Tea Party Crasher posted:

Agreed. I feel like this movie centered a lot of it's drama around the kids/family which was an issue for me because I didn't care about any of them. Their relationship with Jake seemed one note, with him just non-stop lecturing them for getting themselves in danger. And then what do they do next? Get themselves in danger and get yelled at. And the cycle just repeats until one of the sons dies.

And yeah, Spider had me cringing a couple of times. Also why the gently caress did he save the colonel from drowning, not only is that pointless franchise wise because he can just be brought back to life anyway, but it just doesn't seem in character what we see of Spider. He seems too ride or die for the Na'Vi to play lifeguard for a war criminal that is a clone of his dad.

I did laugh at that hostage exchange tho. "We're not even the same species."

Bugblatter posted:

And they showed shamanism as a more effective cure than scientific analysis, in an era where goofy "holistic" healing is gaining traction and vaccines are viewed with skepticism. You get what he's complaining about.

SadisTech posted:

Spider literally had Neytiri ready to slit his throat and Quarritch giving up the confrontation to save his life minutes before he saved Quarritch from drowning, and he was on the verge of not doing so.

teagone posted:

Well I learned something new about TWOW's production from this interview (timestamped 6m30s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOaCG2r47-A&t=390s

Jim and his crew had fully functional mockups of the sea creatures built for the actors to interact with that could do all the flying, diving, hydrobatics and poo poo IN THE WATER.



I want to see that 4-jet skimwing mockup in a behind-the-scenes featurette, lmao.

Bugblatter posted:

And they showed shamanism as a more effective cure than scientific analysis, in an era where goofy "holistic" healing is gaining traction and vaccines are viewed with skepticism. You get what he's complaining about.

Bedshaped posted:

I wasn't comparing it to covid. I was highlighting one example of where pseudoscience killed a lot of people in a movie that seems to be endorsing pseudoscience.

stratdax posted:

There's a difference between not liking your dad and making the conscious, active decision to be the one to let your dad die while you watch. Especially when you're a confused orphan with no real home.

CameronisGod posted:

This movie does what Hollywood has been actively trying not to do (or been too much of a coward to do) over the past 10-15 years.

I don't think I've seen a big american blockbuster that is this anti-colonialist, this anti-empire, this pro animal-rights, in a long time. Maybe since the last Avatar movie honestly.

The thing I love most about the film is how unabashingly unsubtle it is about all this. (Although I would argue for most audiences it still could be quite a bit to subtle).

My theory and approach to modern film, especially blockbusters, is that the American and general movie going public the world over are utter loving morons, and unable to discertain or understand even the most basic forms of subtleness. My favorite director is Frank Capra, and I believe films need to be about as unsubtle and straightforward in their morality and takes on the world as his films to even have half a chance of being understood by the great majority of the human population. Films are a weapon of propaganda and control. This is why I very much despise films such as The Wolf of Wall Street, a film that ends up glorifying capitalism and being embraced and celebrated by the same wall street brokers who have destroyed the lives of millions as occured in real life. Film must be much more than a representation of reality, it must speak power to what is right and wrong.

We've been sitting throught 10-12 years of what amounts as to a complete onslaught against humanity and nature by the film industry in terms of the themes and concepts in movies. The largest and biggest selling franchise in history has slogged along with muddled "grey" moralistic takes, where the main "heroes" aren't willing to make a single sacrifice to do any kind of good, and the biggest "villain" is portrayed essentially as a environmentalist nutjob. All these high end Disney blockbuster movies like Infinity War, Endgame, Black Panther, Black Panther 2, Kingsmen, The Force Awakens, have all leaned to the side of "decorum" politics; where anyone who is willing to use violence or retaliation to very bad people must be as equally bad as those bad people. That violence or force as a response to an act of force is somehow evil. Recent films like Top Gun Maverick, while entertaining, ultimately fail to do any kind of moral analysis of the core political issues at play, and instead rely on Military propaganda and blatant jingoism to promote their image.

I've honestly not gone happily to any movies over the past 4 years because of just how bad this trend has gotten in cinema. I've seen maybe 3 or 4 movies in that time period.

Avatar 2 makes me remember what movies used to be about. It makes me happy to watch movies again. It makes me excited that maybe our species is finally learning something and that there are good people willing to take stands that are worth being made. It is a shining jewel along with a few other recent films (say The Planet of the Apes Trilogy) in terms of themes that should be represented in cinema.

I'll be going to see this movie again. And it's really the first time I've said that about a film in probably 11 years or so, really since the last Avatar film.

One thing I'll note, the critics that criticize this movie; a lot of them are doing so in bad faith. The reality is they display their own bias and the putrid filth that lies at the heart of American culture. When I see takes like "Though a technical spectatcle, Cameron has evolved his stortytelling from "Save the Rainforest" to "Save the Whales." I see not a criticism of a movie, but a reflection of who that viewer is as a person. That they are unable to connect with or take anything at face value. That they are unable to feel or think without those smirks, and unauthentic jokes. Like every single Marvel film. Like most cinema now in America today. Nothing can be authentic. Everyone must be laughting at what is going on. They would be happy in Avatar if after the World Tree burned down he quipped "Yeah...that happened." This is what our society, our culture, our artforms have all been reduced to. The concept that making a fantasy movie about saving sentient whales is somehow a net-negative.

One of the most amazing things I think in the film and I really noticed was how heavily the designs of the home bases that the jungle was destroyed for matched modern American cities. They didn't model them after compact, european, walkable cities. Mind you in the reality of historical colonialism the colonial cities were small, compact, and european style. They modeled them after our massive car and energy based cities. Complete with massive highways running down the center of them, and large vehicles moving around. I can't think this isn't a coincidence and that Cameron is making a statement about how horrible our urban infrastructure is. The representation of the humans of earth in this movie as in Avatar 1, continue to be uniquely American. Despite Earth being a entire planet with thousands of different cultures and types of people. He's clearly saying something there too undoubtedly.

Overall this movie for me is a high 9 out of 10. Just an amazing feat of a film. I did not expect it to be this good, this immersive, this timely, or as good as it was. Kudos.

The REAL Goobusters posted:

So you did compare to covid

Like I’m sorry dude but what exactly are you talking about. The character has a epileptic attack after connecting to the spirit tree. No one can do anything, the humans come in with the tech to see if there is anything they can do and say they can’t do anything other than to prevent her from connecting again. The shamanism thing was a culture tribal thing or whatever that Neytiri requested. It didn’t do anything either. It’s like when you get a priest to show up when someone is about to die or whatever.

And you’re comparing it to the 2020 covid 19 pandemic where people were explicitly anti vax and tried to seek other solutions (ivermectin, etc).

I’m sorry but it’s not the same. Like at all.

euphronius posted:

The only person that says she has epilepsy is the earth doctor using earth medicine . And if I remember the movie right it was based on not anything else fitting what they were seeing

The big problem is of course kiri isn’t human !!!

SadisTech posted:

This film is about high impact brightly coloured insanely detailed stuff hitting you in your brain to an extent that leaves it almost punch drunk by the end. There are some big emotional beats and some exciting action scenes and it's just basically about awesome spectacular poo poo. Would it be nice to have that and a deep, well told satisfying story? Oh hell yes. Am I going to disparage this experience because it doesn't do that? No, fkn go and see this poo poo on the big screen in 3D and get your mind blown.

CameronisGod posted:

I don't think I've seen a big american blockbuster that is this anti-colonialist, this anti-empire, this pro animal-rights, in a long time. Maybe since the last Avatar movie honestly.

The thing I love most about the film is how unabashingly unsubtle it is about all this.

CameronisGod posted:

This movie does what Hollywood has been actively trying not to do (or been too much of a coward to do) over the past 10-15 years.

I don't think I've seen a big american blockbuster that is this anti-colonialist, this anti-empire, this pro animal-rights, in a long time. Maybe since the last Avatar movie honestly.

The thing I love most about the film is how unabashingly unsubtle it is about all this. (Although I would argue for most audiences it still could be quite a bit to subtle).

Deadly Ham Sandwich transcribing a Youtube interview posted:

James Cameron: "Well if you think about it, you know we were worried going into Avatar about the environmental themes that that almost went into a kind of spiritual level to a very deep level in that film would actually hurt the film. You know it was kind of I think one of somebody at Fox who shall remain unnamed, not there now, said 'is there any way to reduce this New Age, tree-hugging, hippy crap?'. So there was definitely a concern on everyone's part if we weren't delivering entertainment first and the thematic message second we were going to get burned. We were gonna spend a lot of money and and and have a flop. What I think we found was actually quite the opposite. That the film succeeded at such a high level, you can't say it was succeeding in spite of itself. It had to been succeeding because of all of the elements of it were all essentially sort of firing on all eight cylinders.

quote:

Cameron said the exec approached him with a "stricken cancer-diagnosis expression" after an early screening of the original movie over its two-hour, 42-minute length.

"I said something I've never said to anybody else in the business," Cameron recounted, telling him: " 'I think this movie is going to make all the f—ing money. And when it does, it's going to be too late for you to love the film. The time for you to love the movie is today.' "

He continued, " 'So I'm not asking you to say something that you don't feel, but just know that I will always know that no matter how complimentary you are about the movie in the future when it makes all the money'—and that's exactly what I said, in caps, ALL THE MONEY, not some of the money, all the f—ing money. I said, 'You can't come back to me and compliment the film or chum along and say, "Look what we did together."' You won't be able to do that.' "

"At that point, that particular studio executive flipped out and went bug s— on me. And I told him to get the f— out of my office. And that's where it was left," Cameron said.

Tea Party Crasher posted:

How are the humans losing when at the start of the movie the retro burn from their rockets is enough to decimate vast swaths of forest. The humans obviously don't give a gently caress about ruining the environment so why act precious and engage in boots on the ground warfare.

CameronisGod posted:

This movie does what Hollywood has been actively trying not to do (or been too much of a coward to do) over the past 10-15 years.

I don't think I've seen a big american blockbuster that is this anti-colonialist, this anti-empire, this pro animal-rights, in a long time. Maybe since the last Avatar movie honestly.

The thing I love most about the film is how unabashingly unsubtle it is about all this. (Although I would argue for most audiences it still could be quite a bit to subtle).

My theory and approach to modern film, especially blockbusters, is that the American and general movie going public the world over are utter loving morons, and unable to discertain or understand even the most basic forms of subtleness. My favorite director is Frank Capra, and I believe films need to be about as unsubtle and straightforward in their morality and takes on the world as his films to even have half a chance of being understood by the great majority of the human population. Films are a weapon of propaganda and control.

Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

#1. The humans want Pandora because of the environment. They don't want to live on Mars, in space ships, or asteroids or whatever. They specifically want to leave the dying Earth and colonize Pandora. An orbital bombardment would stop the Na'vi but also destroy everything they want, like the livable planet and immortality juice whales. Burning a whole forest to establish a beach head is small in the grand scale of an entire moon.

#2. Earth is very far away. Each probably bullet costs $100 compared to $1 if it was fired on Earth. Earth's environment is dying and Avatar 1 mentions resource wars. The colonization effort doesn't have infinite resources and money. They are very limited.

Arglebargle III posted:

It would actually be cheaper to fix global warming but hey we didn't get here by making rational decisions.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Hollywood produces anti-imperial films, anti-colonial films, and pro-animal rights films all the time. Just going by some fairly recent sci-fi “war” movies, Avatar 2 is nowhere near as politically radical as Battle: Los Angeles, Captive State, Elysium, the Planet Of The Apes prequel trilogy, BVS/Man Of Steel or even Rogue One...

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Like, let’s be really clear here. Nobody likes whaling. There aren’t any pro-whaling movies. What is rare is to show industrialized production. If you set aside the fact that the whale is “a composer!!!”,

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

the sequence is like something out of a Soviet educational film: proletarians at their machines, each doing their work with practiced coordination. In the pseudo-opposition between the ‘primitive’ communism of the fishermen and the whale genocide, what’s lost is the possibility of industrial-scale fishing without capitalism.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

There’s like zero emphasis on where all those helicopters are coming from. Are they all built by automated spider-robots, with materials mined by mining robots? If so, how are people on Earth paying for the space-drugs? Unemployment must be rampant, but human work is certainly being done somewhere, offscreen, invisible.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Y’see, the reason we have a bazillion “anti-imperialist” Marvel movies (e.g. The Avengers) is that there’s no inherent contradiction between anti-imperialism and capitalism. The entire goal of liberals is to assimilate people into the capitalist order “nonviolently” while pursuing the “sustainable” solutions to the symptoms of systemic injustice (ethically-sourced coffee beans or whatever). Avatar 2 does nothing to challenge that.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

There’s like zero emphasis on where all those helicopters are coming from. Are they all built by automated spider-robots, with materials mined by mining robots? If so, how are people on Earth paying for the space-drugs? Unemployment must be rampant, but human work is certainly being done somewhere, offscreen, invisible.

Crespolini posted:

It might well be rampant, and the drugs are being sold to the upper classes who own the robots?

euphronius posted:

The only person that says she has epilepsy is the earth doctor using earth medicine . And if I remember the movie right it was based on not anything else fitting what they were seeing

The big problem is of course kiri isn’t human !!!

MLSM posted:

MLSM posted:

Polo-Rican posted:

Just popping in to say that you absolutely must watch RRR if you haven't already. when it comes to over-the-top anti-colonialist action spectacles, it's hard to imagine a film more effective than RRR

You're absolutely right about american blockbusters though. Nowadays, all passion and emotion is filtered through a self-aware ironic lens. A lot of this is due to the marvel house style, where characters are only allowed to smirk and quip (unless they're mourning a death)

Tea Party Crasher posted:

Seconding the RRR recommendations. If you love the anti-colonization themes of Avatar, you are guaranteed to love RRR.

fez_machine posted:

I mean if you want to replace living British people with dead British people then RRR is great

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

What you’re expressing here is that you are an inexperienced misanthrope.

Hollywood produces anti-imperial films, anti-colonial films, and pro-animal rights films all the time. Just going by some fairly recent sci-fi “war” movies, Avatar 2 is nowhere near as politically radical as Battle: Los Angeles, Captive State, Elysium, the Planet Of The Apes prequel trilogy, BVS/Man Of Steel or even Rogue One...

Like, let’s be really clear here. Nobody likes whaling. There aren’t any pro-whaling movies. What is rare is to show industrialized production. If you set aside the fact that the whale is “a composer!!!”, the sequence is like something out of a Soviet educational film: proletarians at their machines, each doing their work with practiced coordination. In the pseudo-opposition between the ‘primitive’ communism of the fishermen and the whale genocide, what’s lost is the possibility of industrial-scale fishing without capitalism.

There’s like zero emphasis on where all those helicopters are coming from. Are they all built by automated spider-robots, with materials mined by mining robots? If so, how are people on Earth paying for the space-drugs? Unemployment must be rampant, but human work is certainly being done somewhere, offscreen, invisible.

Y’see, the reason we have a bazillion “anti-imperialist” Marvel movies (e.g. The Avengers) is that there’s no inherent contradiction between anti-imperialism and capitalism. The entire goal of liberals is to assimilate people into the capitalist order “nonviolently” while pursuing the “sustainable” solutions to the symptoms of systemic injustice (ethically-sourced coffee beans or whatever). Avatar 2 does nothing to challenge that.

pospysyl posted:

Something this post made me realize: so much more time is spent describing the whalers' mode of production than the Na'vi's. You would think that the premise of the middle section of the movie - Jake Sully's family learns the Way of Water so to speak - would involve them learning how to fish, harvest seaweed, or do whatever this ocean village needs to do to survive, but that doesn't really happen. We get a single shot of a Na'vi fisher casting a net (it's a good thing those fish don't have the ability to compose songs) and the kids instead learn how to dive and befriend animal companions. Despite the king's warning to not be useless, nobody learns a single practical skill. In contrast, you get this really meticulous breakdown of every step in the whaling process, and there's so much love and attention to designing the various mechs and techniques those whalers use.

If there is an anti-capitalist thrust to all this, it's a very unconfident and shaky one. There's a reluctance to show too much of the sea people's economy, perhaps for fear that this would ethically implicate them in some way. It's a notable departure from the first Avatar, which in my recollection spent a great deal of time developing how the forest people society worked. Instead, the sea people are treated as almost childlike, without a care or want in the world other than to hang out with whales.