MilHist Thread: Technically the Yamato did help defeat fascism

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > MilHist Thread: Technically the Yamato did help defeat fascism

Decoy Badger: May 16, 2009

When did common soldiers being worthy of capturing/POWs in general become a thing, as opposed to ransoming nobles/killing the commoners? Are the associated forced "all is well, I always loved uncle Minh" messages purely a modern thing as well?

# ? Sep 19, 2019 02:29

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:59

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Pryor on Fire posted:

My understanding of the rifle grenade is that they were not super effective or accurate even at like 100m. Also the recoil is brutal, people would dislocate their shoulders on the reg if they weren't holding it right. Truly the first backblast casualties.

Let me tell you about the Nock gun my friend.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:06

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

I was just about to ask why not a mortar. I imagine they're potentially cheaper to outfit every rifleman with the ability to throw bombs downrange. If a dozen guys dropped grenades on a trench in a salvo it'd probably be a decent way to start an attack or sometjomg

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:12

Chamale: Jul 11, 2010; I'm helping!

zoux posted:

Is the "this guy saved the whole world" stuff you see stories about him oversold

He really did save the world. In the sense that he was one person in a chain of decision-making that could have led to nuclear armageddon, and he was the man who stopped that chain. Vasily Arkhipov and Zbigniew Brzezinski are also examples of the one who prevents escalation during a nuclear false alarm. We can't say what would have happened if not for these people stopping that series of decisions, because as Hey Guns recently posted, every disaster requires a chain of gently caress-ups to happen. All we know is that it's good that every near-nuclear "retaliation" has had someone present who said "Let's not launch the nukes until we're certain this isn't a false alarm".

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:19

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

Decoy Badger posted:

When did common soldiers being worthy of capturing/POWs in general become a thing, as opposed to ransoming nobles/killing the commoners? Are the associated forced "all is well, I always loved uncle Minh" messages purely a modern thing as well?

Killing the commoners postdates general capture, and that in turn postdates killing everyone, at least in an English context. It goes, in broad strokes: Kill everyone (6th-11th century), kill and/or maim people if you feel especially threatened or annoyed but otherwise ransom them (11th-14th centuries), kill the commoners maybe (12th-16th centuries), kill the nobles (14th-15th centuries), kill the rebels and your religious enemies, but wait I repeat myself (12th-16th century), prisoner exchanges, parole etc (11th-20th centuries), kill everyone again (17th-20th century), imprison some people with the aim of killing them through deprivation sometimes, also assassination of top figures (19th-21st century). It's impossible to speak about these things globally since they're really dependent on culture and context. You'll note a lot of overlap, for example. That's because the development of racism in the late medieval to early modern periods changed who was thought of as fully human! Also a large part of it was related to material conditions. The period of killing nobles especially is related to the fact that basically all of England's wars in those centuries were wars related to succession, where the other side was completely illegitimate, and customary execution of rebels was firmly entrenched by the 14th century in large part because the stakes had gotten so much higher than they had been in e.g. the 12th century. Taking a different tack, though, the Saxons, Mercians, and Vikings were remarkably straightforward in their uniform slaughter of captured enemies.

As for your second question, I don't think much of those *particular* messages can predate instantaneous media like radio and television. They also require consent of the governed as a central rationale for war. You do see that from time to time in medieval warfare (the Scottish Wars of Independence being a plausible example) but not commonly. Instead you see wars where the casus belli has a legalistic justification (the Norman Conquest, Scottish Wars again, Investiture Controversy, HYW) or just a naked power grab (the Burgundian Wars).

I'm drunk so if anyone wants to correct me on something I may or may not fight you.
Thanks,

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:31

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

Milo and POTUS posted:

I was just about to ask why not a mortar. I imagine they're potentially cheaper to outfit every rifleman with the ability to throw bombs downrange. If a dozen guys dropped grenades on a trench in a salvo it'd probably be a decent way to start an attack or sometjomg

Even the lightest of mortars are still crew weaponry and you got to have at least another guy to carry ammunition and help with the loading now, plus I imagine the soldiers operating would need some training. With rifle grenades I expect in theory they just need to get a volley of quick explosives out in a hurry on the fly.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:37

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

zoux posted:

https://twitter.com/sovietvisuals/status/1174472916999770113

Is the "this guy saved the whole world" stuff you see stories about him oversold

Maybe? It's one of those counterfactuals that's impossible to know. There were some strong signs that the radar he was watching was acting up, so if Petrov had passed it up the chain, then maybe somebody higher in the command might have made the same call. Either way his superiors apparently thought he made the right call (then dinged him for not filling out the paperwork correctly, because bureaucracy never changes either I guess).

# ? Sep 19, 2019 03:44

ponzicar: Mar 17, 2008

Even if there's no way to know for sure whether he actually saved the world, I'd like to think that commending him helps create an environment where people faced with a similar situation would feel comfortable being just as cautious as he was.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:01

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

zoux posted:

https://twitter.com/alexdrace/status/1174239857012592640?s=21

So much for the Auld Alliance

I love how carefully the line between II and III gradients skirts around south eastern Finland.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:08

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Stanislav Petrov saved the world because he took the action that prevented it from ending.

If he had passed the alert up the chain as he was supposed to, would someone else have stopped it? Maybe, but so what?

Other people could have slain the minotaur, but they didn�t, and Theseus did.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:12

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:13

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Platystemon posted:

Stanislav Petrov saved the world because he took the action that prevented it from ending.

If he had passed the alert up the chain as he was supposed to, would someone else have stopped it? Maybe, but so what?

Other people could have slain the minotaur, but they didn�t, and Theseus did.

There is still no guarantee that some day we won't nuke ourselves, ergo, he didn't save the world, he just delayed our demise.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:17

tracecomplete: Feb 26, 2017

Platystemon posted:

Other people could have slain the minotaur, but they didn�t, and Theseus did.

This is true, but I have some questions about his ship.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 04:56

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

Trin Tragula posted:

Soldiers, obviously

# ? Sep 19, 2019 05:51

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

HEY GUNS posted:

No idea. If I had to guess i'd say it's because a batallion isn't a standard size nor a standard number of companies. Also regiments don't travel all together, they split up at least by company and probably even smaller.

Wasn't battalion in those days any unit that marched clumped together on the battlefield?

# ? Sep 19, 2019 05:52

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ChubbyChecker posted:

Wasn't battalion in those days any unit that marched clumped together on the battlefield?

yes. batallion on the field roughly corresponds to regiment on paper but doesn't have to.

unless you're swedish, then regiments are brigades.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 05:56

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Killing the commoners postdates general capture, and that in turn postdates killing everyone, at least in an English context. It goes, in broad strokes: Kill everyone (6th-11th century), kill and/or maim people if you feel especially threatened or annoyed but otherwise ransom them (11th-14th centuries), kill the commoners maybe (12th-16th centuries), kill the nobles (14th-15th centuries), kill the rebels and your religious enemies, but wait I repeat myself (12th-16th century), prisoner exchanges, parole etc (11th-20th centuries), kill everyone again (17th-20th century), imprison some people with the aim of killing them through deprivation sometimes, also assassination of top figures (19th-21st century). It's impossible to speak about these things globally since they're really dependent on culture and context. You'll note a lot of overlap, for example. That's because the development of racism in the late medieval to early modern periods changed who was thought of as fully human! Also a large part of it was related to material conditions. The period of killing nobles especially is related to the fact that basically all of England's wars in those centuries were wars related to succession, where the other side was completely illegitimate, and customary execution of rebels was firmly entrenched by the 14th century in large part because the stakes had gotten so much higher than they had been in e.g. the 12th century. Taking a different tack, though, the Saxons, Mercians, and Vikings were remarkably straightforward in their uniform slaughter of captured enemies.

As for your second question, I don't think much of those *particular* messages can predate instantaneous media like radio and television. They also require consent of the governed as a central rationale for war. You do see that from time to time in medieval warfare (the Scottish Wars of Independence being a plausible example) but not commonly. Instead you see wars where the casus belli has a legalistic justification (the Norman Conquest, Scottish Wars again, Investiture Controversy, HYW) or just a naked power grab (the Burgundian Wars).

I'm drunk so if anyone wants to correct me on something I may or may not fight you.
Thanks,

Wouldn't the Vikings and some other people also have sold prisoners as slaves?

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:04

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

SeanBeansShako posted:

Let me tell you about the Nock gun my friend.

Please do.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:05

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

SeanBeansShako posted:

Even the lightest of mortars are still crew weaponry and you got to have at least another guy to carry ammunition and help with the loading now, plus I imagine the soldiers operating would need some training. With rifle grenades I expect in theory they just need to get a volley of quick explosives out in a hurry on the fly.

I wonder how the platoon's light mortars would have compared to rifle grenades? I've understood that Germans stopped using light mortars after Barbarossa.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

...prisoner exchanges, parole etc (11th-20th centuries), kill everyone again (17th-20th century)...related to material conditions.

this is also why a victorious 17th century army sometimes drafts the prisoners into their own army--soldiers are rare and valuable, it's difficult to keep them around, and if two or more armies have been hanging around in the same region for a long time they probably recruit from the same pool of willing potential soldiers anyway. i have read a letter where a woman mentions a relative of theirs in an enemy army to her husband; "if he falls into your hands give him quarter"

also you know they've got experience :v:

edit: they also ransom common soldiers in the 17th century, there is an entire set table of ransoms from common musketeer to general

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:27

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

Nenonen posted:

I love how carefully the line between II and III gradients skirts around south eastern Finland.

I love how a 2000s french publisher is producing a map of the 90s in 1977.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:29

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

HEY GUNS posted:

Both. It's a letters from a general to his recalcitrant colonels kinda word.

One thing though--military sources would not say "the people" for civilians. Never ever. It would be "the townspeople," "the peasants," "the citizens," etc. "The people"--Volkh, Leute, Leutr--means "soldiers." It's members of the military subculture's word for themselves.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Sep 19, 2019

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:33

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

HEY GUNS posted:

yes. batallion on the field roughly corresponds to regiment on paper but doesn't have to.

unless you're swedish, then regiments are brigades.

I thought tercios were escuadrons

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:36

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Milo and POTUS posted:

I thought tercios were escuadrons

but not if you're swedish :thunk:

# ? Sep 19, 2019 06:37

Dance Officer: May 4, 2017; It would be awesome if we could dance!

SeanBeansShako posted:

For the British Army they used the Hales rifle grenade system.

No, I meant for rifle grenades used by the Germans. I thought that was what your post said, that they used them.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 08:07

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I love how a 2000s french publisher is producing a map of the 90s in 1977.

A 90s map with a divided Germany.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 09:11

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

Milo and POTUS posted:

I was just about to ask why not a mortar. I imagine they're potentially cheaper to outfit every rifleman with the ability to throw bombs downrange. If a dozen guys dropped grenades on a trench in a salvo it'd probably be a decent way to start an attack or sometjomg

Even the modern light M224 mortar the US Army uses today still weighs almost 20 pounds in handheld firing configuration. Once you figure each round adds almost 4 pounds, you quickly get very heavy.

e: You can see how minimalist that is, so older designs would have been even much heavier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfkOeHQXAaM

# ? Sep 19, 2019 12:12

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

The Japanese Type 89 (�Knee�) mortar was five kilograms with rounds of one kilogram apiece.

That�s a one‐soldier weapon, no?

There�s still a difference between it and rifle grenades in that everyone can�t carry a T89, but at least it doesn�t take a crew.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 12:19

glynnenstein: Feb 18, 2014

Platystemon posted:

The Japanese Type 89 (�Knee�) mortar was five kilograms with rounds of one kilogram apiece.

That�s a one‐soldier weapon, no?

There�s still a difference between it and rifle grenades in that everyone can�t carry a T89, but at least it doesn�t take a crew.

This is a good point.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 12:32

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

The French were trying to replace their rifle grenades with ultra light 50mm mortars (the model 37), but they couldn't get enough of them built in time for WWII.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 12:40

Rodrigo Diaz: Apr 16, 2007; Knights who are at the wars eat their bread in sorrow;
their ease is weariness and sweat;
they have one good day after many bad

ChubbyChecker posted:

Wouldn't the Vikings and some other people also have sold prisoners as slaves?

Yes, but to the best of my knowledge enslavement was for noncombatants. Crusade warfare also had an element of enslavement, which I should have mentioned, especially because it sowed the seed for the systems of the 16th - 19th centuries which we know and love.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 13:09

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

ChubbyChecker posted:

I wonder how the platoon's light mortars would have compared to rifle grenades? I've understood that Germans stopped using light mortars after Barbarossa.

their own light mortar was an overcomplicated piece of teutonic nonsense (telescopic sight, etc) but they used a bunch of captured soviet and french 50mms

those 50mms are more along the lines of a grenade discharger than an actual mortar. basically a better way of delivering rifle grenades. everyone loved these things in the interwar years, the poles also had one and the Japanese "knee mortar" is probably the most famous. the launchers were man-portable at about 10-15 lbs. they usually had fixed angles for launch and used a kind of dial-the-range system on the shell itself. the Japanese system was pretty clever in that you just screwed a charge in to the base of a frag grenade, so you didn't need to carry totally separate shells - just the bases.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 13:15

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

ChubbyChecker posted:

Please do.

Mandatory Gun Jesus post.

I love repeater/volley flintlocks.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 13:46

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

I love how a 2000s french publisher is producing a map of the 90s in 1977.

Hachette were founded in 1826, although didn't start using that name until later.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 14:13

FrangibleCover: Jan 23, 2018; Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

HEY GUNS posted:

unless you're swedish, then regiments are brigades.

We still have this. LatwPIAT and I know a Russian guy who we talk about Cold War stuff with and a constant bone of contention between us is whether or not a Brigade is real and whether a Regiment is an important operational building block of an army or a collection of stupid toasts with a goat attached.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

those 50mms are more along the lines of a grenade discharger than an actual mortar. basically a better way of delivering rifle grenades. everyone loved these things in the interwar years, the poles also had one and the Japanese "knee mortar" is probably the most famous. the launchers were man-portable at about 10-15 lbs. they usually had fixed angles for launch and used a kind of dial-the-range system on the shell itself. the Japanese system was pretty clever in that you just screwed a charge in to the base of a frag grenade, so you didn't need to carry totally separate shells - just the bases.

Shoutout to the British 2" mortar! Hugely simple, fixed charge/variable angle system where you just kinda point the tube at the bad guys and guess an angle, then adjust. One per platoon and apparently they saw more use for smoke delivery than they did for HE. Battlefield obscurants aren't as sexy as explosions though, so we don't talk about them.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 14:37

Arquinsiel: Jun 1, 2006; "There is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first."

God Bless Margaret Thatcher
God Bless England
RIP My Iron Lady

FrangibleCover posted:

We still have this. LatwPIAT and I know a Russian guy who we talk about Cold War stuff with and a constant bone of contention between us is whether or not a Brigade is real and whether a Regiment is an important operational building block of an army or a collection of stupid toasts with a goat attached.

Why did you put the same thing in twice at the end there?

# ? Sep 19, 2019 14:51

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

their own light mortar was an overcomplicated piece of teutonic nonsense (telescopic sight, etc) but they used a bunch of captured soviet and french 50mms

those 50mms are more along the lines of a grenade discharger than an actual mortar. basically a better way of delivering rifle grenades. everyone loved these things in the interwar years, the poles also had one and the Japanese "knee mortar" is probably the most famous. the launchers were man-portable at about 10-15 lbs. they usually had fixed angles for launch and used a kind of dial-the-range system on the shell itself. the Japanese system was pretty clever in that you just screwed a charge in to the base of a frag grenade, so you didn't need to carry totally separate shells - just the bases.

They copied/captured the french 50mm, but they copied/captured the russian 80mm

# ? Sep 19, 2019 14:52

ChubbyChecker: Mar 25, 2018

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Yes, but to the best of my knowledge enslavement was for noncombatants. Crusade warfare also had an element of enslavement, which I should have mentioned, especially because it sowed the seed for the systems of the 16th - 19th centuries which we know and love.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

their own light mortar was an overcomplicated piece of teutonic nonsense (telescopic sight, etc) but they used a bunch of captured soviet and french 50mms

those 50mms are more along the lines of a grenade discharger than an actual mortar. basically a better way of delivering rifle grenades. everyone loved these things in the interwar years, the poles also had one and the Japanese "knee mortar" is probably the most famous. the launchers were man-portable at about 10-15 lbs. they usually had fixed angles for launch and used a kind of dial-the-range system on the shell itself. the Japanese system was pretty clever in that you just screwed a charge in to the base of a frag grenade, so you didn't need to carry totally separate shells - just the bases.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Mandatory Gun Jesus post.

I love repeater/volley flintlocks.

Ah yes, it's that thing from the Sharpe books.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 15:28

Fangz: Jul 5, 2007; Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

their own light mortar was an overcomplicated piece of teutonic nonsense (telescopic sight, etc) but they used a bunch of captured soviet and french 50mms

those 50mms are more along the lines of a grenade discharger than an actual mortar. basically a better way of delivering rifle grenades. everyone loved these things in the interwar years, the poles also had one and the Japanese "knee mortar" is probably the most famous. the launchers were man-portable at about 10-15 lbs. they usually had fixed angles for launch and used a kind of dial-the-range system on the shell itself. the Japanese system was pretty clever in that you just screwed a charge in to the base of a frag grenade, so you didn't need to carry totally separate shells - just the bases.

Relevant Gun Jesus videos

French
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxBbH-6_2w
Japanese
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGzVZyMzDPI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anlaOcpi8JA
German:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnQkLt3VJF8

Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Sep 19, 2019

# ? Sep 19, 2019 16:46

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 11:59

Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; College Slice

zoux posted:

https://twitter.com/alexdrace/status/1174239857012592640?s=21

So much for the Auld Alliance

I what. How.

Turkey.

# ? Sep 19, 2019 16:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > MilHist Thread: Technically the Yamato did help defeat fascism

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