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I personally think that if Cyberpunk were a lower budget game with next to zero hype and released in the state it was in, folks would indeed remember it as fondly as Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, Planescape, or Deus Ex. Deus Ex in particular because, for all the poo poo Cyberpunk gets as far as "reactivity," it has at least as much if not more reactivity than Deus Ex. I've been replaying Deus Ex since release and it's not some paragon of shifting narratives. It's got a very linear story line, and a choose-one-of-three style endings at the end. It does support a small variety of play styles and folks react to you in different ways, and it was absolutely amazing at the time. Hell, it's amazing now. But I feel like folks are gonna continue to lambast Cyberpunk for what it isn't, instead of appreciating what it is. And at its core, it's got solid writing, solid characters, broken yet still-fun and varied gameplay, and gorgeous world to explore (even if a bit hollow) and so on. It's a good game. Easily an 8-8.5/10 for me.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:08
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chaosapiant posted:I personally think that if Cyberpunk were a lower budget game with next to zero hype and released in the state it was in, folks would indeed remember it as fondly as Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, Planescape, or Deus Ex. lmao, absolutely not. No chance at all. The world isn't interesting to explore, the gameplay is very one-note and boring.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:17
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I'm not sure "just as reactive as a game from 2000" is as much of a selling point as you're making it out to be. Deus Ex lets me approach every map in a bunch of different ways and is highly immersive for the time it was released. Even dumb trap skills like swimming has edge uses that let me be the cool swimming guy. Every time I tried to do something cool with my kit in Cyberpunk it felt like the game was mad at me for even attempting to step out of bounds. The couple of times I recall it working out, like when I bypassed a big chunk of the lovely unworkable combat by leaping to a second story window and going straight to my objective, were so few and far between that it didn't really feel good. It just made all the times where I couldn't do that cool poo poo or make use of the tools at my disposal feel worse.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:21
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Wicked Them Beats posted:I'm not sure "just as reactive as a game from 2000" is as much of a selling point as you're making it out to be. Almost every main level has multiple ways to bypass combat and chunks of the level, even without leg implants. Don’t make poo poo up just because the only thing you can think to do is jump into a window.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:52
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It doesn’t matter if you can find unique and clever ways to do things because most of the time the game doesn’t react properly to whatever the gently caress you did anyway. I lost count of how many cyberpsychos I was accused of killing when I knocked them out, or congratulated for not murdering them after I absolutely did, or gigs where I was chastised for going loud when I’d been a total ghost, or praised for my subtle methods after I’d gone in all guns blazing. There was even one where I was told the optimal way they wanted it solved was to knock a guy out and dump him in the trunk of a waiting car. Actually doing this caused the gig to fail and accuse me of murdering him, so I just reloaded it and killed him up front instead which was apparently completely fine. One of the boxing opponents wanted to give me his car, I said no, he text me a couple of hours later to ask me how I was enjoying his car. It’s a loving mess.
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Nov 16, 2021 23:58
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chaosapiant posted:I personally think that if Cyberpunk were a lower budget game with next to zero hype and released in the state it was in, folks would indeed remember it as fondly as Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, Planescape, or Deus Ex. But there's the rub- if it were lower budget it would be a very different game
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Nov 16, 2021 23:59
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chaosapiant posted:I personally think that if Cyberpunk were a lower budget game with next to zero hype and released in the state it was in, folks would indeed remember it as fondly as Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, Planescape, or Deus Ex. Oh lord no. It would be remembered as a neat cityscape and walking simulator by a handful of fans and literally nothing else. The combats not great the variance is just whatever flavor of exact same thing on every build besides the wizard build. But trying to imagine CP2077 with a significantly lower budget this is just redefining the context of the event so severely that you are no longer talking about the game that was actually released. If 2077 was released with a smaller budget there is no guarantee you're getting the city that you like and not a series of linear corridors. I can guarantee you if that reality had happened even the most die hard fans of this wouldn't give a single gently caress about 2077 beyond calling it a lovely Deus ex rip off. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 00:00
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Vampire is only a masterpiece if you're in it for the dialogue and don't play the last third. Gameplay-wise it has the same problems as Cyberpunk but worse.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:01
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What’s the problem with cyberpunks combat? Even a melee has a bunch of different approaches and builds that are much different from each other.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:11
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Knuc U Kinte posted:What’s the problem with cyberpunks combat? Even a melee has a bunch of different approaches and builds that are much different from each other. feels really easy for the most part, you wallhack people and then shoot them with a railgun through walls or you wallhack people and then regular hack them all to death with zero risk
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Nov 17, 2021 00:14
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There are no builds because the perks don’t do poo poo hth.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:17
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Tirranek posted:Vampire is only a masterpiece if you're in it for the dialogue and don't play the last third. Gameplay-wise it has the same problems as Cyberpunk but worse. It's true. It also proves the meme about sewer levels right, which is a punishing slog and also if you haven't already been brutally disabuses you of any notion this is a game where you could just talk your way through it.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:17
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even with hosed balance the shooting is still better than most fps rpgs. the bar is not very high
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Nov 17, 2021 00:17
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I'm also skeptical that becoming overpowered is a result of skill/equipment investment as opposed to pure levelling. I played as a hacker with cool hack spells up until like level 35, then picked up a homing SMG with poison bullets and ran around destroying everyone as a god of death without having put much in the way of points into SMGs or whatever stat they're associated with. So if you're high enough level you can probably do pretty much anything, which gives me less incentive to start over with a different build
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Nov 17, 2021 00:19
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Which is also how Witcher 3 builds and combat played out: you became an immortal god around levels 10-15 depending on your choices. Also still has the broken perks in the tree. CDPR has never done combat or game balance very well, at least between W3 and CP. But the shooting in this game feels good even if the balance sucks as expected. A lot of the Witcher 3's gameplay failings are in this game too: bad itemization, boring and broken perk trees, terrible balance, awful loot distribution. Same for some of the strenghts. It's like the same company made both games.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:36
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v1ld posted:Which is also how Witcher 3 builds and combat played out: you became an immortal god around levels 10-15 depending on your choices. Also still has the broken perks in the tree. It does feel like you could spec with, say, Quick Attack and some of the signs and that could carry you very far without getting into the weeds of Witcher's combat system.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:37
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Yeah. In that game I felt it was a conscious decision by the devs: here's our vast sweeping story based RPG in this beautiful and detailed world, let's make it easy for players to see the whole thing even with these spectacle fights littered all over. With CP it's not clear what they were going for. I suspect they did not want it to have too much of a gameplay challenge for the same reasons but what we got feels more chaotic than W3. I don't want to use the word unfinished because who the gently caress knows.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:40
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Cyberpunks strengths are it's dialog (though this is contentious some people hate it), it's graphics, and it's universe. The combat is very so so (I'd say it's about the same as HR, it's usually more fun to avoid combat than to engage with it). The leveling elements are meh? It's either a bunch of very boring combat buffs that may or may not do anything, or gatekeeping stats that mostly affect what doors you can open. If they revisit the games balance I think I'd be happy with it. Obviously I want a lot more content but somehow I think a numbers pass will be considerably less expensive than new models, VA, etc.
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Nov 17, 2021 00:55
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Atleast we know because cyberpunk is so bad and such a trainwreck, we wont have to see rereleases every year and ports to every system that exists like skyrim.
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Nov 17, 2021 01:02
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Knuc U Kinte posted:Almost every main level has multiple ways to bypass combat and chunks of the level, even without leg implants. Don’t make poo poo up just because the only thing you can think to do is jump into a window. Yeah they do (almost every minor mission too) and it's implemented in the stupidest way possible. Each level has 3-4 entrances. All you need to do to find which door you specced into opening. Do a circle around the building and if you don't find it then get on the roof. There's a stealth door, a technical door, a strength door, and a shoot everybody door. Quite often they're literally right next to each other. Go find a mission or a gig and see for yourself. Every single one is built exactly the same way.
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Nov 17, 2021 04:02
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i did appreciate that the game let me switch sasquatch's eyes off and just skip past her, completely removing the boss fight
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Nov 17, 2021 04:33
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 at someone using "this game is almost as good as a 20 year old game" as some sort of defense
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Nov 17, 2021 04:35
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Bloodlines gets a pass because it did poo poo I've never seen in a video game at the time. If Bloodlines came out today, it would just be a buggy mess. But it had a kind of mechanical ambition that was admirable, even if they couldn't possibly have ever pulled it off as imagined.
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Nov 17, 2021 09:06
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Knuc U Kinte posted:What’s the problem with cyberpunks combat? Even a melee has a bunch of different approaches and builds that are much different from each other. Perks either don't do anything or just give you more damage, which is just about the most boring way to design perks. You quickly reach a point where said damage perks make it so you kill everything in one shot (or one SMG burst, or one punch). Add to this the extremely overpowered poo poo you can spec into like hacking, crafting, permanent slow motion, wallhack guns, second heart... And you can't make the game even remotely challenging unless you go out of your way to ignore larges chunks of the gameplay and play without perks/cyberware/legendary and unique loot. So the main problem with combat in cyberpunk is that it might as well not exist after a few hours because your character feels like a walking cheat engine, and not even the fun kind. edit: another big problem is the terrible AI that barely reacts to anything you do, making combat and stealth gameplay somehow even more trivial than in other AAA games Eraflure fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Nov 17, 2021 |
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Nov 17, 2021 13:35
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:
true, that someone made a weak argument, because cp2077 is better than most modern games there is a reason it got nominated for RPG Of The Year in The Game Awards by Geoff Keighly
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Nov 17, 2021 13:50
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It’s not even just that 2077’s story feels on rails, it’s that every single physical encounter in this game is “well you could go in guns blazing OR you can just walk around the outside of the building/warehouse/alleyway and there will always, 100% of the time, be a window or hole in the wall or broken fence you can “engineer” (lol!). It’s like, there is no creativity in the physical combat encounter design at all. Every single building has the front door, and an open window or back gate, and it never gets more complicated or involved than that. It doesn’t make me feel like I am being smart or clever or sneaky, it just makes me feel like the developers wanted to make creative and interesting maps but either didn’t have the time or didn’t have the skill. What we have doesn’t achieve the wide-open go anywhere feelings of Deus Ex, it just feels like every single encounter in the game was designed by the same 3 man team who only have 1 idea. For example, in Deus Ex: Mankind Divded, there is a mafia safe house with an enslaved hacker on the second floor. You can: Front door guns blazing Use robot legs to jump through window ——this is how cyberpunk would design this building—— Deus Ex also offers: -Deactivating security system to sneak through adjacent book store and punch through wall -sneak up through basement sewer access -kill gangsters in alleyway, push dumpsters up in corner, jump up to fire escape Do you see the difference? Do you see how having 5 separate points of entry makes this one map more detailed and creatively placed than every encounter in 2077? Except for maybe the Mall, which while sprawling and huge and with multiple routes… except you can’t hack anything or do anything interesting (RIP to workout machine and boxing robot environmental hacks)
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Nov 17, 2021 13:56
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Goa Tse-tung posted:there is a reason it got nominated for RPG Of The Year in The Game Awards by Geoff Keighly Yeah it’s called marketing
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Nov 17, 2021 14:13
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Bust Rodd posted:It’s not even just that 2077’s story feels on rails, it’s that every single physical encounter in this game is “well you could go in guns blazing OR you can just walk around the outside of the building/warehouse/alleyway and there will always, 100% of the time, be a window or hole in the wall or broken fence you can “engineer” (lol!). Don’t forget that you can always just stand slightly outside of the yellow encounter box on the map and murder everybody inside it however you choose and as loudly as you want, and as long as you leave one person alive or at least stealth kill them after entering the yellow box the game will reward you as though you were a total ghost assassin. Sometimes not though because it also flips a coin most of the time on the outcome, so YMMV.
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Nov 17, 2021 14:16
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Knuc U Kinte posted:What’s the problem with cyberpunks combat? Even a melee has a bunch of different approaches and builds that are much different from each other. maybe it's been a while but most perks don't work or have such a tiny bonus they don't really appreciably change things and at the end of the day if you spec for say, mantis blades, you are basically only a tiny bit better on the whole at mantis blades
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Nov 17, 2021 14:37
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I still think the complaints that the game is too linear is simply because most gamers don’t realize the game is presenting them with branching options. The game never really stops and puts up a line-bar timer ticking down to let you know THIS is a story decision. Almost every branching path in the game is presented like the option to save Paul Denton, to keep the DX analogies rolling. I think this makes people feel like the game is on rails because they never noticed they were being given a choice to begin with. These people will often further complain that the endings are all similar or the same because the ending state of the world is mostly set. I see that as narrative fatalism, however: a feature, not a bug. V can only change things for the people close to her, she has no agency to change the world. In this sense it is the anti-Deus Ex, because the one option you really have no choice in at the moment is the ending.
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Nov 17, 2021 15:15
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I actually kinda liked the fact that V wasn't changing the world. In pretty much every ending V is only really well-known amongst fixers and the like -- the closest the public is to knowing who they are is "oh that's Kerry Eurodyne's new friend? didn't she play guitar in the Samurai reunion one-off?"
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Nov 17, 2021 15:37
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History Comes Inside! posted:Yeah it’s called marketing
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Nov 17, 2021 16:05
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Fame Douglas posted:lmao, absolutely not. No chance at all. i think what sucks is i like the poundsmith world and alot of the over all moments of the game but most of the good gets lost in the drudgery. sorta reminds me a little of bioshock infinte where the first third was the best part and its peak was the hall of heroes and then it just kinda slowly coasts down and up and until it shits its brains out and crashes into a wall. Pattonesque posted:I actually kinda liked the fact that V wasn't changing the world. In pretty much every ending V is only really well-known amongst fixers and the like -- the closest the public is to knowing who they are is "oh that's Kerry Eurodyne's new friend? didn't she play guitar in the Samurai reunion one-off?" i will say i like that too. its why i sorta have a soft spot for dragon age 2. because its a small personal story where the most of your big feats are helping the shithole city stay afloat for another year and its more about helping friends and poo poo.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:15
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Did they ever allow you to pick up the knives you throw, which you could only do if you invested a perk point? Or did this never get addressed, and still remains in the game as a build that you literally throw your equipment and money away?
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Nov 17, 2021 16:39
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BrianWilly posted:Did they ever allow you to pick up the knives you throw, which you could only do if you invested a perk point? Or did this never get addressed, and still remains in the game as a build that you literally throw your equipment and money away? I think you always could but it was always buggy as poo poo.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:49
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Again, I don't know what the state of the game is nowadays, but I guarantee that you couldn't pick up thrown knives at launch.
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Nov 17, 2021 16:54
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Yeah you could never and still can't pick up knives, meaning after you've thrown it you have to go back to your inventory and equip a knife to one of your equipment slots. When I cared about gameplay mods like 6 months ago it was one I had in my load order, but I don't know if it's been updated for 1.3
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Nov 17, 2021 16:59
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Eraflure posted:Perks either don't do anything or just give you more damage, which is just about the most boring way to design perks. You quickly reach a point where said damage perks make it so you kill everything in one shot (or one SMG burst, or one punch). Add to this the extremely overpowered poo poo you can spec into like hacking, crafting, permanent slow motion, wallhack guns, second heart... And you can't make the game even remotely challenging unless you go out of your way to ignore larges chunks of the gameplay and play without perks/cyberware/legendary and unique loot. Good summary. Also add to that how gimped the aim is for opponents. With the level balancing mods you can make it so minimum enemy level is your level +3 which gives them a bunch of nice boosts that make combat take a bit longer and damage from them lethal enough you need to use cover a bit. But you soon realize they can't hit the wall next to you leave alone put you in real danger. I personally think the gimped aim was a deliberate design decision to keep the PC moving along while making it seem like they just kicked some serious rear end. But it drains away challenge even if you try hard to reinject it.
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Nov 17, 2021 17:40
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The conundrums of CP2077 that make it fascinating are that we can’t tell what’s accidental from intentional. I keep thinking of Bong Joon Ho commenting on an analysis of Parasite that talks about the symbolism of some random objects and he said bluntly “there was no point, nobody thought of it like that.” As such, we can’t tell how much was intentional in the pathing (nor anything else) for players to engage in missions and things we’re just bullshitting about besides the plainly obvious. While it’s true that there’s usually 3 routes or so what’s not consistent is the reward for it. For example, in one rescue mission I found a tunnel that would get me to my target and skip everything super fast, except I didn’t have enough tech attribute to remove a drat grate. The game acknowledged me finding it with dialogue but because I was too low it seemed kind of bullshit and a letdown. Some of these moments could have been enhanced with a failure state where V cusses and has to move on, but nothing like that happens.
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Nov 17, 2021 18:21
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Alchenar posted:Oh I didn't buy it until everyone agreed it was mostly fixed. I do remember everyone thinking that it was an absolute disaster for Valve because everyone thought their business model was going to be competing with Epic and Id and shopping the Source engine out to developers. Meanwhile steam was about to be released as the most annoying mandatory fail-to-download-update app ever.
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