|
I think the idea with these trucks is that they are hybrids. The question is: Who's going to start building the infrastructure.
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 23:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 04:43 |
|
|
luxury handset posted:this is in that weird area between fixed route, externally powered vehicles but also i dont want to put down train tracks. there are places that do trolley buses as well, the problem being that your route is locked to your infrastructure but at least your infrastructure isn't as expensive to set up or take down Not really as you can have a diesel engine in addition to the electrical drive motors for electrical in urban and diesel in exurban. It's been a thing on trains for 50+ years and came to buses years ago.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2018 23:51
|
|
|
EnergizerFellow posted:Not really as you can have a diesel engine in addition to the electrical drive motors for electrical in urban and diesel in exurban. It's been a thing on trains for 50+ years and came to buses years ago. yeah and the fact that it's a decades old invention and still not exactly common in all parts of the world indicates that the problem with implementation is not lack of technological refinement
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 00:22
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:yeah and the fact that it's a decades old invention and still not exactly common in all parts of the world indicates that the problem with implementation is not lack of technological refinement Or alternatively our systems and institutions for making transit decisions might be flawed. That's another as likely possibility.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 00:56
|
|
|
Trabisnikof posted:Or alternatively our systems and institutions for making transit decisions might be flawed. That's another as likely possibility. you're agreeing with me here? it's not a problem that can be solved with more research
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 03:16
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:you're agreeing with me here? it's not a problem that can be solved with more research Hint: it's only cheaper because the externalities of puking millions of tons of greenhouses gases into the air every year aren't being paid for (yet). See also: any and every application of hydrocarbon-based internal combustion engines. You can rant about efficiency and "electricity comes from [bad thing] so it's just as bad" (naturally ignoring economies of scale for electric power generation versus a thousand little engines running around) all you want. After a certain point it will no longer be feasible to continue to do things the "easy" way just because it's cheaper. Arguably we've already reached that point, we just can't get people to accept it because god forbid we accept any other form of efficiency as a guide for decisions other than economic. ryonguy fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Sep 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 03:26
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:Hint: it's only cheaper because the externalities of puking millions of tons of greenhouses gases into the air every year aren't being paid for (yet). there's also the infrastructure costs involved in stringing wire everywhere and how that constrains your route planning with current battery technology as it is but you seem red faced and table pounding so i'll duck out of this thread for now
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 03:43
|
|
|
HootTheOwl posted:Am I dumb for thinking electric trucks would have been a better use of RnD than electric cars? Trucks have some pretty severe limitations for electric due to the fact batteries are so heavy, and even with plain diesel vehicles shippers are running up against road-legal weight constraints constantly. Lightweight battery research in general is slowly slowly chipping away at the constraint there, but it doesn't require that much direct-electric-truck stuff to handle that isn't already being taken care of in electric passenger vehicles, and electric buses. ryonguy posted:Hint: it's only cheaper because the externalities of puking millions of tons of greenhouses gases into the air every year aren't being paid for (yet).
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 03:54
|
|
|
There'd be a lot of transmission loss considering how many miles of road youd have to cable at distributive voltage, or build substations for, for this to be a feasible endeavor. Otherwise you'd be also putting even more weight onto the truck by it needing a big rear end transformer to work with transmission voltage. We already have electric trains, and they're very efficient in comparison to other modes of cargo. Best to have a national cargo train network connecting to localized distribution centers, and have the plug-in trucks charge at a centralized location or swapping batteries. But that requires serious infrastructure and logistical planning. It would only really work if all the rails and electrical generation and distribution were nationalized, otherwise you have a billion little contracts with every fucker scalping at every level and it turns into a tire fire except the tires are money. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Sep 8, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 11:10
|
|
|
Basically anything involving infrastructure and necessities works best when nationalised and properly funded. Who'da thought?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 13:16
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Basically anything involving infrastructure and necessities works best when nationalised and properly funded. Who'da thought?  Uh oh, someone said the N word!
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2018 13:18
|
|
|
today amazon advertised "Third Wave Water Mineral Enhanced Flavor Optimizing Coffee Brewing Water" to me and ive never been so insulted in my life this is apparently a startup product wtf
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2018 16:46
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:there's also the infrastructure costs involved in stringing wire everywhere and how that constrains your route planning with current battery technology as it is ryonguy posted:god forbid we accept any other form of efficiency as a guide for decisions other than economic quote:but you seem red faced and table pounding so i'll duck out of this thread for now Ghost Leviathan posted:Basically anything involving infrastructure and necessities works best when nationalised and properly funded. Who'da thought? ryonguy fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 9, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2018 19:30
|
|
|
i guess if you have functionally unlimited money to throw at your pet project it works people aren't "tech fetishists" if they point out your bad idea has obvious flaws. grow up
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2018 19:38
|
|
|
evilweasel posted:today amazon advertised "Third Wave Water Mineral Enhanced Flavor Optimizing Coffee Brewing Water" to me and ive never been so insulted in my life Its not 100% bullshit. Different PH and mineral levels effect how much coffee "stuff" dissolves into the water. See also: commercial bakers and breweries using softened/filtered/balanced water to achieve consistent results in their products.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2018 19:45
|
|
|
Sextro posted:Its not 100% bullshit. Different PH and mineral levels effect how much coffee "stuff" dissolves into the water. See also: commercial bakers and breweries using softened/filtered/balanced water to achieve consistent results in their products. I wanted to say something about the people of Flint going without clean water so that corporations can clean their machinery but I think you've all heard it before. Not to attack you. This is only tangentially related to the post I quoted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 00:40
|
|
|
anonumos posted:I wanted to say something about the people of Flint going without clean water so that corporations can clean their machinery but I think you've all heard it before. dont worry this third wave water didnt even have any water in it, you had to supply your own distilled water
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 00:49
|
|
|
Sextro posted:Its not 100% bullshit. Different PH and mineral levels effect how much coffee "stuff" dissolves into the water. See also: commercial bakers and breweries using softened/filtered/balanced water to achieve consistent results in their products. Dropping some powder into various water types is never going to lead to consistency, no matter what is contained in that powder. This is why commercial bakers and brewers don't do that: they have actual (expensive) water treatment equipment to make these corrections. Systems that are specific to the actual input water, which is tested and tuned regularly to ensure the output is consistent even when the input varies. The powder they are selling can't possibly compare. It's snake oil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 02:59
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Dropping some powder into various water types is never going to lead to consistency, no matter what is contained in that powder. They tell you to start from distilled. Distilled/reverse osmosis water + measured dose of minerals is no different than the water you get at the end of an expensive water treatment system.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 03:08
|
|
|
I envisioned electric trucks and autonomous trucks as a paired technology - you'd have to stop for long recharge periods, but you'd lose the need for sleep, meal, and restroom stops (and DOT required off duty time), and you'd only have to deal with idle time for a piece of capital equipment instead of idle time for both equipment and driver. Driving on the interstate is also one of the easier tasks for autonomous vehicles, and an interstate charging network could be focused on a few highly traveled routes. I also imagine that in the long term the amount of off duty time required by law for commercial truck drivers will continue to increase.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 04:33
|
|
|
A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I envisioned electric trucks and autonomous trucks as a paired technology - you'd have to stop for long recharge periods, but you'd lose the need for sleep, meal, and restroom stops (and DOT required off duty time), and you'd only have to deal with idle time for a piece of capital equipment instead of idle time for both equipment and driver. Driving on the interstate is also one of the easier tasks for autonomous vehicles, and an interstate charging network could be focused on a few highly traveled routes. I feel like you might want it semi-autonomous, in that you have some kind of hubs where the vehicles travel between autonomously but once they reach one closer to the destination than the next hub a person is required to handle final delivery (and equally a person is required to actually drive the load in to the starting point). Turn truck driving from long-haul into something more closely resembling a day job.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 07:10
|
|
|
A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I envisioned electric trucks and autonomous trucks as a paired technology - you'd have to stop for long recharge periods, but you'd lose the need for sleep, meal, and restroom stops (and DOT required off duty time), and you'd only have to deal with idle time for a piece of capital equipment instead of idle time for both equipment and driver. Driving on the interstate is also one of the easier tasks for autonomous vehicles, and an interstate charging network could be focused on a few highly traveled routes. So, electrifying existing freight rail lines with possible additional track then.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 13:22
|
|
|
A GIANT PARSNIP posted:I envisioned electric trucks and autonomous trucks as a paired technology - you'd have to stop for long recharge periods, but you'd lose the need for sleep, meal, and restroom stops (and DOT required off duty time), and you'd only have to deal with idle time for a piece of capital equipment instead of idle time for both equipment and driver. Driving on the interstate is also one of the easier tasks for autonomous vehicles, and an interstate charging network could be focused on a few highly traveled routes. I'm not sure the bold part is true. My dad drives an interstate truck for a living and his stories make it sound like driving on the interstate is hours of boredom (what you are likely thinking of) punctuated with a few minutes of insanity mostly because of other very stupid drivers who don't understand the limits of big, heavy trucks. Rare events are harder to incorporate in to a learned routine because they are rare. It might actually be easier to work with city driving cars because the relatively small sample of driving experience your software can get is more representative of what the (presumed) fleet you are designing for will see.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 16:11
|
|
|
MickeyFinn posted:I'm not sure the bold part is true. My dad drives an interstate truck for a living and his stories make it sound like driving on the interstate is hours of boredom (what you are likely thinking of) punctuated with a few minutes of insanity mostly because of other very stupid drivers who don't understand the limits of big, heavy trucks. Rare events are harder to incorporate in to a learned routine because they are rare. It might actually be easier to work with city driving cars because the relatively small sample of driving experience your software can get is more representative of what the (presumed) fleet you are designing for will see. any task which can be described as "hours of boredom" is ripe for automation. if anything, driving on the interstate is one of the easiest things a trucker has to do because it is mostly predictable
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 16:33
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:i guess if you have functionally unlimited money to throw at your pet project it works lmfao literally "you're mad and I'm calm guess I'm right" I thought you were leaving the thread anyways, but since you're still here, explain why continuing to use a method of power generation which is currently sending the planet into a death spiral for most current forms of life is cool and good because it's cheaper.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 16:35
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:any task which can be described as "hours of boredom" is ripe for automation. if anything, driving on the interstate is one of the easiest things a trucker has to do because it is mostly predictable This feels like you stopped reading the post you are replying to halfway through a sentence.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 16:36
|
|
|
ryonguy posted:I thought you were leaving the thread anyways, but since you're still here, explain why continuing to use a method of power generation which is currently sending the planet into a death spiral for most current forms of life is cool and good because it's cheaper. please explain exactly what your problem is with me and what you think my argument was because this is nonsense. i was talking about trolley wiring and somehow you think i'm defending coal or something? i dont know and i dont think you know either wizzardstaff posted:This feels like you stopped reading the post you are replying to halfway through a sentence. nah. just that when it comes to driving trucks, the easiest part is interstate driving. automating that part is trivial compared to something like parking a delivery vehicle on the street, or backing up to a loading dock, etc. e: here https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/02/uber-says-its-self-driving-trucks-will-be-good-for-truckers/551879/ quote:For one, Uber does not believe that self-driving trucks will be doing “dock to dock” runs for a very long time. They see a future in which self-driving trucks drive highway miles between what they call transfer hubs, where human drivers will take over for the last miles through complex urban and industrial terrain. uber is full of poo poo but this approach is reasonable - automate the easy parts (highway driving) and hand off to human drivers for the trickier parts quote:But people within the trucking industry have always been far more skeptical about the potential for job displacement. They have argued that truckers don’t just drive on highways. These jobs, in fact, require a wide variety of skills and the ability to operate in a host of unusual physical and social environments. Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Sep 10, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 17:06
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:uber is full of poo poo but this approach is reasonable - automate the easy parts (highway driving) and hand off to human drivers for the trickier parts Uber killed a person on a well-lit street with enough lead time that the car begged to brake and Uber wouldn’t let it. They don’t know dick
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 17:22
|
|
|
Trevor Hale posted:Uber killed a person on a well-lit street with enough lead time that the car begged to brake and Uber wouldn’t let it. They don’t know dick uber creating a dangerous machine in their fruitless race towards fiscal solvency isn't strictly related to whether or not the first and possibly only automatable portion of trucking is highway driving, since that is the most predictable and straightforward part of truck travel
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:any task which can be described as "hours of boredom" is ripe for automation. I disagree completely, this thread will never be automated.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:01
|
|
|
Trevor Hale posted:Uber killed a person on a well-lit street with enough lead time that the car begged to brake and Uber wouldn’t let it. They don’t know dick Uber killed someone bright enough to walk in front of a car on a well-lit street with nothing else around for miles. Maybe they're just doing a good job automating the Darwin awards?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:42
|
|
|
iajanus posted:Maybe they're just doing a good job automating the Darwin awards? you're thinking of tesla
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:44
|
|
|
iajanus posted:Uber killed someone bright enough to walk in front of a car on a well-lit street with nothing else around for miles. That seems pretty unfair since Uber's paid contractors are just as deadly to pedestrians. https://www.cnn.com/2016/02/21/us/michigan-kalamazoo-county-shooting-spree/index.html
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:45
|
|
|
Neo Rasa posted:That seems pretty unfair since Uber's paid contractors are just as deadly to pedestrians. Look, it's a complicated task to automate the slaughter of all humans, we're probably going to need to still have someone behind the wheel doing some of the work for a while. That's just common sense.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:54
|
|
|
iajanus posted:Uber killed someone bright enough to walk in front of a car on a well-lit street with nothing else around for miles. I forgot jaywalking was a capital address, Judge Dredd.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 18:58
|
|
|
luxury handset posted:any task which can be described as "hours of boredom" is ripe for automation. if anything, driving on the interstate is one of the easiest things a trucker has to do because it is mostly predictable Perhaps my post wasn't clear: the minutes of insanity are also on the interstate and are not related to maneuvering the truck in parking lots or whatever predictable hardship large trucks face. Again, this type of stuff is rare and unpredictable, that is why it is hard to automate. Automated factories go to poo poo when the input and outputs vary too much (a lesson Tesla apparently just learned), now imagine what will happen at 55 MPH in a sudden rain storm on I-10 and some dude decides to walk on the interstate because jerks aren't stopping to help him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
MickeyFinn posted:Perhaps my post wasn't clear: the minutes of insanity are also on the interstate and are not related to maneuvering the truck in parking lots or whatever predictable hardship large trucks face. no it was clear, it's just that as terrifying and high profile as they are, accidents on interstates are fairly uncommon. it's like airplane crashes - a truck demolishing a smaller car or some giant pile up get more news coverage but most accidents happen where travel is more frequent and paths cross more often http://blog.safeauto.com/the-5-most-common-places-for-car-accidents/ so just by raw probability, an automated truck is going to have an easier time on the highway because overall there is less danger and less bad driver behavior to account for than nearly anywhere else
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 19:56
|
|
|
MickeyFinn posted:It might actually be easier to work with city driving cars I don't think a self-driving car would survive 5 loving seconds in a big city. The taxi drivers alone would confuse its algorithms into oblivion. It would break down and just stay still while everyone honked and screamed at it. Maybe in one of those clean and peaceful European cities where people actually obey traffic laws, maybe.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 19:58
|
|
|
Pochoclo posted:I don't think a self-driving car would survive 5 loving seconds in a big city. The taxi drivers alone would confuse its algorithms into oblivion. It would break down and just stay still while everyone honked and screamed at it. I think that sped-up camera footage of a self-driving car in Delhi would be a thing of beauty when set to Yakkity-Sax. That poo poo seriously broke my brain the first time I traveled in it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 20:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 04:43 |
|
|
luxury handset posted:no it was clear, it's just that as terrifying and high profile as they are, accidents on interstates are fairly uncommon. it's like airplane crashes - a truck demolishing a smaller car or some giant pile up get more news coverage but most accidents happen where travel is more frequent and paths cross more often You are still missing the point about how hard it is to train anything for rare events. People don't spend years/decades working on ships to become captain or months training to drive trucks (this isn't school, it is the tandem driving afterward) because of the 99% of the time that it is really boring. Maybe trUber will do just fine by paying out for when their trucks run over people because it is pretty rare. In fact, now that I think about it, this is the most likely result. Pochoclo posted:I don't think a self-driving car would survive 5 loving seconds in a big city. The taxi drivers alone would confuse its algorithms into oblivion. It would break down and just stay still while everyone honked and screamed at it. My point is that while you are working on the software for a city car, you and your software will see tons of lovely cab drivers, which means (at the very least) you'll be aware of this problem with city driving. Testing your software for its response to a patch of flaming pumpkins on a two-lane mountain road in West Virginia is a lot harder if it never had occurred to you that it has happened.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2018 20:31
|
|