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Cyrano4747 posted:Depends a lot on what "SS" uniform means here. If he was walking around in his dress uniform with fancy hat and big 'ol deaths head then, yeah, that's pretty weird. If he was in his field fatigues he probably looked like any other de-mobbed German soldier, of which there were a fuckton wandering around Central Europe for a while after the war. Some Waffen-SS field uniforms had unique camoulflage patterns which distinguished them from Heer troops But then again apparantly a bunch of Heer Panzer crews got shot as POWs because Panzer crew uniforms were really dark which made them look like some other SS uniforms
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Sep 10, 2020 04:55
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:How do you recover dudes off a floating, uncontrollable airship? Have you seen Kiki's Delivery Service?
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Sep 10, 2020 08:30
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This probably explains how Monti got away with it:quote:On May 10, 1945, shortly after Germany surrendered, Monti turned himself in to American forces in Italy, still wearing his SS uniform, which he explained away by saying it had been given to him by partisans who helped him escape. Amazingly, the Army did not realize that Monti had deserted to the enemy. He was charged with being AWOL and misappropriating government property (i.e., the P-38), which he claimed he had flown against the Germans, and to have been shot down! Basically he lied a lot and people believed him somehow Fangz fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Sep 10, 2020 |
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Sep 10, 2020 11:35
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So the Waffen SS managed to set itself up as a parallel army, particularly the later the war got. They managed to siphon a huge number of equipment off the Heer, to the point of receiving priority of new tanks at a time when basically all of the Heer's Panzer Divisions were running on fumes, both literally and figuratively. Did they ever try to set up a Waffen SS airforce? Or did even Hitler realize that giving those bozos planes was just a waste of planes?
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Sep 10, 2020 21:15
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Geisladisk posted:So the Waffen SS managed to set itself up as a parallel army, particularly the later the war got. They managed to siphon a huge number of equipment off the Heer, to the point of receiving priority of new tanks at a time when basically all of the Heer's Panzer Divisions were running on fumes, both literally and figuratively. The Luftwaffe was already pretty ideologically reliable so there probably wasn't the sort of working towards the fuhrer thing driving successively dumber goals that was the case with land forces?
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Sep 10, 2020 21:26
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Goering was too big an ego to let Himmler intrude into his domain, and that branch was so stocked with ardent Nazis that it automatically glorified the party the way the SS did anyway. Also, if you buy the notion that the Waffen-SS was in part a hedge against the Wehrmacht launching a coup or refusing to fight, that's not massively improved by aviation assets.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:26
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The thing you have to remember about all of these little private armies (and the Luftwaffe was essentially one) is that it was about senior nazis carving out their own little fiefdoms, not some kind of actual organizational idea. To give an example, the whole reason why the SS started making rifles in concentration camps is that the Army was pissed about giving them rifles, so they decided to make a parallel industrial base. Did the SS have their own airforce? No. Might they have made that move in another few years if Germany had won the war and we saw a peacetime shakeout? It wouldn't have surprised me. But that would also have been a direct run at Goering's power base, and probably would have resulted in a civil war or at the very least some backroom assassinations.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:33
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Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)?
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Sep 10, 2020 21:37
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The SS had their own antitank rifle produced in occupied Czechia, because that's just the sort of thing they're into. I'm surprised they never tried to leverage Czech design resources under their control to build themselves different tanks.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:38
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Schadenboner posted:Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)? not only that, but a panzer army corps too
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Sep 10, 2020 21:46
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Schadenboner posted:Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)? They had a panzer division for prestige purposes. The infantry were more for “gently caress we need to hold the line” stopgap.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:47
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Schadenboner posted:Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)? They even had a Panzer division whose most notable accomplishment was doing an insane amount of war crimes.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:48
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For what would have happened to post-war Nazi German armed forces there's two plausible options: 1) The USSR Model. Party, Army, and slightly militarised internal security forces in a three way equilibrium. 2) The Iran/Iraq Model. It's just Republican Guards and Special Republican Guards and Special Inner Republican Guards all the way down. I think 2 is far more likely than 1. The leading Nazis all absolutely hated each other and Hitler's preferred method of rule was the exact opposite to creating stable institutional structures.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:56
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Schadenboner posted:Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)? Yes. They had "Field Divisions," which were generally poor. They were initially made to protect airfields and composed of "excess personnel," like mechanics whose planes had been shot down. By the end of the war they had over twenty Field Divisions in four Corps. (They also had paratroopers - Fallschirmjagers - who were quite good. There were seven divisions, plus a few more that were ostensibly paratroopers but never did any paratrooping or training with planes.) For extra lols, they also had a Tank Division, Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1. Hermann Göring (1st Paratroop Panzer Division Hermann Göring). As a minor bit of trivia around the time this unit fought in Sicily they received a shipment of SS smocks and helmet covers:  Troops wearing SS camouflage over blue air force uniforms seems a perfect image of Nazi foolishness. Also, for extra fun, the SS did form two parachute battalions, one of which was a penal battalion. Edit: Beaten to it because I wasted time looking for a pic.
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Sep 10, 2020 21:59
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Cessna posted:Also, for extra fun, the SS did form two parachute battalions, one of which was a penal battalion. "Penal parachute battalion" is some grade-A 40K poo poo.
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Sep 10, 2020 22:02
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Acebuckeye13 posted:"Penal parachute battalion" is some grade-A 40K poo poo. paratroopers sans 'chutes
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Sep 10, 2020 22:08
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Acebuckeye13 posted:"Penal parachute battalion" is some grade-A 40K poo poo. Supposedly the creation of the unit was inspired by the raid that rescued Mussolini. The unit was half volunteers and half "disciplinary unit" troops. Their big mission was a raid to try to kill Tito in his hideout. From Wikipedia: quote:The first wave of paratroopers, following a heavy bombardment by the Luftwaffe, landed in between the area of the cave, (Tito's hideout) and the town of Drvar on open ground and many were gunned down by members of the Tito Escort Battalion, a company numbering fewer than 100 soldiers. The second wave of paratroopers missed their target altogether and landed a few miles outside the town. Tito was long gone when the paratroopers captured the cave. Next to the cave's exit, there was a path leading to a railroad where Tito boarded a train that took him to safety. Tito had been forewarned and evaded capture while the numerically superior Yugoslav Partisans drove off the SS paratroopers. Over 800 of the 1,000 personnel who participated in the operation were killed or wounded.
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Sep 10, 2020 22:13
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That seems like you're just begging them to defect or flee to a neutral country.
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Sep 10, 2020 22:14
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Cessna posted:Supposedly the creation of the unit was inspired by the raid that rescued Mussolini. The unit was half volunteers and half "disciplinary unit" troops. Their big mission was a raid to try to kill Tito in his hideout. From Wikipedia: Which guard codex is this blurb from?
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Sep 10, 2020 22:17
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What were the requirements to become a Nazi tank driver? I vaguely remember a post with some details like "American tankers needed X years of experience with cars, Soviet tankers needed Y years of experience with tractors, Nazi tankers needed Z years of membership in the Nazi party."
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Sep 10, 2020 22:22
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Chamale posted:What were the requirements to become a Nazi tank driver? I vaguely remember a post with some details like "American tankers needed X years of experience with cars, Soviet tankers needed Y years of experience with tractors, Nazi tankers needed Z years of membership in the Nazi party." I seriously doubt that there were any requirements given the situation they were in. I can see giving someone with previous experience with driving preference and sending them to drive tanks instead of putting them in the infantry, but I doubt that they would turn away anyone if they really needed tank crew. For comparison, I didn't have a Driver's License before I joined the USMC and they taught me to drive AFVs. (Also, I've never taken a car driving test in my life. I walked into the DMV to get one; they asked if I had any previously issued licenses. I showed them my tank license, and they said "good enough" and gave me a license to drive cars.)
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Sep 10, 2020 22:33
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Chamale posted:What were the requirements to become a Nazi tank driver? I vaguely remember a post with some details like "American tankers needed X years of experience with cars, Soviet tankers needed Y years of experience with tractors, Nazi tankers needed Z years of membership in the Nazi party." I don't know the specific requirements, but like everything else they degraded as time went on. For instance, one of the SS Panzer Divisions involved in the Battle of the Bulge lost around a third of their tanks to mechanical issues. Part of that was that the Panther's drivetrain was a shitshow, but that was further accentuated by having such a finicky tank being driven in large part by drivers that were fresh recruits who had never driven a Panther in training - Only poo poo like surplus Panzer Is and IIs converted to training tanks, and even then they only drove a couple of dozen kilometers in training due to gasoline shortages. A significant portion of the gunners in that same division had fired a total of 2-4 shots in training, again not on actual Panthers but training vehicles, due to ammo shortages.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:04
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Which guard codex is this blurb from? I was curious myself, it's the 500th SS Parachute Battalion
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Sep 10, 2020 23:05
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Geisladisk posted:I don't know the specific requirements, but like everything else they degraded as time went on. For instance, one of the SS Panzer Divisions involved in the Battle of the Bulge lost around a third of their tanks to mechanical issues. Part of that was that the Panther's drivetrain was a shitshow, but that was further accentuated by having such a finicky tank being driven in large part by drivers that were fresh recruits who had never driven a Panther in training - Only poo poo like surplus Panzer Is and IIs converted to training tanks, and even then they only drove a couple of dozen kilometers in training due to gasoline shortages. It's genuinely incredible how much of axis behavior flows from "oh my God we have no fuel" and other shortages.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:13
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Lawman 0 posted:It's genuinely incredible how much of axis behavior flows from "oh my God we have no fuel" and other shortages. Causes of Axis Failures: 30% shortages 30% "That fat gently caress thinks the Führer loves him? I'll show him who the Führer loves" 30% "These war crimes are vital to the war effort" 10% strategic error
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Sep 10, 2020 23:21
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It's funny how driving used to be considered skilled work for smart dudes only and computer programming used to be considered mundane clerical work for dumb girls only.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:33
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Pryor on Fire posted:It's funny how driving used to be considered skilled work for smart dudes only and computer programming used to be considered mundane clerical work for dumb girls only. Neither of these are really accurate. Driving was never considered "smart dude's" work. It just wasn't a skill you can assume most people have learned the way it is today. Similarly, the "computer programming was for dumb girls" is misleading. Women were extensively used as "human computers" in the early part of the 20th century, churning out tables via repetitive manual calculation. This was portrayed as routine clerical work. When ENIAC was in development, some of these women were employed to program it. They were supposed to just be doing the "mundane clerical work" of punching in programs that mathematicians and theorists (mostly men) had designed, but in practice they not only had to correct program errors but regularly repair the computer and de-bug it (in an era when this involved crawling through the machine and finding out which relays had failed to work properly). So the people who deemed it "women's work" grossly understated what the job entailed, making it far more sexist than the "programming used to be women's work" version often makes it out to be.
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Sep 10, 2020 23:59
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I also feel like that underestates the significant contributions women provided beyond "clerical work" such as Joan Clarke and amusingly I assume unrelated Edith Clarke.
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Sep 11, 2020 00:17
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Schadenboner posted:Didn't the Luftwaffe have their own infantry divisions (not the paratroopers or the AA bois, like actual regular infantry or some poo poo)? Worth noting that this isn't out of the ordinary today - the RAF has the RAF Regiment who have the job if defending airfields (and are treated with about as much respect as Luftwaffe infantry were)
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Sep 11, 2020 00:18
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Gnoman posted:Similarly, the "computer programming was for dumb girls" is misleading. Women were extensively used as "human computers" in the early part of the 20th century, churning out tables via repetitive manual calculation. This was portrayed as routine clerical work. When ENIAC was in development, some of these women were employed to program it. They were supposed to just be doing the "mundane clerical work" of punching in programs that mathematicians and theorists (mostly men) had designed, but in practice they not only had to correct program errors but regularly repair the computer and de-bug it (in an era when this involved crawling through the machine and finding out which relays had failed to work properly). I'm going to chime in for a non mil-hist book recommendation, the Lady Astronaut series by Kowal. The main character is in fact a 'computer' and she plays a key role in the accelerated space program that gets launched when a comet wipes out the Eastern Seaboard in 1952. Good books, deals with a lot of the systemic misogyny and racism, and has a lot of 'early days of space' goodies. The first two books follow the computer, and the third switches POV characters for a really good terrorism thriller set on the moon.
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Sep 11, 2020 00:38
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MikeCrotch posted:Worth noting that this isn't out of the ordinary today - the RAF has the RAF Regiment who have the job if defending airfields (and are treated with about as much respect as Luftwaffe infantry were) A dude I knew signed up to the RAAF when he graduated high school and chose - actually chose - to go to the Airfield Defence Guards. He could have been trained as an airplane mechanic or an electronic warfare specialist on the Orions we had back then, but he chose the least useful, most boring job possible. Airfield defence on the Australian mainland in 1996. He was dishonorably discharged 18 months in for dereliction of duty due to a benzo addiction. They cleaned him up and kicked him out. Maybe if he had more than gently caress all to do he wouldn't have gotten on the pills.
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Sep 11, 2020 00:50
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The nazi internal conflicts are piquing my interest. Any recommended light reading about the divisions between luffwaffe and waffen-ss?
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Sep 11, 2020 02:11
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Geisladisk posted:I don't know the specific requirements, but like everything else they degraded as time went on. For instance, one of the SS Panzer Divisions involved in the Battle of the Bulge lost around a third of their tanks to mechanical issues. Part of that was that the Panther's drivetrain was a shitshow, but that was further accentuated by having such a finicky tank being driven in large part by drivers that were fresh recruits who had never driven a Panther in training - Only poo poo like surplus Panzer Is and IIs converted to training tanks, and even then they only drove a couple of dozen kilometers in training due to gasoline shortages. Pershing crews often only got a handful of shots, if that, since there the Zebra Mission brought little spare ammunition and had no time to train them. Presumably they were trained on some different tank beforehand though.
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Sep 11, 2020 02:44
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In the RAF/UK they had entire teams of women whose job it was to pack parachutes. Their job was so important (understandably) that strict limits were in place with regards to workload in order to avoid stress or overwork, which could cause a decline in one's ability to pack a chite properly.
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Sep 11, 2020 05:30
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Is the factional disfunction in the militaries of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan typical of large militaries in general or mostly those of authoritarian regimes or were they uniquely fractious We talk about how much the German and Japanese militaries were in constant internecine conflict a lot but are there other notable examples from other eras
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Sep 11, 2020 06:41
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The interwar battles between Fleet Air Arm and the RAF over who gets to control carrier aircraft is one, though nothing nearly as bad as Germany or Japan.
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Sep 11, 2020 07:42
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zoux posted:Is the factional disfunction in the militaries of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan typical of large militaries in general or mostly those of authoritarian regimes or were they uniquely fractious There's rivalry between the various parts of the armed forces in every country, but nazi germany and imperial japan were kind of their own thing.
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Sep 11, 2020 08:40
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Cessna posted:
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Sep 11, 2020 09:17
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Is it true the ijn and ija purposefully had opposite-handed screws?
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Sep 11, 2020 09:19
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Just to add to driving skills vs. programming skills chat, wasn't it pretty common for US Army personnel who were in the US Cavalry before and during WWII to be put into tanks when they phased out the use of horses for the Cavalry during the war?
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Sep 11, 2020 13:13
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