|
Zaphod42 posted:The names? Like naming Japan-land "Japan" ? (The Lizardmen aren't called Aztecs) Yes, the name that Japan itself is fine using for fantasy magical mythical Japan is a perfectly fine name to use, and is literally the only thing I actually even remotely care about keeping. Making up an entirely new faction wholecloth is unnecessary because the lovely racist lore is from the 80s but there's nothing actually racist about the names of the nations (the names of the characters are different and I was not arguing for them). They're putting Cathay in game, Cathay was also super racist in the 80s and quietly shuffled under the rug, there is no reason they couldn't do the same things with Nippon and Ind and Araby, so why make up entirely new names instead of using the names and inventing entirely new lore characters and units for them, and thus keeping continuity whilst undoing the bad stuff. Which is literally what they're doing with Cathay already anyway. Cythereal posted:One thing I absolutely do believe is that GW considers TW3 to be good advertising for Old World. We've already seen a couple of the new Kislev units from the trailer in the promotional materials for Kislev in Old World, and I'd imagine that anything else new we see in TW3 is liable to be in Old World. It's why I'm pretty sure Cathay is going to be coming out in the Old World alongside Kislev, because otherwise there's really very little reason to have it just be a thing for Total War Warhammer 3.
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 18:39 |
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:It's only about as lazy as most of the Brettonian names, which are often just slightly mispelled or mispronounced names of actual French places and people. To the point that the French translations of GW material just corrects them and has them read as the real life places. Punching down is different than attacking other white people. Part of France was even owned by England, that's pretty different. Lord_Magmar posted:Yes, the name that Japan itself is fine using for fantasy magical mythical Japan is a perfectly fine name to use, and is literally the only thing I actually even remotely care about keeping. Making up an entirely new faction wholecloth is unnecessary because the lovely racist lore is from the 80s but there's nothing actually racist about the names of the nations (the names of the characters are different and I was not arguing for them). So you agree they should change literally everything about it, but you think the name is fine and cool and want to keep that. Well, we at least 99% agree so maybe don't start with "This is the worst take I've ever seen" next time and we can skip the whole racism flamewar.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:48
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Punching down is different than attacking other white people. Japan isn't down, they're a G7 country with an advanced economy and way more cultural transmission back and forth with the West than any other non-Western country, and they seem to mostly be bewildered whenever someone here gets angry about people appropriating Japanese culture. Obviously going out of the way to be insensitive or give offense would be a bad thing, but even you don't think CA is going to do that, so what the gently caress are we arguing about?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:50
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Punching down is different than attacking other white people. Part of France was even owned by England, that's pretty different. And the British making fun of France is still them punching down, arguably the British can only punch down, their Empire was the greatest in the world and literally every nation it knew felt it's bootheel when it was at full power. Also, the British making fun of the Scottish and the Welsh is absolutely punching down (seriously, the British hosed everyone over very badly for very very long periods of history). You think France was happy the British owned them?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Punching down is different than attacking other white people. Part of France was even owned by England, that's pretty different.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:52
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Using an old timey name for a real place isn't punching down so long as the actual content isn't racist. Which given current CA presentation, history with games in that setting, and presumed desire to actually sell poo poo in that region to their established customer base, I doubt that content will be racist except by accident. Especially a name said place uses and likes, compared to just making up some name for the area.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Using an old timey name for a real place isn't punching down so long as the actual content isn't racist. Which given current CA presentation, history with games in that setting, and presumed desire to actually sell poo poo in that region to their established customer base, I doubt that content will be racist except by accident. name + post juxtaposition
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Using an old timey name for a real place isn't punching down so long as the actual content isn't racist. Which given current CA presentation, history with games in that setting, and presumed desire to actually sell poo poo in that region to their established customer base, I doubt that content will be racist except by accident. Yeah but at this point we've moved to "Okay, all the LL lord names are racist, the culture is a caricature, the name of the religion is racist, and the unit types are racist, but lets keep the name" Like, okay, but you're basically splitting hairs here and you've basically agreed with the original point I made. I'm not sure why you're so focused on the name alone and think it has to be saved, but at least we all agree on literally everything else about the lore of that faction needing to be completely deleted and replaced. I just wish y'all had realized that was what we suggested to start with. And again not sure why "just change everything" bothers you so much if you agree on the former part, but whatever!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
If you ever got that Araby Sandstone event and used that construction cost discount bonus, buddy, I hope you enjoy being in the gulag
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:54
|
|
|
albany academy posted:How did i not notice mag ururk thraka before lmao 80's GW seemed to really hate Thatcher (as is right and proper). In addition to Mag Ururk Thraka in 40K, there was an Emperess Magritta in fantasy. Upon taking the throne in Imperial year 1979 she led the Empire into a horrible dark age which it took 400 years to recover from. Also White Dwarf #81, September 1986 included an Orc War banners with this on it. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:55
|
|
|
I dont know posted:80's GW seemed to really hate Thatcher (as is right and proper). In addition to Mag Ururk Thraka in 40K, there was an Emperess Magritta in fantasy. Upon taking the throne in Imperial year 1979 she led the Empire into a horrible dark age which it took 400 years to recover from. hell yeah
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:55
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but at this point we've moved to "Okay, all the LL lord names are racist, the culture is a caricature, the name of the religion is racist, and the unit types are racist, but lets keep the name" Terrible Opinions fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Mar 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 19:59
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but at this point we've moved to "Okay, all the LL lord names are racist, the culture is a caricature, the name of the religion is racist, and the unit types are racist, but lets keep the name" oh yeah totally
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:00
|
|
|
Why are we arguing about the potential addition of a faction for a game that hasn't released yet? This will not be relevant for at least two years. Lets go back to arguing about changing existing races, like why Beastmen will never become good or how Skaven are somehow going to get three more DLCs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:07
|
|
|
pretty sure the 'mag uruk thraka' thing is just a funny coincidence
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:07
|
|
|
Grand Cathay, Nippon, and Ind have been cancelled. In their place will be the rest of the Skaven clans in lore as three separate DLCs. There is a racist subtext to this
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:08
|
|
|
can't wait for the pygmies expansion
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:11
|
|
|
Pygmies are renamed to Pigmies and are just a Beastmen subfaction with Bebop from Ninja Turtles as the Legendary Lord.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:12
|
|
|
There is still a racist subtext to this
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
orangelex44 posted:Why are we arguing about the potential addition of a faction for a game that hasn't released yet? This will not be relevant for at least two years. Lets go back to arguing about changing existing races, like why Beastmen will never become good or how Skaven are somehow going to get three more DLCs. TW3 main factions are just skaven in obvious disguises
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:There is still a racist subtext to this Yeah maybe drop bebop
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:17
|
|
|
Punching down is frowned upon but punching Zaphod is a real crowd pleaser
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:17
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:And the British making fun of France is still them punching down, arguably the British can only punch down, their Empire was the greatest in the world and literally every nation it knew felt it's bootheel when it was at full power. Also, the British making fun of the Scottish and the Welsh is absolutely punching down (seriously, the British hosed everyone over very badly for very very long periods of history). You think France was happy the British owned them? But the french conquered the English. We still use french words to describe food, and English for the names of the animals. Like beef when its on the plate, and cow on the farm, and pork/pig. Because the poor english farmed, and the rich french ate. My point being that making fun of the french is an a sparticusian third word revolutionary act, and its very very brave. Bob the terrible fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Mar 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:19
|
|
|
I wonder if the fact that most of the candidates for new armies are populated by humans who are also the Warhammer equivalent of good guys gives GW and CA pause in implementing them, despite the wildly varying cultures and armies they’d be based on. You’d want to throw in some good and evil non-humans in there. For that we just have the snake men of Khuresh. The oceans are probably home to some dudes we haven’t met yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
Ind has tiger beastmen who live alongside humans iirc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:28
|
|
|
Dr Christmas posted:I wonder if the fact that most of the candidates for new armies are populated by humans who are also the Warhammer equivalent of good guys gives GW and CA pause in implementing them, despite the wildly varying cultures and armies they’d be based on. You’d want to throw in some good and evil non-humans in there. For that we just have the snake men of Khuresh. The oceans are probably home to some dudes we haven’t met yet. Lost Isles of Elithis are sortof like Warhammer Australia and have High Elves / Sea Elves which could be a good guy faction to mess with that region. And up in the Eastern Steppes you basically have Norscans, although I guess they're chaos.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
They are starting with 4 evil chaos races in game, plus they’ve still got the Chaos Dwarves (evil) and the Ogres (Hungry but Neutral) still to come.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:30
|
|
|
There's also the Kerg or Kerghit or whatever. Pretty sure they're supposed to be Mongolians but they worship Chaos and Cathay built a bigass wall to stop them from attacking all the time. Of course that's also not exactly the best cultural representation but also Mongolians conducted extremely brutal campaigns that killed millions in China and Eastern Europe so I dunno
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
Just pull a World of Warcraft and have an island rise out of the sea or come out of some mist out on the ocean and *gasp* a whole new faction resided there :O
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:31
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:There's also the Kerg or Kerghit or whatever. Pretty sure they're supposed to be Mongolians but they worship Chaos and Cathay built a bigass wall to stop them from attacking all the time. I think the Ogres were also vaguely Genghis Khan era Mongolian themed at some point too. Although it never really overshadowed or was visible compared to the whole tall fat eat anything work for anyone mercenary and hunger obsessed culture.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:34
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:
This conversation has been interesting to read, but I just can't get over this magic sword called Toyota. This whole thing reads like a parody. What the hell was GW thinking when they came up with that? I want to contact this writer, I want to ask what they were thinking in that writing room all those years ago. Did they run out of Japanese references? What made them go to cars?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:35
|
|
|
Nippon wasn't much of a thing and still isn't, tbh. It was mostly jokes
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:35
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:There's also the Kerg or Kerghit or whatever. Pretty sure they're supposed to be Mongolians but they worship Chaos and Cathay built a bigass wall to stop them from attacking all the time. The Kergans are mostly like Norscans. The real Mongolians are the "Hung" ( facepalm ) who are non-stop racist stereotypes, but as a result / that's because they haven't really been touched on in a long time. Cardboard Fox posted:This conversation has been interesting to read, but I just can't get over this magic sword called Toyota. This whole thing reads like a parody. What the hell was GW thinking when they came up with that? It was the 80s, there was no internet and not many people had actually been to Japan so people didn't know as much. And the whole thing was basically an idea they coke-dreamed up one weekend, then everybody said "yeah that's a bad idea lets not do that after all" and they put it down and haven't touched it since. Again, all the more reason to just forget it ever existed and make up something new instead.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:38
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:I think the Ogres were also vaguely Genghis Khan era Mongolian themed at some point too. Although it never really overshadowed or was visible compared to the whole tall fat eat anything work for anyone mercenary and hunger obsessed culture. Sort of They had Fu Manchu mustaches but I'm not sure that's a mongol thing  
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:40
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:I think the Ogres were also vaguely Genghis Khan era Mongolian themed at some point too. Although it never really overshadowed or was visible compared to the whole tall fat eat anything work for anyone mercenary and hunger obsessed culture. They are, and some of the new sculpts lean on the Fu Manchu aesthetic pretty hard. But they at least try to mix it up now and have a variety of Ogres, so you get some that are women or are dark-skinned and.. that helps I guess? E:FB
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:40
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:The Kergans are mostly like Norscans. The real Mongolians are the "Hung" ( facepalm ) who are non-stop racist stereotypes, but as a result / that's because they haven't really been touched on in a long time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
There’s also the bit where they were terrorising and raiding Cathay so much the Dragon Emperor dropped a meteor on them that destroyed their original lush fertile steppe land and drove them away from the horrid burning dessert that remained. So you know they actually had an attempt at being Genghis Khan and it backfired terribly on them (the Ogres I mean). In terms of Nippon, what little they do elude to it (Ogre Ninjas and Clan Eshin) seem fairly standard for full mythology Japan. There’s mention of Tengu and Superpower Samurai and almost magically capable ninja assassins. Which is roughly level with what they would bring up whenever mentioning Cathay (literal dragon emperor , terracotta magic army, super powerful warrior monks, the monkey king). Straight up, if they put in Nippon etc look at what they do with Cathay to get an idea of what they might do to rehabilitate the old lovely racist lore into something new respectful and fun/cool. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:43
|
|
|
Yeah if you're going to have an "evil idiot race" it's probably a bad idea to base it on a real culture 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:44
|
|
|
Dr Christmas posted:I wonder if the fact that most of the candidates for new armies are populated by humans who are also the Warhammer equivalent of good guys gives GW and CA pause in implementing them, despite the wildly varying cultures and armies they’d be based on. You’d want to throw in some good and evil non-humans in there. For that we just have the snake men of Khuresh. The oceans are probably home to some dudes we haven’t met yet. There's no reason that there can't be evil versions of Cathay or Kislev (or Ind or Nippon) lords - same deal as how Tomb Kings had Arkhan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 18:39 |
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:Lost Isles of Elithis are sortof like Warhammer Australia kangaroo mount when
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2021 20:49
|
|
