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Magil Zeal posted:There will be no system cap as of 12/6. Good thing we're talking about their current implementation then!
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Dec 4, 2018 00:46
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Good thing we're talking about their current implementation then! I brought it up because: PittTheElder posted:Have habitat requirements been changed in the new patch? I've experimented with them a few times, but at 10,000 minerals and 200 Influence a pop, plus a whole ascension perk, just to get a size 12 'world', my conclusion is that they're pretty garbage. I assumed "the new patch" means Le Guin, but I could have been mistaken. I'm pretty interested to see how Habitats work out in Le Guin, because the current limited scope of the game seems to suggest they'd be quite strong. I know in the Dev Clash the most powerful empire is building quite a few of them. Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 00:51
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Hi Paradox I'm sick and stuck at home and my wife is on a work trip, please let me play the game early to escape this misery. Thank you for your consideration. PS If I was playing the game I'd be too busy to post about the game.
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Dec 4, 2018 00:52
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PittTheElder posted:Have habitat requirements been changed in the new patch? I've experimented with them a few times, but at 10,000 minerals and 200 Influence a pop, plus a whole ascension perk, just to get a size 12 'world', my conclusion is that they're pretty garbage. The new patch will change them considerably. Hard to say how effective they'll be, though I think they look pretty interesting. In the new patch they look to serve a similar purpose as an ecumenopolis in that they lack the basic resource production but can have lots of the more advanced jobs.
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Dec 4, 2018 00:56
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The idea of using the Dyson Sphere/new black hole megastructure that gives minerals to extract raw resources and then process them on a habitat/ecumenopolis seems appealing. Outsource all* raw resource production to space and have only specialists and higher strata. *Probably not all, but maybe a good deal.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:02
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Magil Zeal posted:The idea of using the Dyson Sphere/new black hole megastructure that gives minerals to extract raw resources and then process them on a habitat/ecumenopolis seems appealing. Outsource all* raw resource production to space and have only specialists and higher strata.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:06
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Nessus posted:The thing I hate most about Heinlein is how he has entered internet political discourse when he was, while not a bad author, no better than Clarke or Asimov or so forth. Yet for some reason he gets quoted like a political thinker. Yeah but his wacky ideas about fascism eventually got us the Starship Troopers movie so it's a wash imo
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Dec 4, 2018 01:16
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I find Habs to be great as the are scaleable. If you put down a Mega-Structure you need to faff about for ages until it starts producing and you can only do one at a time. Meanwhile Habs come in bite sized chunks that once finished can immediately be thrown into work as you need them, pops permitting.Hell, once you got synths you can easily start snowballing by just using a set of 11 planets to insta transfer all the pops you need, then click down all of the buildings you want, be it solars or labs and be absolutely ~done~ with it. Once you get resource replicators you can start just looping around turning solar energy into matter. So while there is a higher influence cost, it isn't that onerous as you should be able to build one right after the other. Also, since they are limited in being only able to build one at a time per system, you can do a lot of parallel development.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:26
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It should be noted that habitats are only size 6 in Le Guin, 8 with Master Builders. But their special districts are pretty powerful IIRC, I think habitation districts are 10 housing or something like that? So they're probably still quite efficient empire-cap wise. Planet size has always been overrated anyway. Baronjutter posted:Hi Paradox I'm sick and stuck at home and my wife is on a work trip, please let me play the game early to escape this misery. Also the sixth is Independence day here in Finland, it would be nice if you could release in the morning and not in the afternoon. Call it a belated centennial gift.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:36
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PittTheElder posted:Have habitat requirements been changed in the new patch? I've experimented with them a few times, but at 10,000 minerals and 200 Influence a pop, plus a whole ascension perk, just to get a size 12 'world', my conclusion is that they're pretty garbage. They're size 6 (upgradeable a little with perks) with an alloy upkeep with supercharged districts and buildings. Which is amazing because Empire Size is based on Districts, so the more bang you get per district, the more bang you get per empire size. Fun factoid I picked up from the various streams: Unless my math is off, a single fully built-up Ringworld (all 4 sections) is by itself 200 empire size. The default before penalties kick in is 30. You could abandon the entire rest of your empire and live like a Fallen Empire and you'd still be eating size penalties.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:50
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Staltran posted:It should be noted that habitats are only size 6 in Le Guin, 8 with Master Builders. But their special districts are pretty powerful IIRC, I think habitation districts are 10 housing or something like that? So they're probably still quite efficient empire-cap wise. Didn't know that about habitats, but I agree about planet size. DatonKallandor posted:Fun factoid I picked up from the various streams: Unless my math is off, a single fully built-up Ringworld (all 4 sections) is by itself 200 empire size. The default before penalties kick in is 30. You could abandon the entire rest of your empire and live like a Fallen Empire and you'd still be eating size penalties. There are some society techs later on that increase your admin cap later on going by some comments in the Dev clash, no idea by how much though. Nevertheless I believe any perks that increase your administrative cap are very potent assuming all empires are going to go a bit over at some point, given that it simultaneously reduces all the various penalties going over your admin cap hits you with.
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Dec 4, 2018 01:59
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Are there still any buildings that produce jobs per pop?
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Dec 4, 2018 02:04
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Magil Zeal posted:Didn't know that about habitats, but I agree about planet size. Some one also did some huge effort post on habitats vs. ringworlds vs. encumenopolisisisis over on Reddit but I don't think it dawned on them that each of those is probably meant to fill a different role so one isn't inherently better than the others unless you're going for something in particular. Also, it has been said over and over again that the empire size cap isn't actually a cap you're meant to stay within. Eventually you will need to exceed it but it's expected that whatever 'penalties' you incur are being off set by even greater gains from whatever set you over the limit to begin with. So no, you shouldn't just expand willy-nilly without paying attention, but you are expected to keep expanding.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:10
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OwlFancier posted:Are there still any buildings that produce jobs per pop? I think they said they got rid of that mechanic as it wasn't intuitive. The flip side is that they greatly reduced pops per building tile unlocks.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:27
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I was more concerned that it's going to be very easy to end up with more pops than jobs. Particularly if you're using robots.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:29
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OwlFancier posted:I was more concerned that it's going to be very easy to end up with more pops than jobs. I get it from a purely game-design perspective gating buildings behind population, but it also doesn't make any sense to me because if you have unemployed pops why should you need to wait to get more pops to unlock the ability to employ them? I've been seeing a lot of youtubers sitting around with 4 unemployed pops waiting for that 5th so they can build a building that only ends up employing 2 of them. There's no point to building buildings you don't have the workforce to work as they'll just sit there costing you upkeep. But there seem to be just enough mechanics around building-slot-unlocking that modding out the pop requirements might have a few problematic consequences. But it does feel weird to be in a situation where you want more research, labs employ 2 pops, you have 2 unemployed pops, but need 3 more to let you build it. "It represents the infastructure needed to support the building..." nah, the upkeep represents that. If I've got the consumer goods and energy to run the lab, let me build the lab.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:33
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Don't upgraded buildings like 2nd-tier alloy foundries and research labs provide 5 jobs? I haven't seen anyone have the "more pops than jobs" problem early on, and surely if they do they can just build districts rather than waiting for building gates? And if they're at the point where they're full on districts surely they have 2nd-tier buildings.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:39
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Baronjutter posted:I get it from a purely game-design perspective gating buildings behind population, but it also doesn't make any sense to me because if you have unemployed pops why should you need to wait to get more pops to unlock the ability to employ them? I've been seeing a lot of youtubers sitting around with 4 unemployed pops waiting for that 5th so they can build a building that only ends up employing 2 of them. There's no point to building buildings you don't have the workforce to work as they'll just sit there costing you upkeep. But there seem to be just enough mechanics around building-slot-unlocking that modding out the pop requirements might have a few problematic consequences. I wonder if it'd be better to have all your buildings slots unlocked from the start, but a progressively higher EC upkeep for each building.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:39
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OwlFancier posted:I was more concerned that it's going to be very easy to end up with more pops than jobs. Particularly if you're using robots. If you go all city districts, you probably will. However, it looks like you get a building slot every 5 pops, and the upgraded buildings I've seen give 5 jobs, so if you have/are willing to purchase the strategic resources for upgraded buildings you can definitely keep unemployment down.
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Dec 4, 2018 02:48
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It's more specifically because you have varying pop housing requirements, it seems like it's going to be difficult to balance it such that you can have pops which use much less space with also having things for them to do in such a way that normal pops aren't in a position where they have vastly more jobs than people. Like if both robots and people do the same jobs but you can fit even twice as many robots into the housing space that's a major disparity in how jobs work for societies that use those two pop types. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it suggests that either one is going to be always looking for more population or the other is always going to be looking for more jobs. Without some kind of mechanic that lets you put surplus population to use. Not saying it's gonna be terrible just wondering how it works. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 03:03
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You'll just have to either conquer the alien or blame the Blorg immigrants for taking all the jobs.
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Dec 4, 2018 03:18
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OwlFancier posted:It's more specifically because you have varying pop housing requirements, it seems like it's going to be difficult to balance it such that you can have pops which use much less space with also having things for them to do in such a way that normal pops aren't in a position where they have vastly more jobs than people. The way I figure it, if most of your workforce is robots that take a quarter the housing space, that just means you have a few fewer city districts and a few more mining districts.
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Dec 4, 2018 03:26
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I see where they were going originally with "infrastructure" opening up building slots, it's only very slightly removed from pops but it was an attempt to address the kinda nonsense current relationship between pops, jobs, and building slots. The problem with the current system is that it allows us to directly invest in a great density in housing, but not a great density of jobs. It's like we can build apartment towers but we can't build office towers, only little office parks. Jobs end up scaling with fancy resources but it feels like an artificial limitation. Space for white-collar jobs is never the issue, it's about societal resources to fund those jobs, which building upkeeps and resource inputs already cover. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 03:31
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I think the suggestion is that white collar work isn't actually work in the context of space empires bashing each other with ships. If it helps, imagine that "unemployed" actually means "employed in such a way as to be intolerably alienated from the product of one's labour, thus producing discontent" To which the only solution is clearly to be employed in state controlled heavy industry, agriculture, a design bureau, or creating glorious works of culture for the ministry of agitprop. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 03:49
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One of the lucky duck early birds has posted a bit of a review, or at least initial problems with on-release 2.2. My heart is sinking regarding the terrible performance he's reporting  Tile-death was supposed to make things better!https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/a2vyq6/stellaris_22_preview_the_bad_stuff/ I don't think any of us weren't ready for this to be a bit rough around the edges, it all sounds like some fairly simple bugfixing, optimizing, and balance tweaking for the coming patches.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:15
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:This reminds me how I wish ship design was more interesting than "you have x slots and only one of two (or three if you are lucky) things to put in them (armor/shields/hull)". I want to be able to sacrifice armor or shields for the ability to mount another gun or go faster. Instead every ship in the game is practically the same except for weapon module size/type. I was just thinking about that. Opening up the slots so that you can jam pack something with thrusters or weapons or utility modules might help make things more interesting. Also more varied utility modules, like Splicer said, would be good- especially if troop modules became a thing, or things like stealth devices and corresponding detector modules. Also, I wonder about the possibilities of not having all your ships turn around and join a battle if one gets fired on. Setting your fleet stance to passive instead of aggressive and letting your fleet coast right past a station on their way to another system, or just allowing one or two of your ships to get picked off while the rest of the fleet moves on could be a good way to encourage smaller, faster fleets that operate inside enemy territory- maybe they do less damage because you've traded some armor slots for extra thrusters, but they can get back and start disrupting enemy trade routes and knocking out key stations. The SMAC unit designer seems pretty basic in some ways now, but it did let you create really specialized units that served specific roles. A modernized version of that with Stellaris's multiple classes of weapons could be really satisfying.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:19
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Baronjutter posted:One of the lucky duck early birds has posted a bit of a review, or at least initial problems with on-release 2.2. My heart is sinking regarding the terrible performance he's reporting From the article: quote:I’m not sure what the problem is. Despite having the resources, AI empires are not building things. They had alloy income, decent science, but were just not actually building things, letting their planets sit with nothing going on. I once saw a vassal of mine, just switching governors every 3 days in game. I gave them tonnes of resources to expand and they never did. This sounds suspiciously familiar.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:21
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I'm not an AI programmer so there must be some good reasons, but I can't wrap my head around after so many years wiz & co still being unable to make an AI that just actually builds things.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:22
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The 2.0 AI was really horrible and a huge step back from the previous patch. I was somewhat expecting the same with 2.2. And the endgame micro being just as bad is  but hey, only a few more days.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:23
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Baronjutter posted:One of the lucky duck early birds has posted a bit of a review, or at least initial problems with on-release 2.2. My heart is sinking regarding the terrible performance he's reporting Just remember, the cycle of Stellaris patches: 1) The new version sounds great, so you wait to play it 2) The version is out, but there are some bugs, so you wait for the bugfix 3) The bugfix dealt with the bugs, but they're discussing a patch soon that will address balance issues, so you wait for the patch. 4) The patch comes out, and the game is great! You see a developer diary on the next version 5) Goto 1 Baronjutter posted:I'm not an AI programmer so there must be some good reasons, but I can't wrap my head around after so many years wiz & co still being unable to make an AI that just actually builds things. To be fair to Paradox, I don't think I've ever played a 4x game that had a genuinely good AI. It's one of those problems humans are much, much better at than computers. That said, I was curious about how much they could do with the AI given that it seems like the design was barely finalized a month ago and apparently even human players often suffer economic woes with the new system. Bremen fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 04:23
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The 2.0 AI was really horrible and a huge step back from the previous patch. I was somewhat expecting the same with 2.2. This was my fear from seeing the new planet system. You still need to fiddle with them to remember to build that new building on the slot that opened up, you'll still need to generally audit and re-district conquered planets to better fit your empire, and you'll still have the issue where more and more player management time has less and less impact on your bottom line yet it all still adds up in the end. What I have heard though is that the "micro" now is at least more interesting. You're not just wearing out your wrist clicking upgrade 50 times, you're trading resources and re-speccing planets and making actual choices.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:26
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Odd, I thought Sectors were going to work the way he suggested (created automatically at game start, more or less fixed if perhaps renameable etc.)
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Dec 4, 2018 04:30
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They were apparently but they changed it. Frankly I don't know how you fix it without player input. Personally I would have gone with the pregenerated cluster mechanic but you can spend influence to push the borders around a bit.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:32
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OwlFancier posted:They were apparently but they changed it.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:39
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The borders are pretty apparent on 1.0x in my opinion, at least for stars. The probably sort of stems from the fact that planets are so much more important than stars economically, so basing sectors around planets makes sense in terms of coming from the old sectors. Personally treating them like eu4 states I think would work just fine, but there might be some interactions with the number of sectors you have mechanically, and having them base around your planets keeps you from 'wasting' them on relatively worthless empty space.
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Dec 4, 2018 04:43
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prefect posted:I have decided the correct fleet has 16 corvettes, 8 destroyers, 4 cruisers, 2 battleships, and 1 titan. 32 corvettes, friend. your fleet will die from swarming with such an anemic front line it's like going hard-in on artillery in eu4 without enough infantry to hold the front Baronjutter posted:I'm not an AI programmer so there must be some good reasons, but I can't wrap my head around after so many years wiz & co still being unable to make an AI that just actually builds things. particularly when glavius can sit down for 2 hours a day while apparently doing relatively little work at his actual job, and meticulously weight everything such that the AI plays well. it's a hard problem that requires a lot of effort, but it's solvable they should hire him and gulli imo Jazerus fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Dec 4, 2018 |
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Dec 4, 2018 04:50
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Bremen posted:Just remember, the cycle of Stellaris patches: I was thinking this pretty much verbatim. It's the same drat cycle but I can't help but keep following this game and coming back. For what it's worth, I've found that skipping the story-content releases until the major-gameplay-content releases are dropped (e.g. Leviathans before Utopia, Synthetic Dawn before Apocalypse, and now Distant Stars before Megacorp) then binging on double the content at once is incredibly enjoyable. Between wrestling with the new management strategy and encountering new flavor stuff, the game feels incredibly fresh.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:16
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Nessus posted:The thing I hate most about Heinlein is how he has entered internet political discourse when he was, while not a bad author, no better than Clarke or Asimov or so forth. Yet for some reason he gets quoted like a political thinker. That’s because he’s very quotable: he had a near-perfect sense for what would stick in the mind (“specialisation is for insects” is a great rant and “an armed society is a polite society” is a brilliantly neat encapsulation of the idea). The fact that he was objectively wrong about a lot of this stuff doesn’t make it any less memorable.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:17
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Beefeater1980 posted:That’s because he’s very quotable: he had a near-perfect sense for what would stick in the mind (“specialisation is for insects” is a great rant and “an armed society is a polite society” is a brilliantly neat encapsulation of the idea). I enjoyed the portrayal of Libertarianism in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress to boil down to "Welcome to Freedom, the space vodka is $0.99/liter, but that space air ain't free so either join a polyamourous clan or die within the first 48 hours" to be pretty accurate on a smaller, non-corporate-hegemonic scale.
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Dec 4, 2018 05:35
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I'm still seeing most youtubers absolutely terrified of going over admin cap. No one had a problem with the creeping unity and tech penalties from expansion before, but now that it's a very visible cap they freak out and refuse to expand until they figure out how to increase that cap.
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Dec 4, 2018 06:21
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