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blackmongoose
Mar 31, 2011

DARK INFERNO ROOK!

Lawman 0 posted:

What's the year or time period you guys believe that western europe pulled decisively ahead of the rest of the world in military technology and tactics?

Sometime between the end of the Great Turkish War and the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_K%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCk_Kaynarca, everyone has their own favorite point at which they feel the Ottomans were officially in decline but most of the choices are in that range.

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FrangibleCover
Jan 23, 2018

Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

Ensign Expendable posted:

What's so hellish about buying up whatever the US or UK write off?
With the notable exception of the CF-18 contract in the early 80s the Canadians have hosed up every single tactical aircraft procurement since the Clunk. All of them. Ask me about one and I'll tell you why it was the wrong choice.

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

FrangibleCover posted:

With the notable exception of the CF-18 contract in the early 80s the Canadians have hosed up every single tactical aircraft procurement since the Clunk. All of them. Ask me about one and I'll tell you why it was the wrong choice.

C-17?

FrangibleCover
Jan 23, 2018

Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.
Not a tactical aircraft, a strategic airlifter, but I'll bite anyway.

The bad decisionmaking there was committing to being an expeditionary peacekeepingy sort of armed forces in the American mould in the 1990s and taking until the mid 00s to think that maybe they should buy some planes that let them do expeditionary peacekeepingy sort of things without having to beg a ride off the Americans. It's a good jet but it'd have been handy to have going into Afghanistan instead of just coming out.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

FrangibleCover posted:

With the notable exception of the CF-18 contract in the early 80s the Canadians have hosed up every single tactical aircraft procurement since the Clunk. All of them. Ask me about one and I'll tell you why it was the wrong choice.

The Clunk?

Polyakov
Mar 22, 2012



This thing

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye


BEFORE the F-18 :smug:

So just outta curiosity, mr. cover, what's your opinion on the NSS?

FrangibleCover
Jan 23, 2018

Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

Nebakenezzer posted:

BEFORE the F-18 :smug:

So just outta curiosity, mr. cover, what's your opinion on the NSS?
The National Shipbuilding Strategy? I'm not particularly familiar with it and the MilHist thread isn't really the place for it but I think the T26 that's probably going to be selected is a good bet.

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018


:tipshat:

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010



Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

blackmongoose posted:

Sometime between the end of the Great Turkish War and the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_K%C3%BC%C3%A7%C3%BCk_Kaynarca, everyone has their own favorite point at which they feel the Ottomans were officially in decline but most of the choices are in that range.

hot take: the ottomans are essentially western europeans

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...
Grimey Drawer

HEY GUNS posted:

yes their military history is 95% pure failure

edit: but they DO own the Meissen Sword

Now I'm curious, is the Meissen Sword made from porcelain?

Beamed
Nov 26, 2010

Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.


Lawman 0 posted:

What's the year or time period you guys believe that western europe pulled decisively ahead of the rest of the world in military technology and tactics?

We've narrowed it down to about 1396 now, thanks for asking :)

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
HMC M37

Queue: GMC M41, Archer, T-29-5, Avenger I, FIAT 3000, FIAT L6-40, [M13/40, M14/41, M15/42], Carro Armato P40 and prospective Italian heavy tanks, Grosstraktor, Panzer IV/70, SU-85, KV-85, Tank sleds, Proposed Soviet heavy tank destroyers, IS-2 mod. 1944, Airborne tanks, Soviet WWII pistol and rifle suppressors, SU-100, DS-39 tank machinegun, Flakpanzers on the PzIV chassis, Sentinel, Comet, Faustpatrone, [Puppchen, Panzerschreck, and other anti-tank rocket launchers], Heavy Tank T32, Heavy Tanks T30 and T34, T-80 (the light tank), MS-1 production, Churchill Mk.VII, Alecto, Assault Tank T14, S-51, SU-76I, T-26 with mine detection equipment, T-34M/T-44 (1941), T-43 (1942), T-43 (1943), Maus development in 1943-44, Trials of the LT vz. 35 in the USSR, Development of Slovakian tank forces 1939-1941, T-46, SU-76M (SU-15M) production, Object 237 (IS-1 prototype), ISU-122, Object 704, Jagdpanzer IV, VK 30.02 DB and other predecessors of the Panther, RSO tank destroyer, Sd.Kfz. 10/4, Czech anti-tank rifles in German service, Hotchkiss H 39/Pz.Kpfw.38H(f) in German service, Flakpanzer 38(t), Grille series, Jagdpanther, Boys and PIAT, Heavy Tank T26E5, History of German diesel engines for tanks, King Tiger trials in the USSR, T-44 prototypes, T-44 prototypes second round, Black Prince, PT-76, M4A3E2 Jumbo Sherman,
M4A2 Sherman in the Red Army

Available for request:

:ussr:
T-54 NEW
T-44 prototypes
T-44 prototypes second round
T-44 production
Soviet HEAT anti-tank grenades
PT-76 modernizations
T-34-85M

:godwin:
German anti-tank rifles
15 cm sFH 13/1 (Sf)
Oerlikon and Solothurn anti-tank rifles
Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.H-J

:finland:
Lahti L-39

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Beamed posted:

We've narrowed it down to about 1396 now, thanks for asking :)

Why so?

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

https://twitter.com/wellerstein/status/1170416239707086849

Bright as 100 suns at almost 10km - what radiance could you actually stand to look at with the naked eye? Also, interesting that the second flash is almost a full second post detonation, I though it was fractionally later and required machine detection or film analysis, if you were far enough away that you weren't blinded or dazzled by the first flash you could discern the difference between the first and second flash.

How does radiance scale with yield

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe

zoux posted:

Bright as 100 suns at almost 10km - what radiance could you actually stand to look at with the naked eye?

An interesting question, and one that I don't have a good answer for beyond "it depends". In particular it depends on wavelength -- humans can "stand" to look at UV and infrared lasers far longer than is actually safe, because they don't trigger a blink reflex. So you end up cooking your cornea without realizing anything's going wrong. Blue light is known to be potentially harmful, but sometimes this is things like "if you stare at this light for 90 minutes you may sustain permanent damage".

If you're specifically talking broad-spectrum photons like the Sun emits, well, we can't stand to look at one sun's worth of flux, so, somewhere less than that. :v:

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

FOPTIMUS PRIME

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

hot take: the ottomans are essentially western europeans
they are central europeans with sun and a beach

Libluini posted:

Now I'm curious, is the Meissen Sword made from porcelain?
i think it's this thing but it doesn't look the same as the one in the Imperial Regalia so it might not be

saxony's top row second from right, each Prince Elector keeps one of the elements of the Regalia and presents it during a coronation

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017

by sebmojo
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3898006&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I don't go to GBS but this goon propaganda thread is a pro-click for anyone who enjoys both milhist and The Something Awful Forms

Vorkosigan
Mar 28, 2012


Alright, Big Headline said y'all might be interested in the, but MAH WAIFE's grandfather was a Pathfinder Navigator (381st Bomb Group, 535th Squadron, Ridgewell and 91st Bomb Group, 324th Squadron PFF, Bassingbourn). He wrote a big ol' history and got a bunch of buddies to contribute, and even made a CD of the memoirs that I've uploaded here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RPw8UCBj1X3qBYbGNShPYHdEn3u3kRd-

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Edgar Allen Ho posted:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3898006&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I don't go to GBS but this goon propaganda thread is a pro-click for anyone who enjoys both milhist and The Something Awful Forms



holy poo poo that thread is amazing

ChubbyChecker
Mar 25, 2018

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

"Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

You missed the third panel where Italy jumps on the truck labeled "Neo-Nazis," just as the truck smacks into a wall.

NFX
Jun 2, 2008

Fun Shoe

zoux posted:

https://twitter.com/wellerstein/status/1170416239707086849

Bright as 100 suns at almost 10km - what radiance could you actually stand to look at with the naked eye? Also, interesting that the second flash is almost a full second post detonation, I though it was fractionally later and required machine detection or film analysis, if you were far enough away that you weren't blinded or dazzled by the first flash you could discern the difference between the first and second flash.

How does radiance scale with yield

I don't know about the other questions, but if you look at the (logarithmic) time scale, you'll see that the dip lasts around 90 ms. Normally this is pretty easy to discern for a human, but I imagine that the first flash will have dazzled you (if not outright blinded) so much that you don't notice it. I think that to the naked eye it will look much like it does on film, except way, way brighter (a big light that slowly fades out).

JcDent
May 13, 2013

Give me a rifle, one round, and point me at Berlin!

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3898006&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I don't go to GBS but this goon propaganda thread is a pro-click for anyone who enjoys both milhist and The Something Awful Forms



A loving :five: thread right there

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Reading Rockets and People, vol 1:

Our narrator is getting an eyeful of mittelwerk at Nordhousen. While the Americans were through in the looting of the place, they only took completed V-2s, leaving parts enough for 60 or so A4s. One thing Chertok notices: while everybody has an eye out for new technology, the Soviets are astonished by something the Western Allies completely ignored: how compared to the Soviets, the Germans had a staggering wealth of machine tools and precision instruments. When Chertok was in Berlin, he was particularly taken with the

quote:

Siemens four-mirror oscillograph. There we found various models: two-, four-, and six-mirror models. Without them, conducting research on rapidly occurring dynamic processes is impossible. This is a new epoch in the technology of measurements and engineering research. In Moscow, at NII-1 we had only one six-mirror oscillograph for the entire institute. And these Germans had so many!

Chertok was also impressed with something the west found rather mundane:

quote:

For us it was a novelty that the company List, which specialized only in the development and mass-production of multi-pin plug connectors, existed and flourished among the Germans. They had produced hundreds of thousands of connectors for German aircraft and rockets. The concept was very simple, but the engineering and production involved were fundamentally new to us.This innovation developed in response to the extreme complexity of the electrical circuits used in flying vehicles. The connectors enhanced rapid assembly and allowed electrical components to be connected and disconnected reliably during the repair and testing of individual compartments.

The very term shteker, or plug connector, made its way into the Russian language from the Germans after the war. Throughout history much has been transferred to the victors from the vanquished. Only after the war did we come to appreciate what a tremendous technical role such a seemingly simple device as the plug and socket connector was destined to play in aircraft and rocket technology! The Germans spent years developing reliable connectors, and introduced into aircraft and rocket technology the standard List shteker, which had from two to thirty pins.We needed three years to reproduce connectors that were as reliable. However, during our first years of mastering rocket technology they gave us a lot of trouble.

Now our industry produces connectors—both tiny and enormous, airtight, onboard and ground-based—to connect and remotely disconnect more than one hundred electric circuits. Despite all of these achievements, the problem of connector technology remains one of the most complex in the entire world.This is why there are booths at every international aerospace exhibition advertising hundreds of modifications of quick and reliable cable connectors. Dozens of powerful companies in many countries produce them by the millions.

At Mittelwerk, the Americans had taken all the specific Rocket test equipment - but had left behind state of the art manufacturing and machine tools. Also, regular executions took place with the interior industrial cranes, with up to 70 people at a time being hung for sabotage. And here's something unbelievable:

quote:

Much later—in early 1946 as I recall—a German artist came from Erfurt to speak to General Gaydukov, chief of the Institute Nordhausen. He brought a large collection of watercolors and pencil drawings depicting subterranean production activity at Mittelwerk. According to the artist, any photography or filming of the factory and the surrounding areas was forbidden on the threat of death. But the leaders of the A-4 program believed that a creation as great as Mittelwerk should somehow be immortalized.

They had sought out the professional artist and caricaturist, and with the help of the Gestapo, had brought him to the factory to draw the entire primary missile assembly process and do as many sketches as possible in color.
He labored diligently, but at times he got so carried away that drawings appeared of prisoners being beaten, executions, and visits to the factory by high-ranking guests such as Ernst Kaltenbrunner himself. We looked intently at these drawings filled with doomed individuals in striped uniforms, among whom were certainly dozens of heroes whose names humankind will never know.

How did he manage to keep these pictures? “Very simply,” he explained. “A special officer of the Gestapo took some pictures from me. But he wasn’t interested in a lot of them. I was supposed to hand them over to the factory management, but I wasn’t able to—and now I would like to offer them as a gift to the Russian command.” General Gaydukov accepted this unexpected gift with gratitude.

Eventually the album of these pictures was sent to Moscow. But as to its whereabouts now, I do not know. Perhaps it is in some archives and someone willmanage to find them.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006

Yes, I know I'm old, get off my fucking lawn so I can yell at these clouds.

That place is still a head gently caress and a half today. Worth a visit if you’re in the neighborhood.

aphid_licker
Jan 7, 2009


The multipin plug thing is really neat / wacky / interesting

SimonSays
Aug 4, 2006

Simon is the monkey's name

aphid_licker posted:

The multipin plug thing is really neat / wacky / interesting

DIN plugs: the greatest tech of the 20th century?

Nebakenezzer
Sep 13, 2005

The Mote in God's Eye

Cyrano4747 posted:

That place is still a head gently caress and a half today. Worth a visit if you’re in the neighborhood.

Yeah, it's most definitely on my list. Just because I think the thread would like it, here's an adorable passage where Boris, badass rocket and electrical engineer, and his friend, similar, act like giddy children in a good quality hotel:

quote:

After a five-minute drive on a cobblestone road going up a hill, we got out of the car on a small square by the main entrance to a three-story villa. The massive doors—plate glass behind ornamental wrought-iron bars—would not give. The Bürgermeister ran off somewhere and brought back an elderly German woman—Frau Storch. “She was a maid here. She knows everything and is prepared to help you.” Frau Storch had the keys. We entered. But where was the German pilot? Suddenly we were almost run over by a little kid about five years old on a tiny bicycle. He turned out to be the pilot’s son. We learned that the villa had another half with a second entrance. Isayev was outraged that part of the residence was still occupied. Rosenplänter [German rocket engineer deemed too unimportant to be included in Operation Paperclip] rapidly muttered something. I announced that the house suited me and let Alfred unload our meager luggage.

The villa was magnificent. The first floor had a large drawing room. It was a library with bookcases made of dark wood. There were deep armchairs in front of an elaborate fireplace and a separate smoking room with ashtrays of varying sizes. Passing from the drawing room through heavy doors, we entered a fragrant garden. There were magnolias, roses, and a pool with a fountain, which for the time being was not functioning.

“Aleksey,” I said, “the fountain—that’s your bailiwick. Let’s get some rest and then you can fix the jet.” Isayev promised he would.

A marble staircase led from the vestibule to the second floor. Here there were four bedrooms, two bathrooms, and two half-baths equipped with various lavatory sanitary facilities—four toilets in all! The floors were covered with large carpets, and the walls were decorated with ornamental rugs and paintings of local landscapes and scenes of nature. Heavy red velvet curtains hung at the wide windows. We entered the largest bedroom.The bed was mahogany and designed to accommodate, as we determined, four. It had snow-white featherbeds instead of blankets. And the ceiling! The ceiling was a mirror. Lying blissfully in bed you could admire yourself in the mirror. Isayev could not contain himself. He threw back the featherbed and plopped onto the bed, sinking just as he was, in dusty boots and full uniform, into the froth of feathery-white bedding. With a leisurely attitude, he pulled out a soft pack of his favorite Byelomorye cigarettes, which were in short supply here, and lit up.

“You know, Boris, it’s really not all that bad in this ‘fascist beast’s den of iniquity.’”

At that moment, alarmed by our long absence, Rosenplänter appeared, accompanied by Frau Storch and the Bürgermeister. Finding Isayev in the bed, they were completely dismayed. “Is Herr Officer very ill? Should we bring a doctor?” We calmed them down and announced that we would take the villa. We asked only that the other half be made available. “We are going to have a lot of guests!”

“Jawohl!” was the response, to which we had already become accustomed. The third floor turned out to be a mansard; Frau Storch said that sometimes the maid or guests spent the night there.

We asked, “Why isn’t there any hot water?”

“Oh, for that you need to go down into the basement and heat up the boiler.”

Isayev could not restrain himself. “Come on, let’s go light it now.”

In the basement there was a large bunker filled with coal. We heated up the boiler and each of us luxuriated in a separate bathroom. Next,wrapped up in fluffy bathrobes (where did they get this stuff?!), we went down into the library and celebrated our new digs over an improvised lunch.

Nebakenezzer fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Sep 9, 2019

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?
Post the lunch?

Slim Jim Pickens
Jan 16, 2012

Vorkosigan posted:

Alright, Big Headline said y'all might be interested in the, but MAH WAIFE's grandfather was a Pathfinder Navigator (381st Bomb Group, 535th Squadron, Ridgewell and 91st Bomb Group, 324th Squadron PFF, Bassingbourn). He wrote a big ol' history and got a bunch of buddies to contribute, and even made a CD of the memoirs that I've uploaded here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RPw8UCBj1X3qBYbGNShPYHdEn3u3kRd-

Thanks for posting this! This has been a real good read.

I'm really pleased to see how much attention he's given to navigation errors and and the dangers thereof. I doubt we'll see much about operational losses with the HBO show about strategic bombing, but it was definitely a big proportion of casualties.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/09/09/russia-declassifies-wwii-docs-relating-to-soviet-nazi-pact-a67211


quote:

Russia’s Defense Ministry has declassified a trove of documents relating to a Soviet-Nazi nonaggression pact signed 80 years ago which historians say paved the way for the start of World War II.

...

The Defense Ministry said it released the documents “not in chronological order, but in a sequence that will allow viewers to get the most complete picture” of what led to the pact. 

:thunk:

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug
These documents were already declassified, the MoD just periodically uploads small selections for anniversaries of various events.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

https://twitter.com/kayaburgess/status/1171385248464146433

Wikipedia is being DDoSed, can someone tell me about the Amritsar Massacre

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
It essentially was a large gathering and protest in a public park that was peaceful but was brutally and bloodily suppressed due to post mutiny paranoia and fear. The man responsible was protected by those in power for repercussions of the time and the modern British government still refuses to admit both being responsible and trying to paper over the massive gently caress up.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

I don't get why it's so hard for governments to say "yeah when we did the atrocities in the past that was bad" when there are no living perpetrators or survivors. Is there a situation where a country's leadership apologized for some past misdeed and it ended up causing huge problems?

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
I imagine perhaps if lovely populism hadn't reared it's ugly head a proper apology would have occurred but some of the same people trying to force Brexit through no doubt are the scions of the men who tried to keep the British Empire post WW1 from crumbling and toppling over.

Every few years former politicians from the non Tory side of politics go over and try to make amends but it isn't the same.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

I spent four years making
Waves of Steel
Hell yes I'm going to turn my avatar into an ad for it.
Fun Shoe
There's probably a certain amount of "I have decided that I support my nation, therefore my nation cannot ever be in the wrong" thought processes going on too. There's a term for that kind of thing, I just forget what it is right now. But you see the same kind of thing where e.g. some Americans will pretend that slavery or the abuse and genocide of Native Americans was a good thing. It has no possible impact on your life today, but means that you support a country that did bad things in the past, and that might mean contemplating the bad things it's doing right now, and introspection is hard so let's just pretend that there are no problems. Denial is much easier!

zoux
Apr 28, 2006

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

There's probably a certain amount of "I have decided that I support my nation, therefore my nation cannot ever be in the wrong" thought processes going on too. There's a term for that kind of thing, I just forget what it is right now. But you see the same kind of thing where e.g. some Americans will pretend that slavery or the abuse and genocide of Native Americans was a good thing. It has no possible impact on your life today, but means that you support a country that did bad things in the past, and that might mean contemplating the bad things it's doing right now, and introspection is hard so let's just pretend that there are no problems. Denial is much easier!

Sure, I just didn't know if there was any kind of actual legal liability attached to an admission of guilt, since they sure act like there is!

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SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
I strongly suspect it is more of a case of them trying to squirm away from bad PR and paying the survivors descendants/Indian government money.

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