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Personally my belief is that it's both simultaneously easy and difficult to get a "good" job as an engineer. So much luck, as other have said, in so many steps of the process that I'm wondering if "hard" and "lots of effort" are the right words? I'm looking for something to better account for the stochastic nature of the hunt. Really I just want to make sure this thread doesn't fall into the terrible "LC FOR TC ITS EASY BRO 250K NO PROBLEM" bullshit of /r/cscareerquestions.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:21
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Can someone explain figgieland?
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Jun 27, 2021 21:33
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Armauk posted:Can someone explain figgieland? Means being qualified for and hired into high paying jobs upwards of, I dunno, my guess is $165,000 base.
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Jun 27, 2021 21:50
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Personally my belief is that it's both simultaneously easy and difficult to get a "good" job as an engineer. So much luck, as other have said, in so many steps of the process that I'm wondering if "hard" and "lots of effort" are the right words? I'm looking for something to better account for the stochastic nature of the hunt. All told I put maybe 100 hours into my last job search? Could be higher, but it's ballpark, That doesn't account for my degree or years of experience, but we're talking about difficulty in interviewing. 100 hours is really not a lot of effort for the insane pay raise I got, especially compared to other industries. It was stressful though, and there was no guarantee of success. So not hard in terms of effort, maybe draining or mentally taxing? It's less stressful if you don't hate your job or worry about losing it but that's usually why I interview in the first place. Also less stressful if you've done it a bunch, which I don't think applies to most people. Armauk posted:Can someone explain figgieland? San Francisco bay area is where you can get the highest pay in the industry right now. Figgies refers to the significant figures in your total compensation but can be shorthand for a high salary, so SFBA = figgieland. Some people might include places like New York, Seattle, or Austin that have FAANG offices, but it depends on the context. Shruggoth fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 27, 2021 |
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Jun 27, 2021 21:50
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Pollyanna posted:Means being qualified for and hired into high paying jobs upwards of, I dunno, my guess is $165,000 base. Shruggoth posted:San Francisco bay area is where you can get the highest salaries in the industry right now, or figgies, so SFBA = figgieland. Some people might include places like New York, Seattle, or Austin that have FAANG offices, but it depends on the context. Thank you, both!
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Jun 27, 2021 21:54
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thotsky posted:US tech salaries are crazy, even with loads of experience salaries are mostly capped at like 150k here in Norway, and as far as I know that's true for the big companies with offices here too. I am doing really great for 4 years (90th percentile) and pull in 105k. downout posted:From what I can tell Norway has a higher COL too. Norway has a much smaller variation from the lowest paid to the highest paid, it's part of why it's a functional society (  ) - so yeah, as a developer you can hit a ceiling pretty easily at around 100k USD - but unless you want to live a stupid rich life, there's no point in worrying about it. I don't earn anywhere near the 150k USD (I'm guessing thats FANG offices in Norway?) - and I still live a ridiculously comfortable life. The Big Mac index is cute and fun, and sure, things are expensive in Norway - but Norway pays its people a lot more too: The average person makes something ridiculous like $60k a year, across everyone. And that's to hardly look at developer salaries in the rest of Europe - just hopping the border into Denmark, Sweden, or Finland and you take a ridiculous pay hit.You can absolutely live without a care in the world on developer pay here - so long as you aren't trying to *have literally everything all at once*. Aka: A huge apartment in downtown Oslo, and a car, and a cabin, and a boat, and expensive hobbies, and eating out six nights a week.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:03
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Huh, I figured we were being metaphorical.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:05
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I guess it could be metaphorical too, I haven't really followed the tech forums in a long time.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:16
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I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior"
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Jun 27, 2021 22:51
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T-minus 3 months and counting.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:55
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Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" Zero on both counts, no concrete plans either. And for your second sentence, I assume the same heh.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:57
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SA Forums skew a little older, but probably the people who post regularly are younger than a lot of the people who mostly lurk. I have no dependents.
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Jun 27, 2021 22:58
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Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" I flatly refuse to have children (in fact I can't), and I am currently single. That should neither count for nor against me in terms of negotiation, fair pay, and a reasonable workload.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:05
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Personally my belief is that it's both simultaneously easy and difficult to get a "good" job as an engineer. So much luck, as other have said, in so many steps of the process that I'm wondering if "hard" and "lots of effort" are the right words? I'm looking for something to better account for the stochastic nature of the hunt. The difficulty for me is in preparing for all of the possibilities I may encounter. Algo/whiteboarding feels like an almost completely separate skill set from what I do day to day, and spending PTO to go get grilled and run through the gauntlet and hope that my arbitrarily drawn lot is favorable is stressful. I have difficulty being sincere through the exercises, because it feels degrading. It's worth it in the end to even the playing field with my employers and reduce the deal they're getting by keeping me around at a discount. Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" Married with no kids, we're both in our 30s
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Jun 27, 2021 23:05
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Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" married, one kid, ms jones hasn't gone back to work yet. dunno if/when she will
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Jun 27, 2021 23:13
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Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? Zero. And I'm grateful every day for it.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:14
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Pollyanna posted:That should neither count for nor against me in terms of negotiation, fair pay, and a reasonable workload. Lordy, not at all and definitely wasn't what I was implying! I was curious because whenever discussion of interview prep time comes up it's interesting to me what the demographics of folks who think significant prep is reasonable are. My guess is that they're either single and/or have no dependents so sacrificing personal time to cram seems reasonable but I didn't want to make assumptions, hence the ask. I mention it because it comes up time and time again in tech interviewing culture where companies seem to think it's reasonable to expect a level of prep from candidates that selects for a very specific type of candidate. It's yet another way that tech culture selects for employees who don't do anything other than work and tbh it's something that concerns me more than salaries normalizing because it's far more insidious.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:20
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Cuntpunch posted:And that's to hardly look at developer salaries in the rest of Europe - just hopping the border into Denmark, Sweden, or Finland and you take a ridiculous pay hit.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:21
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Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" I'm 38, 39 in a few weeks so as far as this thread goes, I think I'm relatively old. Been married for a few years. Wife isn't working right now and even when she is working she makes maybe 1/4th of what I do at best so it really doesn't factor into things much. No kids. Mother in law might be a dependent in a few years depending on how the dice roll. [edit] And I don't do interview prep, but also haven't changed jobs in almost a decade so  . I did read CTCI a few years ago because I interviewed at Google. But unless I absolutely need to I have zero interest in working through problems ad nauseum to play algorithm trivia.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:23
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gay_crimes posted:The difficulty for me is in preparing for all of the possibilities I may encounter. Algo/whiteboarding feels like an almost completely separate skill set from what I do day to day, and spending PTO to go get grilled and run through the gauntlet and hope that my arbitrarily drawn lot is favorable is stressful. I have difficulty being sincere through the exercises, because it feels degrading. It's worth it in the end to even the playing field with my employers and reduce the deal they're getting by keeping me around at a discount. I've gotten to a point where I don't even hate all whiteboarding. The things I've been able to practice, I've gotten quite good at and become way more comfortable with. There could just as easily be a really favorable interview loop for me with reasonable questions as there could a completely terrible one. When I started I definitely didn't feel this way, but I've prepped probably 50 hours at this point, and am getting way more comfortable. It would be cool if you got like a pool of topics to choose from, not "some patterns for popular LeetCode questions then a bunch of arbitrarily mathy bullshit".
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Jun 27, 2021 23:24
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Blinkz0rz posted:Lordy, not at all and definitely wasn't what I was implying! As a married parent, I do sometimes feel like not being an unlovable permavirgin puts me at a disadvantage. Seems like most people who get promotions work nonstop because they have no other responsibilities or desires.
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Jun 27, 2021 23:24
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rt4 posted:As a married parent, I do sometimes feel like not being an unlovable permavirgin puts me at a disadvantage. Seems like most people who get promotions work nonstop because they have no other responsibilities or desires. Even married without kids, I get a lot of "Joey Joe Joe needs to take his kids to [the doctor/soccer practice/school/insert kid activity here], do you mind completely reworking your schedule for him?" But if I say "I want to have a date night with my wife" I get a lot of 
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Jun 27, 2021 23:27
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I'm married with 0 kids and no plans to have any. Just bought a house in Denver. We are both early 30s, my wife makes more than double what I do.
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Jun 28, 2021 00:04
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Married with a kid, many of my coworkers are the same. As bad as interviewing and interview prep is in our industry, it's not like there's an industry where it is easier to make buckets of money. You can top $100k with a bootcamp and maybe a few years experience without ever dealing with algorithm interviews and with experience, interview prep, and some luck you can get $200k+ and even $500k+ isn't out of the question. Other careers making that kind of money are gated behind years and years of college.
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Jun 28, 2021 00:20
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My new team is 6 guys, one has two kids in college, two are unmarried DINK* renters, two are married homeowners and have 7 month old babies. One of the new parents is my hiring manager. I'm joining their team married homeowner with a 7 month old baby. So that's three 7 month old babies in a team of six. And I'm being very fairly compensated (casually glancing at this thread, looks like I am comfortably in the upper third. When I get settled over there I might share more details). Only reason why I mention renter vs homeowner, is not only do you have to manage your work and spouse, but also have to pay property taxes on time to the city and manage keeping your house from falling apart around you. When you rent you just make one phone call and the problem gets solved. *dual income, no kids
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Jun 28, 2021 01:14
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Blinkz0rz posted:Lordy, not at all and definitely wasn't what I was implying! I have a kid, but didn't last time I prepped. I also don't think it's fair to parents, but I'm advocating for preparation from a view of how the industry is, not how it should be. I don't believe I could pass a Google-style interview (3-5 leetcode algorithm questions) without doing another prep session. It would suck and might take longer than last time, but I could carve out time if I had to. Some people can get by without it, but preparation is the only way I know to get a real leg up in an algo interview. It's also far from necessary if you're not looking at top-paying tech companies, though some ape Google because they think it's the best way to find the best candidates (it's not).
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Jun 28, 2021 01:25
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Jose Valasquez posted:As bad as interviewing and interview prep is in our industry, it's not like there's an industry where it is easier to make buckets of money. You can top $100k with a bootcamp and maybe a few years experience without ever dealing with algorithm interviews and with experience, interview prep, and some luck you can get $200k+ and even $500k+ isn't out of the question. Other careers making that kind of money are gated behind years and years of college. Yeah, show me any other line of work where you can push tickets around in JIRA and make as much money as a specialist physician, but without having to spend eight years in med school. 
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Jun 28, 2021 02:01
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I mean, it's a little weird to be celebrating the fact that a handful of people are lucky enough to get paid the Mega Bucks while plenty of people in our industry are not paid nearly that much, and the people that do get to get paid that much are seemingly arbitrarily selected to an extent. But, sure.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:03
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kitten smoothie posted:Yeah, show me any other line of work where you can push tickets around in JIRA and make as much money as a specialist physician, but without having to spend eight years in med school. Uh, that's average salary. The average salary for computer touchers is significantly lower.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:04
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I mean, it's a little weird to be celebrating the fact that a handful of people are lucky enough to get paid the Mega Bucks while plenty of people in our industry are not paid nearly that much, and the people that do get to get paid that much are seemingly arbitrarily selected to an extent. But, sure. Blinkz0rz posted:Uh, that's average salary. The average salary for computer touchers is significantly lower.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:07
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There is a little tiny part of me that thinks it's good because even the people who don't have the privilige to attend years of school can maybe, on a very off chance, come close to that kind of money via coding at a FAANG or Lite. But then there are a ton of problems with the interview process that favor younger folks, people without bills and families etc, and I get a little sad again.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:10
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Blinkz0rz posted:Lordy, not at all and definitely wasn't what I was implying! Ah, yeah, sorry no problem - that was more of a screaming-into-the-aether thing.  I also deeply dislike the direction tech culture’s taken where personal time is looked down upon. That’s one thing I’m glad for at my workplace, they’re way more accommodating of people with kids than other places I’ve seen and heard of.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:13
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Only one can be true! I don't agree with the other poster for one. I think a top 50% engineer should be able to study and then get an offer from 10, maybe 20, screens. Compared to almost any other field that makes FAANG money the effort required is ludicrously low, not zero but low. Most comparable fields require a competitive undergrad degree, a even more competitive post graduate degree and work crazy hours. The two most common, medicine and law, are guilds that limit membership. And if you don't want to put in the effort, you don't need to and can make around the BLS average of 110k.
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Jun 28, 2021 02:47
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asur posted:I don't agree with the other poster for one. I think a top 50% engineer should be able to study and then get an offer from 10, maybe 20, screens. I don't disagree with this at all, but "20 screens'" is bascially already beyond FAANG and FAANG-lite. The dropoff in terms of salary after 20 companies is likely extremely non-trivial. I'm not arguing that it's hard to get a job in engineering.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:11
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Levels.fyi does not provide reasonable aggregation for this, but from what I can tell there are at least 40 companies where an IC with 10 years experience makes over $300k/year. I suspect that even a fairly mediocre software developer who set aside a year to getting a job at one of them would usually succeed assuming that they are not unhirable for reasons unrelated to their skill. That's a sort of absurd thing to propose that someone do, but I suppose if the point of comparison is law school or medical school it is less onerous that those.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:40
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I mean, it's a little weird to be celebrating the fact that a handful of people are lucky enough to get paid the Mega Bucks while plenty of people in our industry are not paid nearly that much, and the people that do get to get paid that much are seemingly arbitrarily selected to an extent. But, sure. Doing some Googling the average US Software Engineer salary is over $100k, so it's not like your average non-FAANG computer toucher is living on the street. It's a good career whether you're at FAANG or not. Before FAANG my career was thoroughly average and I was very comfortable. I feel like the problems with industry pay are capitalism problems, not really industry problems
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Jun 28, 2021 03:42
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Cuntpunch posted:Norway has a much smaller variation from the lowest paid to the highest paid, it's part of why it's a functional society ( This is one aspect of it, but a few groups do manage to break out, like finance and top leadership, which makes it seem a little more conservative.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:47
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Good Will Hrunting posted:Only one can be true! Eh, this might seem pedantic but for reasons that I think might be helpful to set expectations: I think both can be true. A lot of success finding and getting high paying can be due simply to being in the right place at the right time, having the right connections, getting lucky, etc. So the effort required can be low, but doesn’t mean it’s reasonable to expect it to be easy or successful for anyone individual, and if you are having a hard time of it it’s not necessarily because you’re less qualified than someone for whom it was easier. Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" Two nearly 4 year olds. On the earlier subject of comp, I’m a senior staff engineer, 13 years out of a combined bachelors/masters from a big name school, and paid on the upper end of what other folks have shared. I think it’s likely that much of that is a combination of the school on the resume, and having done well at my current job (of nearly 8 years), perhaps a privileged position, but I’ve done well having focused my personal development on things like designing data systems, learning about the Linux kernel, database internals, etc, and practically 0 leetcode type stuff aside from exploring out of curiosity. I think the former makes you a better engineer and the latter perhaps a better interviewer; I chose the latter in the stubborn belief that it would be more valuable to the companies I care to work for. But I’m lucky in that I’ve never felt pressed for income, and while I’ve probably left a lot of money on the table over the years I’ve felt relatively stress free.
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Jun 28, 2021 03:53
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Jose Valasquez posted:I feel like the problems with industry pay are capitalism problems, not really industry problems I mean…okay, yes, but that is is not saying much because the tech industry is how it is in the US thanks to unfettered capitalism. I doubt the industry would look anything like the way it does today if there were even the slightest guard rails against individuals hoarding wealth or such an idea as labor rights in most states. edit: Blinkz0rz posted:I'm curious how many folks in this thread have children or other dependents? I know this is the oldie thread, but I assume it's oldie like 3 years of experience is "senior" No dependents, though my parents are pushing 80 so we’ll see how that’ll go over the next few years. I’m about to turn 39 and I have 16 years of industry experience. My wife is a public librarian so we’re technically a dual income household but our earnings are extremely imbalanced. csammis fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jun 28, 2021 |
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Jun 28, 2021 03:54
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Good Will Hrunting posted:I don't disagree with this at all, but "20 screens'" is bascially already beyond FAANG and FAANG-lite. The dropoff in terms of salary after 20 companies is likely extremely non-trivial. I counted 17 public companies from https://www.levels.fyi/charts.html where an IC with 5 years experience makes 200k. I don't think that's comprehensive as I didn't see a single finance company. They may not be FAANG lite but there are a lot of options if your goal is to make 200k.
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Jun 28, 2021 04:04
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