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The fourth crusade is one of the spots of knowledge of the east that i have. As well as the reign of Justinian and a smattering of constantine but there's a huge gap there in the latter days of the empire and after constantine
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Feb 16, 2019 20:53
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Augustus Gloop
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Feb 16, 2019 22:59
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basic hitler posted:The fourth crusade is one of the spots of knowledge of the east that i have. As well as the reign of Justinian and a smattering of constantine but there's a huge gap there in the latter days of the empire and after constantine You never heard about how Basil II had 10000 Bulgarian prisoners blinded, leaving one out of every hundred with one eye, then sent this procession back to their Tsar and when he saw all of them he had a heart attack and died and all of Bulgaria was conquered??
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Feb 16, 2019 23:07
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That's pretty loving wild
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Feb 16, 2019 23:10
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You never heard about how Basil II had 10000 Bulgarian prisoners blinded, leaving one out of every hundred with one eye, then sent this procession back to their Tsar and when he saw all of them he had a heart attack and died and all of Bulgaria was conquered?? 
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Feb 16, 2019 23:10
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:You never heard about how Basil II had 10000 Bulgarian prisoners blinded, leaving one out of every hundred with one eye, then sent this procession back to their Tsar and when he saw all of them he had a heart attack and died and all of Bulgaria was conquered?? in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Or Basil II I guess?
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Feb 16, 2019 23:26
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Empress Irene Sarantapechaina Reign 19 April 797 – 31 October 802 This fine lady was the mother of a future Byzantine emperor. when her husband died and her son was too young to rule she exersized power in his name. once her son was old enough to start ruling he organized a revolt to try and get power back from his mom. He failed and his mom Irene Sarantapechaina gouged out his eyes so that he died of blood loss a few days later! she went on to have herself proclaimed Augustus and stoped pretending to rule in her son's name. she later tried to get in touch with Charlemagne (who had been proclaimed emperor of the West in 800ad by the pope) to propose marriage. this would have reunited the Roman Empire, but unfortunately Empress Irene Sarantapechaina was murdered by a court intrigue in 802.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:44
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But really, which is the legitimate successor of Rome (Byzantium)? -Russia -Turkey -Serbia ? The west lost its claim by dissolving the HRE and replacing it with national empires, so Austria and France are not in the running (but prior to that Charles V of the Habsburgs was arguably the greatest Roman Emperor)
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Feb 16, 2019 23:45
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steinrokkan posted:But really, which is the legitimate successor of Rome (Byzantium)? It's france Napolean declared himself Augustus when he conquered Europe.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:50
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Rutibex posted:It's france Napolean declared himself Augustus when he conquered Europe. How can the Emperor of the French be the Emperor of the Romans? 
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Feb 16, 2019 23:55
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steinrokkan posted:But really, which is the legitimate successor of Rome (Byzantium)? The pope. Ruler of the Vatican state, an independent state of which he is head of government, in Italy, retains the official title of Pontifex Maximus, a title stretching back unbroken into the hundreds B.C. and made an official Imperial Government position by Augustus himself after it was passed onto him when he took control after wresting control of the state after Caesar's death. That's 2500+ years of unbroken Roman heritage still being passed down to sovereign rulers.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:55
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steinrokkan posted:But really, which is the legitimate successor of Rome (Byzantium)? The eternal empires of Finland and Korea
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Feb 16, 2019 23:56
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The Fourth Crusade is one of the most incredible and bizarre events in all of history for me, literally nobody comes out of it looking good. It kind of says something about how disordered the empire had gotten by that point that this fractious and broke band of chucklefuck crusaders who started off undersized and had been hemorrhaging men for months managed to attack and conquer one of the most impregnable cities in history. If Alexios III had just grown a pair and fought properly instead of absconding with the imperial treasury at the first hint of trouble things might have been totally different. The lead up was pretty nutty as well, in the last few decades the empire had gone into decline with the death Manuel I Komnenos who in his last years started getting his poo poo kicked in by Turks. Komnenos is probably the last 'Great' Roman emperor in history, and he was soon followed up by the last 'Great' insane tyrant in the vein of Caligula and Caracalla, Andronicus, who overthrew and murdered Manuel's young son Alexios II and his mother, Empress Maria, helped in large part by the fact that Maria was a westerner which made her unpopular in the Eastern Empire. He also directed Constantinople's Greek population to massacre tens of thousands of Latins, mostly Italians who were economically very powerful in the city, which created permanent bad blood that came back around 20 years later. Andronicus also killed his allies who invited him to the city in the first place, Marie Komnene and her husband Renier of Montferrat, this is important because Boniface of Montferrat was the brother of Renier and played a key role in the Fourth Crusade and subsequent chopping up of the empire. Not done yet, Andronicus (probably in his 60s by now) married Alexios's 12 year old widow, Agnes of France, and initiated a reign of terror against the Aristocracy that was bloody and horrifying even by Roman standards, he seems to have resolved to wipe out the entire aristocracy, unfortunately a Norman invasion in the Balkans complicated things and (obviously) people were starting to get a wee bit less keen on him that they might have previously. When Isaac Angelos managed to escape assassination the city rose up around him, Andronicus was deposed and, fittingly for Rome, was tortured to death slowly and horribly by the mob in a way that almost makes me feel bad for him. Isaac Angelos then became emperor, the father, by the way, of Alexios IV who managed to convince the crusaders to go to Constantinople in 1203, his rule was beset by Norman wars and, worse, a gigantic insurrection in the Balkans that eventually led to the Second Bulgarian Empire being proclaimed. Isaac was overthrown and blinded (not killed, though such a maiming meant he was technically ineligible to rule as Emperor which was the source of consternation when he was returned to the throne with his son by the Crusaders since this was clear example of foreigners breaking Byzantine customs to hoist upon them their own candidates for office) by Alexios III, his own brother! As you might imagine with a man who runs off from the Greatest city in Europe with everyone else's money, even leaving his own family behind to angry invaders, he wasn't a very good emperor who let the defenses of the empire rot (especially the navy, which obviously had massive repercussions in the fourth crusade) and hopelessly squandered money on himself and his favorites to maintain power, even though the empire was getting pressed from every angle by Turks, Bulgarians, Hungarians and various local uprisings. The worst part was when the Holy Roman emperor Henry VI basically just shook him down for a ton of money to not invade, which Alexios gladly provided by taxing the hell out of the people and ransacking priceless artifacts to melt down and sell. In the end, it all feels so fittingly Roman in a weird kind of way that had gotten really outmoded in Europe around then, with total insanity and incompetence you could only really get when your succession process sucks and you're beholden to the mob on the street of your capital who'll gladly torture you to death personally if you gently caress things up, but the Emperor was still powerful enough that they could attempt to wipe out their entire aristocracy and come surprisingly close, one of the reasons Byzantium truly was the Roman Empire. steinrokkan posted:But really, which is the legitimate successor of Rome (Byzantium)? America 
khwarezm fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 00:25
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Rutibex posted:in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Or Basil II I guess? I forgot to say he's known as Basil the Bulgar-Slayer. BASIL BULGAROKTONOS which is fun to say. Also longest reigning Roman Emperor in its whole history.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:33
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khwarezm posted:The Fourth Crusade is one of the most incredible and bizarre events in all of history for me, literally nobody comes out of it looking good. holy poo poo post more
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Feb 17, 2019 00:38
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Basil II was the descendant of Basil I, an illiterate farmer boy who came to the capital and hosed/hustled his way up the ladder till he was best friends with the Emperor, then co-Emperor, then he murdered the Emperor and married his wife and founded a dynasty that ruled for 2 centuries and presided over the heights of medieval Roman power.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:38
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Nckdictator posted:Caligula gets points for killing the perverts. FizFashizzle posted:claudius was seriously on the spectrum. when he was giving official speeches, there were all these rules of position and cantor you had to follow (it's how you helped carry your message in huge groups of people) and he was fine when he was doing. lmao drain the swamp
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Feb 17, 2019 00:52
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Rutibex posted:in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Or Basil II I guess? Unfortunately it's one of those great stories that almost certainly never happened. Or I guess fortunately since blinding thousands of people is horrible even if it was a thousand years ago.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:25
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Basil II was the descendant of Basil I, an illiterate farmer boy who came to the capital and hosed/hustled his way up the ladder till he was best friends with the Emperor, then co-Emperor, then he murdered the Emperor and married his wife and founded a dynasty that ruled for 2 centuries and presided over the heights of medieval Roman power. You have it a bit wrong, Basil I murdered Emperor Michael (The Drunkard), but before he killed him he was friends with the Emperor and had married his current/former mistress who was the daughter of a Varangian (Viking). Its unclear on if the first couple kids with her were actually his because he seemed suspicious of their parentage and groomed his son from his first wife as Co-Emperor until that son died. He planned to pass over all his kids who were born while Michael was still alive/recently dead, including his son Leo the Wise who he imprisoned, but ultimately ended up succeeded him. Basil then died in a mysterious "Hunting Accident", and Leo became Emperor (On his deathbed he seemed to think Leo was behind it). Leo then reburied, the remains of Michael III in the Imperial Mausoleum so he seemed to think he was actually dead drunk Emperors son instead of Basil's.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:30
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Grand Fromage posted:Unfortunately it's one of those great stories that almost certainly never happened. Or I guess fortunately since blinding thousands of people is horrible even if it was a thousand years ago. *hides blinding stick behind back embarrassedly*
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Feb 17, 2019 01:30
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Also the really stupid thing about the 4th Crusade is it shouldn't have captured Constantinople. The Varangians demanded a raise, then when they didn't get it the Crusaders were able to capture part of the city because a big chunk of the defenders just went to their barracks and stopped fighting. Then Emperor Busybrows tried to run off with the treasury and his mistresses.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:34
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The Varangians are really interesting to me since they are like the perfect opposite to the Praetorians and actually protected the Emperor like they were hired to do rather than killing the emperor and literally auctioning off the job to the highest bidder (look up Pertinax for more on this). They were even used in battle as elite crack troops and performed exceptionally, the Praetorians on the other hand mostly lolled around Rome bossing around the locals and trying to make their already ridiculously oversized paychecks bigger, its such a night and day difference, every other imperial guard force in history seems to pale against these guys in terms of loyalty and competence. Does anyone know more about how they came into being?
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Feb 17, 2019 01:37
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khwarezm posted:The Varangians are really interesting to me since they are like the perfect opposite to the Praetorians and actually protected the Emperor like they were hired to do rather than killing the emperor and literally auctioning off the job to the highest bidder (look up Pertinax for more on this). They were even used in battle as elite crack troops and performed exceptionally, the Praetorians on the other hand mostly lolled around Rome bossing around the locals and trying to make their already ridiculously oversized paychecks bigger, its such a night and day difference, every other imperial guard force in history seems to pale against these guys in terms of loyalty and competence. Vikings were sailing up rivers and all over the place, they found constantinople and tried to sack it, and failed, but the emperor was pretty amused and impressed with their fighting spirit and hired them since, being from so far away, they had very little incentive to play byzantine politics. That's a turbo paraphrase of videos i watched on the subject and it's probably at least partly wrong but yeah that's what i remember
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Feb 17, 2019 01:40
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khwarezm posted:The Varangians are really interesting to me since they are like the perfect opposite to the Praetorians and actually protected the Emperor like they were hired to do rather than killing the emperor and literally auctioning off the job to the highest bidder (look up Pertinax for more on this). They were even used in battle as elite crack troops and performed exceptionally, the Praetorians on the other hand mostly lolled around Rome bossing around the locals and trying to make their already ridiculously oversized paychecks bigger, its such a night and day difference, every other imperial guard force in history seems to pale against these guys in terms of loyalty and competence. almost like immigrants get the job done
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Feb 17, 2019 01:41
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khwarezm posted:The lead up was pretty nutty as well, in the last few decades the empire had gone into decline with the death Manuel I Komnenos who in his last years started getting his poo poo kicked in by Turks. Komnenos is probably the last 'Great' Roman emperor in history, and he was soon followed up by the last 'Great' insane tyrant in the vein of Caligula and Caracalla, Andronicus, who overthrew and murdered Manuel's young son Alexios II and his mother, Empress Maria, helped in large part by the fact that Maria was a westerner which made her unpopular in the Eastern Empire. He also directed Constantinople's Greek population to massacre tens of thousands of Latins, mostly Italians who were economically very powerful in the city, which created permanent bad blood that came back around 20 years later. Andronicus also killed his allies who invited him to the city in the first place, Marie Komnene and her husband Renier of Montferrat, this is important because Boniface of Montferrat was the brother of Renier and played a key role in the Fourth Crusade and subsequent chopping up of the empire. Not done yet, Andronicus (probably in his 60s by now) married Alexios's 12 year old widow, Agnes of France, and initiated a reign of terror against the Aristocracy that was bloody and horrifying even by Roman standards, he seems to have resolved to wipe out the entire aristocracy, unfortunately a Norman invasion in the Balkans complicated things and (obviously) people were starting to get a wee bit less keen on him that they might have previously. When Isaac Angelos managed to escape assassination the city rose up around him, Andronicus was deposed and, fittingly for Rome, was tortured to death slowly and horribly by the mob in a way that almost makes me feel bad for him. my limited understanding of the massacre of the latins is that, even by the standards of the time, it was deeply gruesome with babies smashed against rocks and hospital patients murdered in their beds. the papal legate was tortured and decapitated before having his severed head tied to a dog a chased through the streets. the few survivors were sold into slavery. andronikos's fate for orchestrating the episode probably deserves quoting in full: quote:Andronicus was at that moment away from Constantinople [when he was overthrown]. He hastened back, but when he arrived it was too late for him to attempt to regain control. Realising that all was lost, he slipped off his imperial robes and attempted to flee, accompanied by his child-bride Agnes-Anna and, practical to the last, his favourite concubine Maraptiké. Embarking on a smallship he sailed out of the Golden Horn towards the Bosporus, hoping to reach safety on the northern shores of the Black Sea, but he was soon captured and brought back to Constantinople and delivered to the mercies of Isaac Angelus. Nicetas tells us what happened to him then.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:42
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 Oh godThat's what gets me, could you imagine something like that happening to any other crowned head of Europe at the time? At least with somebody like Edward II of England they tried to make his murder not so obvious. The Eastern Empire tended to consider themselves above the barbarians from the west, and they were in some ways, but I would imagine a king from France or Germany would have been as shocked as a modern reader looking at that.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:53
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Lol rich dude got owned, feels good man
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Feb 17, 2019 01:59
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khwarezm posted:Does anyone know more about how they came into being? After seeing his protectors Nikephoros and Ioannes and their assortment of assassinations, Basil II decided he needed a bodyguard force that would be loyal and it seems (this is a period of Roman history with bad documentation so there's speculation here, Basil may not have been the first one to start the Guard) he started hiring Vikings to form the Varangian Guard. The Varangians were extremely loyal because they were personally bound to the emperor and nothing else. The problem with the Praetorians is they were bound to the concept of the princeps, while the Varangians were bound to the actual specific person on the throne. They were also outside of society and legally prevented from many sorts of interactions like owning property or having Roman titles or whatever. They were also always paid very well no matter what else was going on. So if you're a Varangian, you are getting a shitload of money to protect Emperor Whatshisface. If the emperor dies, you get no more money. You are also legally prevented from ever getting money or position or power or anything else from anyone other than the emperor directly. So, as a Varangian there is literally no motivation to be disloyal. Thus, total loyalty.
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Feb 17, 2019 02:46
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Jack2142 posted:You have it a bit wrong, Basil I murdered Emperor Michael (The Drunkard), but before he killed him he was friends with the Emperor and had married his current/former mistress who was the daughter of a Varangian (Viking). Its unclear on if the first couple kids with her were actually his because he seemed suspicious of their parentage and groomed his son from his first wife as Co-Emperor until that son died. He planned to pass over all his kids who were born while Michael was still alive/recently dead, including his son Leo the Wise who he imprisoned, but ultimately ended up succeeded him. Basil then died in a mysterious "Hunting Accident", and Leo became Emperor (On his deathbed he seemed to think Leo was behind it). Leo then reburied, the remains of Michael III in the Imperial Mausoleum so he seemed to think he was actually dead drunk Emperors son instead of Basil's. I think I was just getting the real story mixed up with a certain novel I'm ashamed to have read.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:00
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khwarezm posted:
It makes perfect sense. European kings in the middle ages were just big shot feudal lords, their base of power was a castle or fortress and some middling village of a capital city. Constantinople on the other hand had a population of 500,000+ people, this is like a modern city. for comparison, Paris had a population around 500,000 during the French revolution. It creates an entirely different dynamic of power when you live in a big city. lots of Byzintine emperor's were killed by conspiracies or driven off by unruly mobs.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:31
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im reading more on andronikos and, lol, he's such a piece of poo poo.quote:Andronikos’ relationship with Manuel was poisoned early on. Andronikos never forgave his cousin for refusing to pay his ransom when he was taken captive by the Turks while hunting game in 1143. In 1155 he was relieved of his command as Duke of Branicevo and Belgrade, accused of conspiring with the Hungarians to depose Manuel I. In the same year, Andronikos’ reckless adulterous behavior further infuriated the emperor. His incestuous relations with the widowed Evdokia scandalized both her brother John and brother-in-law. Setting a trap to catch him in flagrante delicto, they surrounded Evdokia’s pavilion where the lovers’ tryst had been arranged, intent on killing the sinner on the spot, but forewarned by his mistress Evdokia, Andronikos made a spectacular escape by slashing his way out with his sword. imagine being that guard and trying to explain to your boss the bugs bunny-style gambit that your very important prisoner used to escape QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 14:35
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QuoProQuid posted:imagine being that guard and trying to explain to your boss the bugs bunny-style gambit that your very important prisoner used to escape im pretty sure if you gently caress up that bad in the roman empire you just peace out and dont come home.
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Feb 17, 2019 14:43
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QuoProQuid posted:im reading more on andronikos and, lol, he's such a piece of poo poo. Can't stop laughing at the "never one to lose an opportunity" line.
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Feb 17, 2019 22:09
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basic hitler posted:Vikings were sailing up rivers and all over the place, they found constantinople and tried to sack it, and failed, but the emperor was pretty amused and impressed with their fighting spirit and hired them since, being from so far away, they had very little incentive to play byzantine politics. it was the perfect arrangement. You'd pay the guards enough to get filthy rich, and to retire into a life of luxury; but instead of spending their wealth in your capital, entertaining the thought of overthrowing you in exchange for further riches, the discharged guards would just gently caress off half a continent over and never be heard from again.
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Feb 17, 2019 22:28
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Rutibex posted:Empress Irene Sarantapechaina would
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Feb 17, 2019 23:03
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Jose posted:would it's fascinating to look at the evolution of emperor pictures on Roman coins. If you go back and look at an Augustus coin it is very realistic. even going further back, Alexandar the Great and ptolomy coins are fairly realistic. but look at those Byzantine coins. It looks like a cartoon character. i think it had something to do with christianity, made people less interested in realistic depictions of the human form so the skills died off until the renaissance.
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Feb 18, 2019 05:14
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My favorite is the one who got killed by Russell Crowe
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Feb 18, 2019 05:24
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Slutitution posted:My favorite is the one who got killed by Russell Crowe That's commodus. He owns.
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Feb 18, 2019 05:25
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Rutibex posted:it's fascinating to look at the evolution of emperor pictures on Roman coins. If you go back and look at an Augustus coin it is very realistic. even going further back, Alexandar the Great and ptolomy coins are fairly realistic. The adjective is "Roman", not "Byzantine". Also, it was an aesthetic choice, people's art skills didn't get worse. Think about how people are still making pixel art in 2019 even though it's an aesthetic that comes from the limitations of a technology that has improved. Teriyaki Hairpiece fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Feb 18, 2019 |
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Feb 18, 2019 05:53
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The adjective is "Roman", not "Byzantine". 
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Feb 18, 2019 06:13
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