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Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

Cocoa Crispies posted:

or the right answer, an end to personal automotive transportation being a required part of life in much of the industrialized world

That answer is way to wholesome.

E: I say, while sitting on a train to take me home to the countryside from the city where I work, getting ready to pedal home on my bike for the last 2 kilometers while the train advertises it's use of carbon neutral power.
I remember I barely pay 250 Euro for a 6 month all access ticket to regional public transport.

Combat Theory has issued a correction as of 14:11 on Dec 5, 2018

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Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Combat Theory posted:

That answer is way to wholesome.

Not if we achieve it by the systematic prosecution and guillotining of everyone who purchases a vehicle with capabilities exceeding their day-to-day needs.

Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug

Combat Theory posted:

That answer is way to wholesome.

E: I say, while sitting on a train to take me home to the countryside from the city where I work, getting ready to pedal home on my bike for the last 2 kilometers while the train advertises it's use of carbon neutral power.
I remember I barely pay 250 Euro for a 6 month all access ticket to regional public transport.

that rules

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006
Young Orc

Powershift posted:

Yeah, so is using it in the hot or cold or other things.

Some dudes put 400k miles on a model S and it's on it's third battery. the first one lasted 194,000 miles and only had 6% degredation, but the use of superchargers fried it.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

"Tesloop estimates that a Lincoln Town Car or Mercedes GLS class combined maintenance cost to be around $88,500 ($0.22/mile) and $98,900 ($0.25/mile) respectively over 400,000 miles."

No way would an old Town Car cost that much to maintain, that's ridiculous. Even a GLS wouldn't cost that much.

Especially if it was done in three years.

Katt
Nov 14, 2017

underage at the vape shop posted:

Poor countries could grow those crops too though and bring wealth to the area

Yeah because when poor countries have something the west wants it brings wealth to the poor areas.

More like they get to toil the lands to grow like... inedible Petrol-synth-root for their local masters.

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 11, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick

Nap Ghost

Sir Tonk posted:

"Tesloop estimates that a Lincoln Town Car or Mercedes GLS class combined maintenance cost to be around $88,500 ($0.22/mile) and $98,900 ($0.25/mile) respectively over 400,000 miles."

No way would an old Town Car cost that much to maintain, that's ridiculous. Even a GLS wouldn't cost that much.

Especially if it was done in three years.

if you read on, they replaced the battery pack twice, both under warranty

so the $.05/mile stat is fudged

Lord Stimperor
Jun 13, 2018

I'm a lovable meme.

Shifty Pony posted:

wonder if the solution might not be for a manufacturer to partner up with a rental company to offer a bank of a few weeks of an equivalent ICE loaner when you purchase.



Don't know which one it was but when I was browsing manufacturers, one of them did this. You buy their EV you get a loaner a couple of weeks free of charge

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK
Sep 11, 2008

Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola

-Cheap Trick

Nap Ghost

Sir Tonk posted:

"Tesloop estimates that a Lincoln Town Car or Mercedes GLS class combined maintenance cost to be around $88,500 ($0.22/mile) and $98,900 ($0.25/mile) respectively over 400,000 miles."

No way would an old Town Car cost that much to maintain, that's ridiculous. Even a GLS wouldn't cost that much.

Especially if it was done in three years.

oh even better

they posted a google doc with all the breakdowns


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HqBIOtNsYPalG51nAw_nubgskv4TQPGx8WhPZO4a_U8/edit?usp=drivesdk

Lote
Aug 5, 2001

Place your bets
My grandfathers 15 year old Cadillac Fleetwood had an oil leak that they couldn’t find that burned a quart of oil a week. That thing was a garage queen in its end years.

Hub Cat
Aug 3, 2011

Trunk Lover


This doc is such fudged bullshit they figure full price for all the maintenance and gas on the gas cars but the teslas got a bunch of free warranty maintenance and free lifetime supercharging.

Karl Sharks
Feb 20, 2008

The Immortal Science of Sharksism-Fininism

underage at the vape shop posted:

Poor countries could grow those crops too though and bring wealth to the area

doesn't focusing on cash crops in poor countries end up with them not having enough food anyways? lol

p sure there's a few issues with that over sustenance farming for poor countries

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006
Young Orc

Lote posted:

My grandfathers 15 year old Cadillac Fleetwood had an oil leak that they couldnt find that burned a quart of oil a week. That thing was a garage queen in its end years.

should've spent $90k fixing it!

Sir Tonk
Apr 18, 2006
Young Orc

Hub Cat posted:

This doc is such fudged bullshit they figure full price for all the maintenance and gas on the gas cars but the teslas got a bunch of free warranty maintenance and free lifetime supercharging.

yeah and if you're doing 400,000 miles in three years you're doing alot of highway miles. the town car gets close to 30mpg on the highway, not 20

oh and noone does oil changes at 3,000 miles unless theyre crazy, suggested has moved to 6,000 for most cars if not higher

edit, lol the "fuel" cost for the teslas is only a few grand less than for the gas cars

Sir Tonk has issued a correction as of 15:49 on Dec 5, 2018

sullat
Jan 9, 2012

Katt posted:

The problem being that if we start using plants for vehicle fuel. The price of those plants will go up and farmers will start growing those instead of food and it will greatly effect people in poor countries.

Pretty sure this already started happening about 10 years ago. Crop prices were insanely high, in part because of stuff like this. Crop prices have since crashed, fortunately/unfortunately depending on who you are.

Shageletic
Jul 25, 2007

sullat posted:

Pretty sure this already started happening about 10 years ago. Crop prices were insanely high, in part because of stuff like this. Crop prices have since crashed, fortunately/unfortunately depending on who you are.

The commodities prices bubble. AFAIK it has more to do with animal feed and financial speculation but yeah you can link it to whats helping brazil o be so unstable for example

Captain_Maclaine
Sep 30, 2001

Every moment I'm alive, I pray for death!

underage at the vape shop posted:

Poor countries could grow those crops too though and bring wealth to the area

Ah yes, because resource extraction has had such a stellar record at uplifting the developing world so far.

Morphix
May 21, 2003

by Reene

Powershift posted:

Yeah, so is using it in the hot or cold or other things.

Some dudes put 400k miles on a model S and it's on it's third battery. the first one lasted 194,000 miles and only had 6% degredation, but the use of superchargers fried it.

https://electrek.co/2018/07/17/tesla-model-s-holds-up-400000-miles-3-years/

so here is what I don't understand

teslas super chargers are like 300v

Porsche is saying they're using a 800v charger

HOW

I mean how the gently caress are they pulling that off without completely destroying the battery

A Man With A Plan
Mar 29, 2010
Fallen Rib
I'm going to assume some combination of "having tons of very good engineers" and "not being in a perpetual cash crunch to do research".

Also, does porsche participate in Formula E?

bring back old gbs
Feb 28, 2007

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Morphix posted:

so here is what I don't understand

teslas super chargers are like 300v

Porsche is saying they're using a 800v charger

HOW

I mean how the gently caress are they pulling that off without completely destroying the battery

how indeed! (they arent)

tesla Superchargers bypass the charging circuit entirely to dump voltage straight into the batteries until they're reporting 375 volts. Usually that circuit makes sure each of the thousands of individual cell only discharges to ~3.70v, and charges to a max of ~4.20v (lol nice) . You don't want a Lithium cell to go above 4.2 volts because it starts to degrade the chemicals inside and increases the resistance inside the battery. This still means the battery cell works, it just gets hotter when it discharges now because of the resistance, and will discharge faster than when it was a new cell. Too much resistance in your batteries leads to heating up which leads to less efficiency which leads to more resistance which leads to exploding.

That's all good for one cell but Teslas have 2000+ per car and it takes quite a circuit to keep 2000+ individual cells charged up to 4.2v, cells dont discharge at equal rates due to manufacturing discrepancies. The better the cells, the better and more consistent the discharge rate. It's not huge but you could discharge two Lithium cells with the same load and see at the end one cell is 3.82v and the other is 3.84v. If you blindly charge the entire battery to 4.20v using 3.82v as the low level then the other cell has actually been overcharged to 4.22v. This isn't a big deal at first because 0.2v is easily balanced by the charger, it monitors every cell individually (in Teslas case probably battery modules, not individual 18650 cells) and will give one cell 0.2v less than the others. Which is why people tend to put a little * beside teslas when they make fun of their absolute dogshit implementation of technology. The charge circuit seems to be good.

But what if you discharged your batteries, and recharged them with ZERO balancing? That 0.2v discrepancy would never actually get balanced back out again and would begin to compound. Eventually there could be a .5, .8, or an entire voltage of difference between your battery cells. At that point even if you tried to charge the battery traditionally those cells are NEVER going to properly balance again, you've essentially hosed the battery by letting the charge levels of the cells get so out of sync. Rather than monitoring individual cells, the Supercharger just looks at TOTAL battery voltage, so it just pumps power in until the battery reads back as 375 volts and then its "charged" regardless of the state of any individual cell, whether some are 3.9v, 4.12v, 4.28v, it doesn't give a poo poo as long as the total voltage is right. That's very dumb and bad.

EDIT: according to google a model S battery is composed of: 9 bricks X 3.6 volts X 11 moduals = 356.4 volts.

bring back old gbs has issued a correction as of 17:57 on Dec 5, 2018

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005

Morphix posted:

so here is what I don't understand

teslas super chargers are like 300v

Porsche is saying they're using a 800v charger

HOW

I mean how the gently caress are they pulling that off without completely destroying the battery

Sure, the higher voltage makes it efficient to draw more power from the charger, and while that is no doubt why Porsche does it they very likely back off the power quickly as the battery heats up, which afaik is the only substantial problem with charging quickly. I.e. they get one of those good x minutes (for x in that 10-20 minute range where it is convenient) of charging -> y miles of range deals where however 2x minutes -> 1.5y miles and so on.

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy

Wachter posted:

why can't we just feed live animals directly into the engine, kind of like Blood Drive

The greatest evidence against the existence of souls and spirits is that we haven't exploited them. Souls existing would represent a nearly limitless supply of energy that we could tap into and yet we haven't. Checkmate atheists.

underage at the vape shop posted:

Poor countries could grow those crops too though and bring wealth to the area

This didn't work out so great for Bolivia and Peru for actual food crops like quinoa. It simply priced them out of their food.

Admiral Ray has issued a correction as of 18:27 on Dec 5, 2018

Morphix
May 21, 2003

by Reene
So if I understand the both of you correctly,

Neither Tesla nor Porsche do a non-stop 300/800v charge, it's tapered entirely by the battery/heat issues.

So okay, but does that mean Porsche has almost 3x the battery cells in their car to achieve the 800v, or is there something else I'm missing here. Because when I hear 800v I think 3 phase industrial power and my mind starts reeling about normal loving people handling connectors with that much power going through them.

Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

You can have different voltage levels with the same physical number of cells in theory, just by changing the serial and parallel layout.

Porsche is not using vape cells though to my knowledge but a small number of custom made bag type cells. They have a much better volumetric efficiency and adapt better to sandwich cooling solutions

E. some similar designs by audi





Combat Theory has issued a correction as of 18:36 on Dec 5, 2018

comedyblissoption
Mar 15, 2006

just handwaving in the air haphazardly and saying let the developing world grow biofuels to fix climate change and poverty doesn't actually work at all btw

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/ProPublica/status/1067425340941901830

quote:

In the mid-2000s, Western nations, led by the United States, began drafting environmental laws that encouraged the use of vegetable oil in fuels — an ambitious move to reduce carbon dioxide and curb global warming. But these laws were drawn up based on an incomplete accounting of the true environmental costs. Despite warnings that the policies could have the opposite of their intended effect, they were implemented anyway, producing what now appears to be a calamity with global consequences.

The tropical rainforests of Indonesia, and in particular the peatland regions of Borneo, have large amounts of carbon trapped within their trees and soil. Slashing and burning the existing forests to make way for oil-palm cultivation had a perverse effect: It released more carbon. A lot more carbon. NASA researchers say the accelerated destruction of Borneo’s forests contributed to the largest single-year global increase in carbon emissions in two millenniums, an explosion that transformed Indonesia into the world’s fourth-largest source of such emissions. Instead of creating a clever technocratic fix to reduce American’s carbon footprint, lawmakers had lit the fuse on a powerful carbon bomb that, as the forests were cleared and burned, produced more carbon than the entire continent of Europe. The unprecedented palm-oil boom, meanwhile, has enriched and emboldened many of the region’s largest corporations, which have begun using their newfound power and wealth to suppress critics, abuse workers and acquire more land to produce oil.

Harold Stassen
Jan 24, 2016

Lord Stimperor posted:

Don't know which one it was but when I was browsing manufacturers, one of them did this. You buy their EV you get a loaner a couple of weeks free of charge

following suit, in true disruptive fashion Tesla will give loaners “free of charge” except that will just mean the batteries are dead :ssh: you won’t care, I love car.

Dr. Fraiser Chain
May 18, 2004

Redlining my shit posting machine


Lol Capitalism is poison

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

spero che tu stia bene

Love the char though.

bring back old gbs
Feb 28, 2007

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Morphix posted:

So if I understand the both of you correctly,

Neither Tesla nor Porsche do a non-stop 300/800v charge, it's tapered entirely by the battery/heat issues.

So okay, but does that mean Porsche has almost 3x the battery cells in their car to achieve the 800v, or is there something else I'm missing here. Because when I hear 800v I think 3 phase industrial power and my mind starts reeling about normal loving people handling connectors with that much power going through them.

What I meant was that they are pulling it off, but most likely destroying or seriously shortening the lifespan of the batteries in the process. Teslas are powered by thousands of cells but they're linked together in parallel and series bricks, and then the voltages of the individual cells add up to the total 375v output at however many amps.

And if Porsche says they're using an 800v charger that's loving nuts, but they may have developed a cell that can be charged at 800v even though it'll only be discharging 400v to power the motors like a Tesla. Usually it's the opposite and discharge rates are much higher than charge rates but like that other guy said, they're rolling their own packs and maybe they employ actual chemists to develop new technology instead of piggybacking on existing laptop cells.

Harold Stassen
Jan 24, 2016
lol I remember deliberately making series of circuits that would blow in the educational program Crocodile Clips, I never guessed I would be able to directly parlay that meta gaming experience into a career designing the future of transport

Happy Thread
Jul 10, 2005

by Fluffdaddy
Plaster Town Cop

Sir Tonk posted:

oh and noone does oil changes at 3,000 miles unless theyre crazy, suggested has moved to 6,000 for most cars if not higher

lol are you trying to summon ornicus or whoever

Big Mad Drongo
Nov 10, 2006

comedyblissoption posted:

just handwaving in the air haphazardly and saying let the developing world grow biofuels to fix climate change and poverty doesn't actually work at all btw


Anyone who claims capitalism and responsible environmental decisions can peacefully co-exist needs to be repeatedly smacked with this article and others like it.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

Sir Tonk posted:


oh and noone does oil changes at 3,000 miles unless theyre crazy, suggested has moved to 6,000 for most cars if not higher


Yeah just read what your car manual says and do that, not what the rear end in a top hat at jiffy lube puts on a window sticker. I think my last 3 cars all said 7-10k

Wachter
Mar 23, 2007

You and whose knees?

Admiral Ray posted:

The greatest evidence against the existence of souls and spirits is that we haven't exploited them. Souls existing would represent a nearly limitless supply of energy that we could tap into and yet we haven't. Checkmate atheists.

That's very true. Deepak Chopra types talk a big game about positive energy but they have to plug their iPhones into a wall socket same as the rest of us

Darkman Fanpage
Jul 4, 2012

Admiral Ray posted:

The greatest evidence against the existence of souls and spirits is that we haven't exploited them. Souls existing would represent a nearly limitless supply of energy that we could tap into and yet we haven't. Checkmate atheists.


This didn't work out so great for Bolivia and Peru for actual food crops like quinoa. It simply priced them out of their food.

look at this idiot not knowing how indulgences work

Admiral Ray
May 17, 2014

Proud Musk and Dogecoin fanboy

Big Mad Drongo posted:

Anyone who claims capitalism and responsible environmental decisions can peacefully co-exist needs to be repeatedly smacked with this article and others like it.

"We'll just use rapacious greed to exploit irreplaceable forests sustainably!"

Morphix
May 21, 2003

by Reene

bring back old gbs posted:


And if Porsche says they're using an 800v charger that's loving nuts,

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/heres-why-the-porsche-mission-e-charges-into-the-future-with-800-volt-technology

this makes it sound like they're doing two x 400v at the same time. but I'm still confused

Qwijib0
Apr 10, 2007

Who needs on-field skills when you can dance like this?

Fun Shoe
I can't find specifics on a 3 pack, but S packs use these TI parts integrated into the cell (http://www.ti.com/product/BQ76PL536A-Q1) to manage voltage and temperature even when supercharging, and self balance among groups of cells utilizing bleed resistors as necessary.

The degradation from supercharging is not a function of bypassing the built in charge circuit, but rather lithium deposits that occur at high C rates of charging. This can be mitigated somewhat by carefully monitoring temperature and adjusting the charge curve appropriately. It is possible that Audi's chemistry will be less susceptible than this, but we won't know till there's several years of data.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

underage at the vape shop posted:

Yeah I get that fossil fuels have to go but its going to suck when you can't buy a cheap 10 year old car anymore. It's going to especially suck for poor people who will have to get poo poo loans to get a reliable car once ICE are gone. Unless we miraculously pull some crazy new battery tech out of our collective asses.

Nah you can already buy 4 year old EVs for under $10k with +90% of capacity left. As long as battery tech keeps improving there will be a cheap EVs.

Trabisnikof
Dec 24, 2005

Shageletic posted:

The commodities prices bubble. AFAIK it has more to do with animal feed and financial speculation but yeah you can link it to whats helping brazil o be so unstable for example

40% of US corn is made into ethanol for fuel.

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Powershift
Nov 23, 2009



I'm the Lincoln Town car CV Axle

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