like seven years now) is going to be an absolutely monumental task, given that vanilla, launch-status CK3 will not be able to even scratch the surface of the depth of CK2 + expansions. Doubly so for EU5. It's like the Civ 5 to Civ 6 problem amplified by a factor of ten.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:31
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Drone posted:Yeah, it's definitely a (minor) step in the right direction. Yeah, CK3 couldn't possibly be "CK2 but better" on a realistic dev cycle. I have to imagine, if they ever make CK3, it'd have to diverge from the standard mapgame paradigm pretty immensely to justify stripping away so many features added by CK2 DLC. I know this is a ridiculous thought and it would never work but in the deepest recesses of my mind, there's a voice telling me that combining CK2 and Mount & Blade would produce the greatest video game ever made.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:45
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I think the most realistic way out of the current generation of Paradox is for the continuous dev cycle to cease when older titles hit their sunset phase (we already know CK2 only has one or two expansions left) and then sell CK3 not on the basis of its depth, but on the fact that by then CK3 will be the superior experience on future hardware due to it being based on a future hypothetical post-Clausewitz engine.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:47
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Pakled posted:Yeah, CK3 couldn't possibly be "CK2 but better" on a realistic dev cycle. I have to imagine, if they ever make CK3, it'd have to diverge from the standard mapgame paradigm pretty immensely to justify stripping away so many features added by CK2 DLC. I know this is a ridiculous thought and it would never work but in the deepest recesses of my mind, there's a voice telling me that combining CK2 and Mount & Blade would produce the greatest video game ever made. It's been said a hundred times before, and I'll keep saying it despite that it's almost certainly a bad idea, but: give me a game where the interface is your throne room and council halls. Let me interact with the world through in-game maps and reports and issue orders to underlings rather than enforce my magic will upon the world. If you can make this a first/third person game where you can actually walk around and interact with the area around you so much the better but I'll settle for stills and text.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:50
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Pakled posted:I know this is a ridiculous thought and it would never work but in the deepest recesses of my mind, there's a voice telling me that combining CK2 and Mount & Blade would produce the greatest video game ever made. This is one of those things where it seems like it makes so much sense on paper but would be really hard to pull off well in practice. It’s why the Total War series generally has a pretty lightweight strategic game - it’s easier to focus on one core aspect that everyone likes (in the TW example this would be the RTS combat) than try to juggle multiple different gameplay modes and make them all equally interesting. I feel like what would happen is that eventually the combat would just end up being an annoying busywork you have to engage with because the auto-resolve keeps killing your character. Honestly though I don’t know what they can/will do for CK3 if they make one because yeah, it’s going to be very hard for them to make something that doesn’t feel like a step back from CK2.
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Sep 7, 2018 19:57
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Kaza42 posted:It's been said a hundred times before, and I'll keep saying it despite that it's almost certainly a bad idea, but: What's that, your messenger didn't make it back with his report of the battle? Guess we don't know who won! (this is good)
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Sep 7, 2018 19:59
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Kaza42 posted:It's been said a hundred times before, and I'll keep saying it despite that it's almost certainly a bad idea, but:  Obliterati posted:What's that, your messenger didn't make it back with his report of the battle? Guess we don't know who won! You find out 2 months later when the enemy army shows up outside the city walls 
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Sep 7, 2018 20:15
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It's odd to consider CK3 and EU5, the prospects for the two sequels feel very different to me. With EU5, it seems like there's a lot of obvious choices regarding integrating EU4 DLC features, reworking stuff like trade. There's definitely opportunity for a sequel that just refines a lot of existing systems. I don't really know what CK3 would add or refine from CK2, I guess it'd be an opportunity for a very experimental sequel that departs a lot from what CK2 has already accomplished. It'd be cool to see a paradox take on the Civ culture victory, some sort of meaningful challenge and reward based around creating great monuments and being a patron of medieval art and culture, or being a centre of learning.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:23
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I think CK3 will probably find a way to more greatly diversify the gameplay differences between the different government types (to generalize: Feudal Catholic western Europe, tribal northeastern Europe, hordes, theocracies, iqtas, ect). edit: I also think more could be added in regards to ruling over your people; dealing with a serf situation compared to there being a a strong merchant middle class and other things like strong/rich/powerful local landholders. This could also play into the building 'wonders', being a patron of art, and whatnot like Red Bones said. AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 20:24
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Kaza42 posted:It's been said a hundred times before, and I'll keep saying it despite that it's almost certainly a bad idea, but: This was a kickstarter. It's been dark for two years, sorry. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/228222121/yes-your-grace
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Sep 7, 2018 20:27
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Drone posted:EU4 is still a good game, but it desperately, desperately needs to skip an expansion and instead focus that development time on a streamlining phase. EU4 is a lumbering giant of systems that have been tacked on over and over and over again over the years... some play well together, some don't, and in the end it's an awful mess for anyone coming to the game fresh. I've played Paradox games for fifteen years now and if someone were to ask me, "which title do you recommend I start with?" EU4 would be in dead-last place. Not because it's a bad game, but because it's nigh-impossible to start out with EU4 in the TYOOL 2018. seems fine to me, but ok. I sometimes think people take this "tacked on mess" thing into meme territory, but I agree that it can be impenetrable to new players. They should probably start on an earlier patch, maybe 1.19.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:27
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You can keep your sacred cows if you just killed the sailors and 1-2 more of the other half a dozen military currencies that don't interact with each other.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:37
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I mean really they wouldn't even need to do big changes to a hypothetical EU5 or CK3. Take the current game, integrate all the expansions, spend a year doing performance/engine improvements, content integration, bugfixing and rebalancing so it's all one coherent package. Even without any new content i'd day one buy that, and then they could just restart the dlc cycle anew. Anything is better than the Sims cycle of doing the same dlc on a new engine. Granted they could repackage Vicky 2 with a couple of interface/qol changes and sell it as Vicky 3 for $100 and i'd buy that too.
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Sep 7, 2018 20:58
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uPen posted:You can keep your sacred cows if you just killed the sailors and 1-2 more of the other half a dozen military currencies that don't interact with each other. I used to think sailors were the dumbest thing, but I've started appreciating them a little more lately. They limit how many ships I can send on missions, which is honestly probably a good thing, and they make losing your fleet more punishing since you can't just rebuild it constantly anymore. I like those effects even if sailors are nowhere near the best way to handle them. Army tradition, drilling, and innovativeness I will never ever like or appreciate however.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:05
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Senor Dog posted:seems fine to me, but ok. I sometimes think people take this "tacked on mess" thing into meme territory, but I agree that it can be impenetrable to new players. They should probably start on an earlier patch, maybe 1.19. i always wonder why people think eu4 is impenetrable, then i remember i've been playing 1.19 since it was current but then people have thought it was impenetrable going right back to 1.0 so mileage may vary i guess uPen posted:You can keep your sacred cows if you just killed the sailors and 1-2 more of the other half a dozen military currencies that don't interact with each other. you don't have to kill them, but you do have to integrate them somehow eu3 was really good at the end of its lifecycle because related systems were all interconnected. eu4 has been an exercise in progressively decoupling everything such that money, monarch points, and unit/fort stats are the main points of connection - but those are just inputs and outputs rather than interesting effects. to some degree that has made the game easier to comprehend, but i'm not sure it's improved the gameplay Jazerus fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Sep 7, 2018 |
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Sep 7, 2018 21:14
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Senor Dog posted:I used to think sailors were the dumbest thing, but I've started appreciating them a little more lately. They limit how many ships I can send on missions, which is honestly probably a good thing, and they make losing your fleet more punishing since you can't just rebuild it constantly anymore. I like those effects even if sailors are nowhere near the best way to handle them. I think sailors as a mechanic has never been the problem (although it's also not really the solution to the problem of the navy game being dull) really, it's just that the balance of them has very little middleground between "you cannot build more than a couple of ships" and "there are sailors?" I agree it's been almost vaguely interesting as a couple of times for me, but getting sailors for their fleets was a consistent issue for even the biggest countries of the period and that's not how it works in game really.
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Sep 7, 2018 21:18
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Professionalism would have been fine if it was just a reason to keep your armies at full maintenance during peacetime. As in, maintenance at full? You gain professionalism over time. Reduced? It decays. I don't know why it needed to come with a bunch of extra buttons.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:01
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Kaza42 posted:It's been said a hundred times before, and I'll keep saying it despite that it's almost certainly a bad idea, but: Someone post the Magna Mundi Reichstag interface picture thanks
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Sep 7, 2018 22:10
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Autonomous Monster posted:Professionalism would have been fine if it was just a reason to keep your armies at full maintenance during peacetime. As in, maintenance at full? You gain professionalism over time. Reduced? It decays. I don't know why it needed to come with a bunch of extra buttons. Tbh the decay rate just needs to be reduced a bit and drilling would be good anyway, but the idea of folding drilling back into normal military support is a genius idea. Just make any stationary unit at maximum strength and army maintenance with a general in home territory gain drill each month. Massive improvement from both a usefulness and playability angle.
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Sep 7, 2018 22:16
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