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The Bren gun is a solid example actually, given that the usual procedure was for one dude to operate it while one or two others just wore a bandolier with four extra magazines in pouches on it for him. Other than just sticking near him to chuck him a magazine once in a while they were expected to use their rifles while he fired, unless doing some funky long range shite with the distance sights on it.
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Sep 20, 2019 12:43
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Arquinsiel posted:This could be another "knee mortar" thing, where someone doesn't quite understand the logic behind a tool and fucks themselves up with it. This just reminded me of something from the best part of three decades ago. My grandmother's gardener when I was a kid was telling me about his time in the second world war in [pacific] and that his [commanding officer/nco] won a [decoration] for firing a mortar off his foot due to [war story I don't remember]. Is firing a mortar braced against your body something that you could actually do in extremis, or was that a tall tale?
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Sep 20, 2019 13:39
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That sounds like the army was handing out decorations just based on doing the most epic stunts. Drive a tank through a burning barn? Bronze star. Ride on top of the tank as it drives through that barn? Silver star.
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Sep 20, 2019 13:49
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Mr Enderby posted:This just reminded me of something from the best part of three decades ago. My grandmother's gardener when I was a kid was telling me about his time in the second world war in [pacific] and that his [commanding officer/nco] won a [decoration] for firing a mortar off his foot due to [war story I don't remember]. There's no benefit in doing it vs just braced on the ground.
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Sep 20, 2019 13:52
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Somewhere on Tarawa in the mid forties a Japanese counter attack occurs on the edge of a US Marine observation post, bursting out a tent a grizzled barely shaved young officer desperately seizes something from a pile of captured weaponry stacked outside his tent. Staring in wild confusion as the sounds of rifle and machine gun fired interrupted by the odd scream he look around. A pile of luggage trunks. Some overturned empty ammuntion crates. A knee high rock. No. His body will have to do he thinks as he reaches for a shell.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:01
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Mr Enderby posted:Is firing a mortar braced against your body something that you could actually do in extremis, or was that a tall tale? good god no An M224 throws a round that weighs a little less than four pounds a little more than 3 km. I don't have any idea how high they go or what the muzzle velocity is, but that is a lot of kinetic energy. I had to haul an 81mm mortar baseplate a significant distance exactly one (1) time and that is not an experience I ever want to repeat under any circumstance. That said, modern light mortars do have a "handheld mode" but that just means using them without a tripod, you still have a baseplate that goes on the ground.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:08
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SeanBeansShako posted:Somewhere on Tarawa in the mid forties a Japanese counter attack occurs on the edge of a US Marine observation post, bursting out a tent a grizzled barely shaved young officer desperately seizes something from a pile of captured weaponry stacked outside his tent. And how does you assessment of the plausibility shift if I tell you that the gardener, and therefore presumably the nco/officer, was from Glasgow.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:08
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Wounded
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Sep 20, 2019 14:18
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Fangz posted:This is a pedantic as hell argument. No, you mischaracterized my argument. My argument is that light mortars were an awkward compromise- they were bulky as gently caress with their ammo for an indirect fire weapon with bad range and meager firepower. The 2-in mortar had almost no value as an HE weapon, and no value at all as an indirect fire weapon. They were issued as singletons in platoon HQ elements, in the british army. The Germans and Soviets had light mortars at the beginning of the war and largely found them worthless. The role and need was there, but light mortars were a terrible solution for it. The US 60mm mortar was used similarly to 81mm mortars in separate platoons. It was probably the best performer but also the heaviest. The Chinese actually liked using these over open sights, despite their bulk, probably due to a lack of other heavy weapons. Lo and behold, we have far better ways nowadays to chuck grenades about the size of the 2-in mortar shell and you don't have to lug around a mortar for it.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:21
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Mr Enderby posted:And how does you assessment of the plausibility shift if I tell you that the gardener, and therefore presumably the nco/officer, was from Glasgow. This one does keep on turning up though, from the nickname of the Japanese "Knee Mortar" (actually try to fire a Type 89 Grenade Discharger from your knee and go home with your femur in a bag) to a story I once read of a Portuguese soldier in the Ultramar War direct-firing his FBP M/986 from a position braced against his stomach, presumably using his rock-hard abs. I'm starting to believe it's doable in certain circumstances just because if it wasn't, why would people keep claiming it is? Mortar gaslighting. Panzeh posted:No, you mischaracterized my argument. My argument is that light mortars were an awkward compromise- they were bulky as gently caress with their ammo for an indirect fire weapon with bad range and meager firepower. The 2-in mortar had almost no value as an HE weapon, and no value at all as an indirect fire weapon. They were issued as singletons in platoon HQ elements, in the british army. The Germans and Soviets had light mortars at the beginning of the war and largely found them worthless. The role and need was there, but light mortars were a terrible solution for it. FrangibleCover fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 14:27
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SeanBeansShako posted:Somewhere on Tarawa in the mid forties a Japanese counter attack occurs on the edge of a US Marine observation post, bursting out a tent a grizzled barely shaved young officer desperately seizes something from a pile of captured weaponry stacked outside his tent.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:30
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bewbies posted:good god no https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKk8UH-jhrw Now imagine that on your shin.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:48
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Mr Enderby posted:And how does you assessment of the plausibility shift if I tell you that the gardener, and therefore presumably the nco/officer, was from Glasgow.
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Sep 20, 2019 14:55
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Panzeh posted:No, you mischaracterized my argument. My argument is that light mortars were an awkward compromise- they were bulky as gently caress with their ammo for an indirect fire weapon with bad range and meager firepower. The 2-in mortar had almost no value as an HE weapon, and no value at all as an indirect fire weapon. They were issued as singletons in platoon HQ elements, in the british army. The Germans and Soviets had light mortars at the beginning of the war and largely found them worthless. The role and need was there, but light mortars were a terrible solution for it. Well that I'm definitely going to disagree with, both in terms of the long-lasting success of the British 2-in mortar and the fact the commando mortar concept has seen enduring success.
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Sep 20, 2019 15:07
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FrangibleCover posted:In that case it's very plausible up until the story ending "And that's why I won a DSO." rather than "And that's why I walk with a limp." I'm actually vaguely remembering the punchline was something like "broke his foot, missed the enemy, and won a DSO" so probably it was only ever meant as a joke. Turns out half-remembered anecdotes told to you as a small child by garrulous old Scottish men are not always reliably historical sources.
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Sep 20, 2019 15:08
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Mr Enderby posted:And how does you assessment of the plausibility shift if I tell you that the gardener, and therefore presumably the nco/officer, was from Glasgow. I am amazed he didn't just use it like a club.
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Sep 20, 2019 15:27
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Panzeh posted:No, you mischaracterized my argument. My argument is that light mortars were an awkward compromise- they were bulky as gently caress with their ammo for an indirect fire weapon with bad range and meager firepower. The 2-in mortar had almost no value as an HE weapon, and no value at all as an indirect fire weapon. They were issued as singletons in platoon HQ elements, in the british army. The Germans and Soviets had light mortars at the beginning of the war and largely found them worthless. The role and need was there, but light mortars were a terrible solution for it. Go look at the videos I posted earlier in the thread. The effective light mortars were extremely light and portable and easy to use and build. The Japanese had one per squad. The Germans abandoned theirs because their 'light mortars' weighed 3x as much as the knee mortar with the same firepower. Not all light mortars are the same. Trying to extrapolate out from their bad experience would be like saying that machine guns were useless because the Japanese hated their unreliable hopper fed type 96s. Fangz fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 20, 2019 |
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Sep 20, 2019 15:29
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Mr Enderby posted:And how does you assessment of the plausibility shift if I tell you that the gardener, and therefore presumably the nco/officer, was from Glasgow. I will tell you to stop ruining my crazy soldier man fanfiction good sir. If Terminal Lance taught me anything about the US Marine Corp is is thus, he masturbated bored after this in the latrine.
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Sep 20, 2019 15:53
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I think Panzeh is getting confused by abominations like the granatwerfer 36, which was truly stupid: it required a 3 man team to operate and was basically a real mortar, but smaller. We all agree that these were stupid. However, stuff like the Granatnik wz. 36, the 50mm m37 and the Type 89 which had a fixed barrel and used dial-a-range systems through chamber sizing or vent sizing on the round were actually useful, are very light (between 4 and 8 kilos), and do not require a crew to operate. It's more like a gunner/assistant model, where the assistant can provide support to increase the rate of fire but is not required for the operation of the weapon. These effectively give an infantry platoon some indirect fire capabilities at about 100-300 meters without burdening them with too much equipment and without taking away riflemen from the platoon strength. These were generally useful! They didn't really fall too far out of favor, they were just replaced by stuff like the M79 and the M203.
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Sep 20, 2019 16:53
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SeanBeansShako posted:he masturbated bored after this in the latrine. Too soon for a new thread title?
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Sep 20, 2019 17:02
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The Brits put them in bren carriers because squaddies were lazy. In certain circumstances sure you pack animal that poo poo like in the fart east (hey autocorrect, I'm gonna leave that in). If they were that awful why didn't the armed forces drop it in favour of rifle grenades? Simple if you were to laager up you want something to chuck a variety of rounds to suit your needs, you keep forgetting about smoke, illumination rounds and of course he to keep people pinned so you can do fire and manovre a lot more effectively when your pinned down in a French field by an mg42 team.
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Sep 20, 2019 17:34
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I, for one, am shocked that people overlook smoke and illumination rounds after I've posted many dozens of types used throughout world war 2.
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Sep 20, 2019 17:46
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Tiny mortars are horseshit. Don't use them. I don't see a reason to extend on that, but I have time so: 1) They lack punch. If you are firing HE, they don't really do anything. If you are firing smoke, it won't last long. 2) The previous point is made worse by the inaccuracy of the things, especially if there is any sort of wind and turbulence then the high trajectory and light weight of the munition means they will scatter all around so even if you had all your measurements correct (which you never have) you will never hit the target. 3) Despite being marketed as 'light', they still weigh enough that a light mortar crew is not going to stay together with riflemen without the dude/duderellas with the mortar and the dude/duderellas with the shells winding down. 4) Because you still want them to have some mobility and you don't want a big crew and you still want them to carry rifles instead of focusing on mortaring all day long, you have to limit the amount of shells they bring to a fight. And because the light mortar lacks punch, this cumulates their suckiness. First couple of shells are wasted in ranging and then a few minutes of heated fire will run you out of ammo. 5) Carrying a bunch of illumination shells with you in the day time brings this number down even further. But if you don't bring those illumination shells with you to combat and are cut out of supply when the night falls, welp. 6) The weight is not a problem if you are mechanized, in which case you should bring along a real mortar. 7) Mountain infantry and other such special forces may benefit from having some sort of light portable indirect support, but they suck in general as a branch of arms. Don't fight in the Alps, just don't.
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Sep 20, 2019 18:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think Panzeh is getting confused by abominations like the granatwerfer 36, which was truly stupid: it required a 3 man team to operate and was basically a real mortar, but smaller. We all agree that these were stupid. This is reasonable.
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Sep 20, 2019 19:13
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The US still has 60mm mortars, they’re a company-level asset
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Sep 20, 2019 19:37
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I don't know if a 60 mm mortar counts as light but those things were absolutely indispensable in Afghanistan.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:01
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It doesn't even have a shovel.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:05
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bewbies posted:I don't know if a 60 mm mortar counts as light but those things were absolutely indispensable in Afghanistan. Nenonen posted:1) They lack punch. If you are firing HE, they don't really do anything. If you are firing smoke, it won't last long. quote:2) The previous point is made worse by the inaccuracy of the things, especially if there is any sort of wind and turbulence then the high trajectory and light weight of the munition means they will scatter all around so even if you had all your measurements correct (which you never have) you will never hit the target. quote:3) Despite being marketed as 'light', they still weigh enough that a light mortar crew is not going to stay together with riflemen without the dude/duderellas with the mortar and the dude/duderellas with the shells winding down. PKM - 7.5kg empty Average patrol mortar - 5kg empty If your mortars can't keep up, neither can your machine guns. quote:4) Because you still want them to have some mobility and you don't want a big crew and you still want them to carry rifles instead of focusing on mortaring all day long, you have to limit the amount of shells they bring to a fight. And because the light mortar lacks punch, this cumulates their suckiness. First couple of shells are wasted in ranging and then a few minutes of heated fire will run you out of ammo. quote:5) Carrying a bunch of illumination shells with you in the day time brings this number down even further. But if you don't bring those illumination shells with you to combat and are cut out of supply when the night falls, welp. quote:6) The weight is not a problem if you are mechanized, in which case you should bring along a real mortar.
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Sep 20, 2019 20:17
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Won't somebody complain about the brixia!?
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Sep 20, 2019 21:16
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spiky butthole posted:The Brits put them in bren carriers because squaddies were lazy. In certain circumstances sure you pack animal that poo poo like in the fart east (hey autocorrect, I'm gonna leave that in). Also, if you're using a bren carrier to lug around plenty of ammunition for the thing you might as well put the mortar in it too.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:25
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Won't somebody complain about the brixia!?
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Sep 20, 2019 21:26
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FrangibleCover posted:Better than grenade launchers. Automatic grenade launchers - like the Mk-19 I mentioned earlier - are great. You can just walk them onto a target, whump, whump, whump, and suppress it into oblivion. Of course, mine was in a turret on an AAV. It must be miserable for the grunts who have to carry them, but that's what you get for going in open contract.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:40
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FrangibleCover posted:I... I kind of like the Brixia. It's trying to be something really interesting and while it's failing quite badly it's heartening to see it try. It's the military equipment equivalent of a terrier with three legs sprinting into a wall. God Bless you
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Sep 20, 2019 21:45
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How about the interwar Italian side-mounted grenade launcher? The big problem is it was connected to the trigger mechanism of the rifle, so you needed to swap the bolt between the rifle and the grenade launcher depending on which you wanted to fire. Still badass as hell.
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Sep 20, 2019 21:48
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Nenonen posted:That sounds like the army was handing out decorations just based on doing the most epic stunts. Drive a tank through a burning barn? Bronze star. Ride on top of the tank as it drives through that barn? Silver star. Drove a burning tank into a train and then the tank exploded and the train exploded? Gold star (posthumously).
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Sep 20, 2019 21:56
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FrangibleCover posted:RK 62 - 3.5kg empty The man carrying the mortar is also carrying a rifle.
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Sep 20, 2019 22:05
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Cessna posted:Automatic grenade launchers - like the Mk-19 I mentioned earlier - are great. You can just walk them onto a target, whump, whump, whump, and suppress it into oblivion. nobody loving humps a mk19. its something they make boots do at soi to make it even more misreable. the weapon system weighs over 100lbs. mk19s and m2s are in weapons co and work with tows/javelins. 240s are in a rifle company.
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Sep 20, 2019 22:45
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Nenonen posted:The man carrying the mortar is also carrying a rifle. Cessna posted:Automatic grenade launchers - like the Mk-19 I mentioned earlier - are great. You can just walk them onto a target, whump, whump, whump, and suppress it into oblivion.
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Sep 20, 2019 23:06
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Were those only given to MPs at some point?
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Sep 20, 2019 23:07
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Schadenboner posted:Were those only given to MPs at some point? They've been pretty standard issue for any unit with trucks (which is a lot of different kinds of units) since forever. Usually two trucks in a platoon had mounts, one would get an M2, one a Mk 19. Also one time some dumbass forgot to put the pin in a Mk 19 and I was riding in the mount in order to look cool as a second lieutenant and the thing fell out when we went over a bump and it pinned my hand down to the mount and there literally wasn't anything I could do about it until we stopped and someone heard me swearing and people came and lifted it up and my hand was broken and I was pissed. This is my "Mk 19 is horribly bulky and heavy" anecdote.
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Sep 20, 2019 23:46
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