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The theatrical cut works as some sort of fever dream logic, but it was absolutely gutted by having a whole fifth of the runtime removed.
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Jul 6, 2021 21:50
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MiddleOne posted:Aquaman has some pacing issues but is thoroughly ok which is more than I can say for WW84 or BvS. WW84 is the only DC movie I feel the way most people seem to feel about every DC movie. An absolute tonal mess, making odd and confusing choices that capsize any investment I may have had in the story or character. Though I guess Suicide Squad flies pretty close to that, too. I'm thoroughly in the camp that BvS is far more good than bad, though. It's very coherent on a character and thematic level, and has an actual argument about the characters at its core. At this point, I'm convinced that the main reason people hate it is because they're precious about Batman, who is rightfully depicted as an insane, violent psychopath fueled by trauma.
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Jul 6, 2021 21:56
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I don't mind Justice Squad but there's really nothing about it I liked very much either. It had maybe one neat scene (the Flash slow-motion stuff) and the rest was just sort of there
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Jul 6, 2021 22:00
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The theatrical cut was a dull and confusing mess.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:01
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I wish the theatrical cut had taken out the Knightmare and kept in the scenes of Clark being an investigative reporter
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Jul 6, 2021 22:06
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Zzulu posted:I don't mind Justice Squad but there's really nothing about it I liked very much either. It had maybe one neat scene (the Flash slow-motion stuff) and the rest was just sort of there I found its earnestness and absolute sincerity immensely refreshing, and its theme of overcoming trauma via solidarity and rediscovering genuine faith in other people and oneself (and then going on to fight and kill space fascists) pretty goddamn timely both personally and in general Also no-one shoots punch man fight scenes like Snyder.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:08
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WW84 is like a slightly better Joss Whedon movie The mall fight is somehow the least bad action scene in the film A True Jar Jar Fan fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 22:16
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It is pretty clear that the longer cuts of Justice League and BvS are overall better movies, but also kind of equally damning that you needed more than 4 hours to tell the very minimal story of Justice League. A well-crafted Justice League movie would not be over 4 hours long.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:27
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It is pretty clear that the longer cuts of Justice League and BvS are overall better movies, but also kind of equally damning that you needed more than 4 hours to tell the very minimal story of Justice League. Why not?
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Jul 6, 2021 22:37
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Ostensibly, Lord of the Rings is a story about a party getting an evil ring and dumping it in a volcano while elves learn to be less dickish. It gets three books/11 hours of runtime though because the fun is in the journey and the worldbuilding. Yeah, you probably could have made a 120 minute Justice League movie, maybe even an 80 minute movie! But the 4 hour runtime lets the universe breathe.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:44
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Neurolimal posted:Ostensibly, Lord of the Rings is a story about a party getting an evil ring and dumping it in a volcano while elves learn to be less dickish. It gets three books/11 hours of runtime though because the fun is in the journey and the worldbuilding. Agreed. Plus also it had to smush not one but two character introductions/origin stories in, both of which - and the Cyborg one in particular, probably the highlight of the whole film - came off really, really well.
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Jul 6, 2021 22:58
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Barry Foster posted:Why not? In terms of enjoyment, anything is going to suffer by demanding excessive time commitments. Even the most engaging content can't capture a human attention span for 4 hours consistently and I think it would be a hard argument to make that every second of those 4+ hours was vital to the understanding of the movie. It gives short shrift to the integral parts of your story. To quote Kenny Burns: quote:The essence of cinema is editing. Cut until you can cut no more. A well-made film will be direct, simple, brief, vigorous, and lucid. When you are editing, the final master is Aristotle and his poetics. You might have a terrific episode, but if people are falling out because there are just too many elements in it, you have to begin to get rid of things. Every syllable that can be struck out is pure profit, and every page that can be economised is a dividend. Or Stevie King, whose quote practices what it preaches: quote:The road to hell is paved with adverbs.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:07
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I think the thing that probably hangs over Justice League is that the actual conflict of Steppenwolf and the New Gods isn't all that compelling or always particularly coherent even in the four hour cut. And that's kind of a fundamental issue with the whole thing even if the final cut is stronger. But regardless, it has some pretty strong character work particularly with Batman, Superman's family, and Wonder Woman regardless. I think what's frustrating is that while a four hour cut might seem silly, there is clear stuff to cut: The lovely epilogue at the ending, some of the Aquaman singing. Like there is fat to cut down to get down to a three hour cut and that seems pretty reasonable even if the underlying conflict is somewhat slight. I think it would have been a pretty flawed movie, but a flawed movie with some interesting and compelling stuff in it, would have been enjoyed by the people already into Snyder's movies, and seems like it would have won over people suspect.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:11
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Someone could definitely make a good 2 hour Justice League movie, but I don't think Zack Snyder could. His version of the universe is more mythologized and epic (in the tradition of stuff like Ben-Hur or Cleopatra), so kind of necessitates a longer runtime as part of the storytelling method. The HBO Max version of the movie probably helped to offset the time commitment by adding chapter breaks, but people will binge entire seasons of television in one day so it may not be necessary. If you want a good, short Justice League movie, someone like Adam McKay might be a good choice, since he's got experience dealing with ensemble casts with large personalities. The action might suffer due to his lack of experience with large scale VFX movies, but unless you're doing something really novel conceptually, the action in all these superhero movies just feels like filler.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:12
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I really don't want a cutaway to Lana Lang in a bathtub explaining Anti-Life.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:15
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Snyder Cut didn't need to be four hours, because that was a decision made long after shooting was done. The runtime was finalized after it was confirmed that the film would be released direct to streaming, where you have no real limit on runtime. Snyder had considered releasing it as a miniseries, and you can see that reflected in the distinct chapters. The footage was originally shot with a three-hour theatrical release in mind. Midway through production, the studio demanded that the film be cut to under 120. Snyder tested out various cuts, ranging from over 240 minutes to 140 minutes, before leaving the project. The most famous of these cuts was 214 minutes, or 3.5 hours.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:15
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MiddleOne posted:The theatrical cut was a dull and confusing mess. Chris terrio talked about that in an interview, said something like "of course the film is confusing when you cut out a whole half hour of the film". 2house2fly posted:I wish the theatrical cut had taken out the Knightmare and kept in the scenes of Clark being an investigative reporter The knightmare scene is great because it works both as a prophetic premonition and also as a look into the character of this Batman. Also Mad Max Batman is loving awesome. But yeah I agree, if they really needed to cut so much out (they didn't) they should have axed the knightmare scene and kept in the Clark stuff. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:In terms of enjoyment, anything is going to suffer by demanding excessive time commitments. Even the most engaging content can't capture a human attention span for 4 hours consistently and I think it would be a hard argument to make that every second of those 4+ hours was vital to the understanding of the movie. It gives short shrift to the integral parts of your story. If this was a film to be showed in movie theatres, I would be more inclined to agree, but it's on streaming services, divided into 6 chapters, so one can just treat it as two different movies, or 6 episodes. Besides, the pacing in that film is excellent, it doesn't really feel like 4 hours at all. I def think the 4 hour rtuntime is to the films benefit. Personally i think a film should be just as long as it needs to be, I don't really hold to the idea that they need to be a specific runtime.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:18
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:In terms of enjoyment, anything is going to suffer by demanding excessive time commitments. Even the most engaging content can't capture a human attention span for 4 hours consistently and I think it would be a hard argument to make that every second of those 4+ hours was vital to the understanding of the movie. It gives short shrift to the integral parts of your story. Stephen King isn’t exactly a virtuoso prose stylist. Brevity isn’t an inherent good.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:22
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McCloud posted:The knightmare scene is great because it works both as a prophetic premonition and also as a look into the character of this Batman. Also Mad Max Batman is loving awesome. But yeah I agree, if they really needed to cut so much out (they didn't) they should have axed the knightmare scene and kept in the Clark stuff. Snyder mentioned in an interview one time that if he has an idea that he likes for a movie, he just puts it in because there's no guarantee he'll ever have another chance to do it. It really explains a lot of the weird asides his movies have where it breaks away from the main plot for a while to do a cool vignette that could stand on its own as a short film but might ultimately hurt the move as a whole.
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Jul 6, 2021 23:27
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Robot Style posted:Snyder mentioned in an interview one time that if he has an idea that he likes for a movie, he just puts it in because there's no guarantee he'll ever have another chance to do it. It really explains a lot of the weird asides his movies have where it breaks away from the main plot for a while to do a cool vignette that could stand on its own as a short film but might ultimately hurt the move as a whole. See also, the epilogue in ZSJL. I personally love Mad Max Batman, and I can't imagine losing that. Like it's such an insane idea but it works so well
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Jul 7, 2021 00:30
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You can just take the Deathstroke/Lex scene and the Knightmare sequence as what would have been post credits sequences in a theatrical release.
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Jul 7, 2021 00:44
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Roth posted:You can just take the Deathstroke/Lex scene and the Knightmare sequence as what would have been post credits sequences in a theatrical release. Having the Knightmare sequence as a post credit stinger for BvS would've made for a very interesting narrative set up.
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Jul 7, 2021 00:54
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I became a fan of Deathstroke after seeing his two scenes and half a dozen lines at the end of ZSJL, and am now gutted to find out he hasn't actually been in any cartoons or anything that I can see, other than a couple of video games
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Jul 7, 2021 02:48
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McCloud posted:See also, the epilogue in ZSJL. I personally love Mad Max Batman, and I can't imagine losing that. Like it's such an insane idea but it works so well I'll never stop seeing this as Zodiac Job System League.
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Jul 7, 2021 02:51
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Can you even have an interesting journey in the DC universe? Lord of the Rings works because most of the cast are just regular folk. When your cast has a mix of reality defying powers, there's not a lot you can do to keep the story from being resolved right away.
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Jul 7, 2021 02:54
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2house2fly posted:I became a fan of Deathstroke after seeing his two scenes and half a dozen lines at the end of ZSJL, and am now gutted to find out he hasn't actually been in any cartoons or anything that I can see, other than a couple of video games He was a recurring (and the most memorable) villain in the Teen Titans cartoon, though he was just called Slade
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Jul 7, 2021 02:55
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2house2fly posted:I became a fan of Deathstroke after seeing his two scenes and half a dozen lines at the end of ZSJL, and am now gutted to find out he hasn't actually been in any cartoons or anything that I can see, other than a couple of video games Not sure if this is a joke, but he’s in basically all the cartoons (namely Teen Titans), and also the Arrow TV show. You may need to look for Slade Wilson, though.
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Jul 7, 2021 02:55
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2house2fly posted:I became a fan of Deathstroke after seeing his two scenes and half a dozen lines at the end of ZSJL, and am now gutted to find out he hasn't actually been in any cartoons or anything that I can see, other than a couple of video games He's in Teen Titans, but they just call him 'Slade' and he's voiced by Ron Perlman. He's not really a merc for hire in that version, and more of a criminal mastermind though.
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Jul 7, 2021 02:55
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Freakazoid_ posted:Can you even have an interesting journey in the DC universe? Lord of the Rings works because most of the cast are just regular folk. When your cast has a mix of reality defying powers, there's not a lot you can do to keep the story from being resolved right away. I mean, Kingdom Come, Greek epics in the general, Gandalf is literally an angel. The answer to "what journey do you have for powerful characters" is "have them accomplish powerful feats". DC has typically done the "huge epic" Alex Ross tone real well, and fallen on its face embarassingly when aping Marvel. Will be interesting to see what Flash is like.
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Jul 7, 2021 03:00
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Roth posted:He's in Teen Titans, but they just call him 'Slade' and he's voiced by Ron Perlman. He's not really a merc for hire in that version, and more of a criminal mastermind though. They basically cut the bullshit and made him what the comics havebeen trying to for a while Evil Batman
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Jul 7, 2021 03:00
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Freakazoid_ posted:Can you even have an interesting journey in the DC universe? Lord of the Rings works because most of the cast are just regular folk. When your cast has a mix of reality defying powers, there's not a lot you can do to keep the story from being resolved right away. Which is why the characters have endured for 80 years and used in a massive variety of stories, tones, and reinterpretations? Burkion posted:They basically cut the bullshit and made him what the comics havebeen trying to for a while Yeah, I think he's probably the best version of the character.
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Jul 7, 2021 03:03
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Freakazoid_ posted:Can you even have an interesting journey in the DC universe? Lord of the Rings works because most of the cast are just regular folk. When your cast has a mix of reality defying powers, there's not a lot you can do to keep the story from being resolved right away. Practically every member of the Justice league had a story arc that was independent of their ability to punch things hard, and and overcame (or were in the process of overcoming) their various hang ups and problems, with the help of each other. And as others said, their chief opponent was the literal god of evil. Hell, even his deadbeat uncle was enough to stalemate them
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Jul 7, 2021 03:17
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The closest Marvel analogue to someone like Superman, Aquaman, or Wonder Woman is probably Thor, and they handle it primarily by telling stories where he loses his godlike power and has to get it back. Thor 1: Loses his hammer and is exiled to Earth until he becomes worthy of his power again. Thor 3: Loses his hammer and is exiled to Garbage Planet until he learns that the power was inside him all along. Infinity War: Loses his people and is exiled to the Guardians of the Galaxy until he's able to forge a new hammer and regain his power. Endgame: Loses his will to fight and is exiled to depression until he can make amends with the family he failed to protect, and then regains his power. Thor 4: If it's anything like the comics, he becomes unworthy of his power and it goes to Natalie Portman instead. Iron Man is quite similar to Batman and Cyborg, but they intentionally downplay the ramifications of what he could do for the world - his invention of unlimited free energy is used to power his skyscraper in the first Avengers movie, and then never mentioned again. As a Flash parallel, Quicksilver in the X-Men movies is treated appropriately as an I Win button most of the time, until the movie needs to show how strong the villain is by having them disable him somehow.
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Jul 7, 2021 03:50
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Robot Style posted:As a Flash parallel, Quicksilver in the X-Men movies is treated appropriately as an I Win button most of the time, until the movie needs to show how strong the villain is by having them disable him somehow. I love in Apocalypse that it is shown that Quicksilver could almost instantly end the movie, but they have him trip, Apocalypse breaks his ankle, and he just goes away for the rest of the movie.
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Jul 7, 2021 04:00
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Freakazoid_ posted:Lord of the Rings works because most of the cast are just regular folk.
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Jul 7, 2021 10:34
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I love in Apocalypse that it is shown that Quicksilver could almost instantly end the movie, but they have him trip, Apocalypse breaks his ankle, and he just goes away for the rest of the movie.
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Jul 7, 2021 12:35
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Yeah he generally just runs around ineffectively then trips on something. They do give him more to do later though.
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Jul 7, 2021 13:38
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Xealot posted:WW84 is the only DC movie I feel the way most people seem to feel about every DC movie. An absolute tonal mess, making odd and confusing choices that capsize any investment I may have had in the story or character. Though I guess Suicide Squad flies pretty close to that, too. I didnt like it bc I thought it was exceptionally dull. Aquaman is a rollicking sea adventure. The original Batman isnt that great either imo. Have faint positive memories of its sequel but maybe that'll be undone if I rewatch it. If Batman was a pure psycho in BvS I think I'd like it more but theres that exceptionally awkward swerve to make him good again at the end
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Jul 7, 2021 13:44
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Batman 89 is cool because when the Joker menaces him as Bruce Wayne he acts psycho and says "COME ON LET'S GET NUTS!!!!" and then when he catches up to the Joker as Batman he says "I'm going to kill you" and then kills him
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Jul 7, 2021 13:54
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lol. the only Batflick that has any nuance towards the character is Batman Mask of the Phantasm and Batman '66.
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Jul 7, 2021 14:01
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