Nessus posted:

I have had a moment of struggle with my own practice, paltry though it is. I had often been taking a nice five-ten minute sit while taking my blood pressure for long term monitoring, except that after a bad scare which was likely a mixture of anxiety and missing a single dose of the medicine I take, I have had real trouble getting back into a good mind state and bodily calm during these periods. I was able today to brute-force it a bit just by doing breathe in for four count, breathe out for four count, but I know that I had in a sense become dependent on these correlations.

What are your pro tips for getting a bit of sitting time in or do you just block out a chunk of time and make it a red line in your daily routine?

As for reading... this is dense stuff and the same chaotic mentality stuff that affected me from the above kept me from really digging in, but the thing that stood out to me from the four Rights that I got through in Heart was the analogy of watering a field and nurturing some seeds. It's a fruitful kind of analogy I thought, especially since it also handily explains why sometimes some things just don't have much appeal to some people or are easy to resist; their fields, so to speak, lack these seeds, or at least very many of them.

Nessus posted:

I have had a moment of struggle with my own practice, paltry though it is. I had often been taking a nice five-ten minute sit while taking my blood pressure for long term monitoring, except that after a bad scare which was likely a mixture of anxiety and missing a single dose of the medicine I take, I have had real trouble getting back into a good mind state and bodily calm during these periods. I was able today to brute-force it a bit just by doing breathe in for four count, breathe out for four count, but I know that I had in a sense become dependent on these correlations.

What are your pro tips for getting a bit of sitting time in or do you just block out a chunk of time and make it a red line in your daily routine?

As for reading... this is dense stuff and the same chaotic mentality stuff that affected me from the above kept me from really digging in, but the thing that stood out to me from the four Rights that I got through in Heart was the analogy of watering a field and nurturing some seeds. It's a fruitful kind of analogy I thought, especially since it also handily explains why sometimes some things just don't have much appeal to some people or are easy to resist; their fields, so to speak, lack these seeds, or at least very many of them.

ram dass in hell posted:

big fan of "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" for some Korean styled Zen teaching. Always a caveat when recommending Seung Sahn, he apparently had consenting relationships with several of his students and some people don't like that. I still got a lot out of the book, though. Actually, I got less than nothing out of it.

Cephas posted:

Thank you for the recommendation. I've been really appreciating this book. I didn't really understand how koan study could lead to greater awareness compared to things like sitting meditation, but now that I'm reading this book it's become perfectly clear to me. Just the act of reading and considering his dialogues is a form of meditation.

His idea about zen being a 360 degree circle with four points on it (dualistic thinking at 0, nondualistic thinking at 90, impermanence at 180, co-arising at 270, and full awakening at 360 again, basically) is really elucidating. I also was really surprised by his explanation of koans. He says something like, "in Chinese medicine, if you have a hot disease, you cure it with hot medicine. Dharma talks and koans exist because so many people having a disease of words and thoughts, so we make a words-and-thoughts cure."

KATZ!

for fucks sake posted:

The way I interpret this is that you can't have shade without light. The term doesn't have any meaning otherwise. So if there were no suffering there would be no opposite-of-suffering, there would just be some infinite neutral state of being.

Bilirubin posted:

Yeah I thought it was a more nuanced "true happiness", i.e., enlightenment, using his metaphor "you can't have a lotus without the mud".

quote:

These twenty-four hours are a precious gift, a gift we can only receive fully when we have opened the Third Door of Liberation, aimlessness. If we think we have twenty-four hours to achieve a certain purpose, today will become a means to attain an end. The moment of chopping wood and carrying water is the moment of happiness. We do not need to wait for these chores to be done to be happy. To have happiness in this moment is the spirit of aimlessness. Otherwise, we will run in circles for the rest of our life. We have everything we need to make the present moment the happiest in our life, even if we have a cold or a headache. We don’t have to wait until we get over our cold to be happy. Having a cold is a part of life.

quote:

Someone asked me, “Aren’t you worried about the state of the world?” I allowed myself to breathe and then I said, “What is most important is not to allow your anxiety about what happens in the world to fill your heart. If your heart is filled with anxiety, you will get sick, and you will not be able to help.” There are wars — big and small — in many places, and that can cause us to lose our peace. Anxiety is the illness of our age. We worry about ourselves, our family, our friends, our work, and the state of the world. If we allow worry to fill our hearts, sooner or later we will get sick. Yes, there is tremendous suffering all over the world, but knowing this need not paralyze us. If we practice mindful breathing, mindful walking, mindful sitting, and working in mindfulness, we try our best to help, and we can have peace in our heart. Worrying does not accomplish anything. Even if you worry twenty times more, it will not change the situation of the world. In fact, your anxiety will only make things worse. Even though things are not as we would like, we can still be content, knowing we are trying our best and will continue to do so. If we don’t know how to breathe, smile, and live every moment of our life deeply, we will never be able to help anyone. I am happy in the present moment. I do not ask for anything else. I do not expect any additional happiness or conditions that will bring about more happiness. The most important practice is aimlessness, not running after things, not grasping.

ram dass in hell posted:

Thank you for sharing your story, LuckyCat. FWIW in my meaningless estimation there is no contradiction there at all; the concept of emptiness is itself empty and those who insist in a belief in no-self are a little too nihilistic for my tastes. There is no-self, and the name of this no-self is the Self, or Ram or any of its other names. Or, there is the Self, and the name of this Self is no-self. Every seeming contradiction is just guiding us towards nonduality as its resolution, in my experience. If it seems like contradiction, I investigate "seems like".

Nessus posted:

My take is that there are individuals, and what we could call souls, on a pragmatic basis; even if the underlying truth is different. Fundamentally the point of practice is to reach towards liberation from suffering, so in a certain sense it is a moot point; if we walk the bodhisattva's path or practice diligently we will surely find out the more advanced answers in time, and there may be things which are genuinely hard or impossible for people in this situation of ours to fully comprehend.

ram dass in hell posted:

99% agree. there is no conceptual understanding based on words and ideas and beliefs that approaches experiential knowing; that's one reason why in many cases it's a million times better to chant a sutra than to read one. the point of practice is the actualization of the theoretical. the old cliche, "in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is". I think it's in the teachings of Huang Po, probably a lot of other places as well, the example of developing a complex understanding of chemistry and physics and the interactions of water molecules and thermodynamics and farenheit, celcius, and kelvin scales to ascertain the temperature of a glass of water - versus the act of taking a sip and knowing instantly for yourself whether it's cool or hot water.

As you said, comprehension is not the goal. You don't need to be an astronomer or nuclear physicist to look at a sunset and instantaneously experience awe and reverence at the natural beauty on display. My western academia mind had a very difficult time accepting this but eventually it became extremely funny to me how hard I once fought against the idea. Comprehension is not the goal, understanding is not the goal. As you said, it's liberation. Bodhidharma called it "the freedom that arises from seeing oneself". That's drinking from one's own cup of interiority and experiencing the pervasiveness of buddha-nature, not settling on a once-and-for-all conceptual argument for the existence of a soul.

Beowulfs_Ghost posted:

The self, no-self, self trip reminds me of the ox herding series from Zen. Near the end, after bring the ox home, there is 1 blank panel, then the next panel the world is back, then the last panel is returning to society.


The path doesn't stop at emptiness. That would just be nihilism. And that isn't much healthier than clinging to some notion of an eternal individual self.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

for all of zen's dumb esoteric, self-indulgent answering-a-riddle-with-a-riddle stuff, one of the more poignant zen stories that always sticks with me is just about a surgeon getting repeatedly turned away from a monastery that he kept trying to join because the abbot thought that his day job was more explicitly dharma than anything he might learn in a monastery

Nessus posted:

Did the surgeon later get into a car accident, from which he recovered at the cost of the loss of his fine dexterity, at which point he was admitted to the monastery? Or am I thinking of another story?

quote:

17. Stingy in Teaching
A young physician in Tokyo named Kusuda met a college friend who had been studying Zen. The young doctor asked
him what Zen was.

'I cannot tell you what it is,' the friend replied, 'but one thing is certain. If you understand Zen, you will not be afraid to
die.'

That's fine: said Kusuda. “I will try it. Where can I find a teacher?'

'Go to the master Nan-in,' the friend told him.

So Kusuda went to call on Nan-in. He carried a dagger nine and a half inches long to determine whether or not the
teacher himself was afraid to die.

When Nan-in saw Kusuda he exclaimed: 'Hello, friend. How are you? We haven't seen each other for a long time!'

This perplexed Kusuda, who replied: 'We have never met before.'

‘That’s right,' answered Nan-in. I mistook you for another physician who is receiving instruction here.'

With such a beginning, Kusuda lost his chance to test the master, so reluctantly be asked if he might receive Zen
instruction.

Nan-in said: 'Zen is not a difficult task. If you are a physician, treat your patients with kindness. That is Zen.'

Kusuda visited Nan-in three times. Each time Nan-in told him the same thing.' A physician should not waste time around
here. Go home and take care of your patients.'

It was not yet clear to Kusuda how such teaching could remove the fear of death. So on his fourth visit he complained:
'My friend told me when one learns Zen one loses his fear of death. Each time I come here all you tell me is to take care
of my patients. I know that much. If that is your so-called Zen, I am not going to visit you any more.'

Nan-in smiled and patted the doctor. ‘I have been too strict with you. Let me give you a koan.' He presented Kusuda with
Joshu’s Mu to work over, which is the first mind-enlightening problem in the book called The Gateless Gate.

Kusuda pondered this problem of Mu (No-thing) for two years. At length he thought he had reached certainty of mind.
But his teacher commented: "You are not in yet.'

Kusuda continued in concentration for another year and a half. His mind became placid. Problems dissolved. No-thing
became the truth. He served his patients well and, without even knowing it, he was free from concern over life and death.

Then when he visited Nan-in his old teacher just smiled.

quote:

One afternoon a student said "Roshi, I don't really understand what's going on. I mean, we sit in zazen and we gassho to each other and everything, and Felicia got enlightened when the bottom fell out of her water-bucket, and Todd got enlightened when you popped him one with your staff, and people work on koans and get enlightened, but I've been doing this for two years now, and the koans don't make any sense, and I don't feel enlightened at all! Can you just tell me what's going on?"

"Well you see," Roshi replied, "for most people, and especially for most educated people like you and I, what we perceive and experience is heavily mediated, through language and concepts that are deeply ingrained in our ways of thinking and feeling. Our objective here is to induce in ourselves and in each other a psychological state that involves the unmediated experience of the world, because we believe that that state has certain desirable properties. It's impossible in general to reach that state through any particular form or method, since forms and methods are themselves examples of the mediators that we are trying to avoid. So we employ a variety of ad hoc means, some linguistic like koans and some non-linguistic like zazen, in hopes that for any given student one or more of our methods will, in whatever way, engender the condition of non-mediated experience that is our goal. And since even thinking in terms of mediators and goals tends to reinforce our undesirable dependency on concepts, we actively discourage exactly this kind of analytical discourse."

And the student was enlightened.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

for all of zen's dumb esoteric, self-indulgent answering-a-riddle-with-a-riddle stuff, one of the more poignant zen stories that always sticks with me is just about a surgeon getting repeatedly turned away from a monastery that he kept trying to join because the abbot thought that his day job was more explicitly dharma than anything he might learn in a monastery

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

Zen rules.

Shadow Pussy Wanter posted:

echinopsis posted:

is this end state the teacher talking about a non-dual experience?

Paramemetic posted:

Also, because it often comes up, there is a general consensus across all schools that some people should not meditate. This has become a problem since the West has embraced mindfulness as the magic bullet to solve the problem of everyone being miserable under capitalism. People with very bad anxiety and depression should generally not meditate. Meditation involves engaging with your mind very directly, and people with anxiety and depression can often end up reinforcing those depression thoughts or anxiety thoughts rather than ameliorating them. Some people can meditate mindfully and recognize that their depression or anxiety has no basis and that those thoughts are just transient things, but usually only people who have good karma for meditation (we'd say from past lives of practice, but who cares about that) can meditate away a depression. Most people end up just seeing the depression thoughts and habituating them more strongly because they get very distracted by the self-loathing and can't quite get to the root of the thought, or hell, some will even get worse ("I can't believe I can't see the nature of my mind! I'm so loving stupid and useless).

So don't meditate if you have a depression unless you have a good teacher who can tell you when to stop. For Tibetan Buddhists if there is major discouragement like that we generally recommend doing purification practices and focusing on ritual-y stuff rather than doing a lot of meditation if you are prone to those kinds of things; focusing on concrete stuff and not spending so much time "in one's head."

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

That's interesting. Especially given that people who have anxiety and depression would, I think, stand to gain the most from meditation.

I don't know if I "officially" suffer from anxiety or depression, but I'm about to start therapy which will hopefully give me a better idea. I do have some of the symptoms for sure though. Nevertheless I'd like to try meditation. What's the best way to get started? I've tried "meditating" as I understand it, meaning "clearing my mind" and focusing on breathing and it's basically impossible. I'm too easily distracted which is of course the problem to begin with.

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

That's interesting. Especially given that people who have anxiety and depression would, I think, stand to gain the most from meditation.

I don't know if I "officially" suffer from anxiety or depression, but I'm about to start therapy which will hopefully give me a better idea. I do have some of the symptoms for sure though. Nevertheless I'd like to try meditation. What's the best way to get started? I've tried "meditating" as I understand it, meaning "clearing my mind" and focusing on breathing and it's basically impossible. I'm too easily distracted which is of course the problem to begin with.

Ramrod Hotshot posted:

I've tried "meditating" as I understand it, meaning "clearing my mind" and focusing on breathing and it's basically impossible. I'm too easily distracted which is of course the problem to begin with.

BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:

try setting a short and simple "return to meditation" phrase. if you notice your mind wandering do your mental bell chime, fix your posture, start over. doesn't matter if it's only a second or not its not a big deal. "Return!" take a breath, start again. Over time this might also help you learn to recognize your thoughts and how to interrupt streams of thought which is a helpful skill if you're battling depression and anxiety.