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My wife and I moved out of a Providence, Rhode Island apartment on 8/13 and are having problems getting our security deposit. We are currently living in Toronto and our old landlord has stopped returning all calls, texts, and emails. I have the receipt from the security deposit and did a little research and found this from the Rhode Island Tenant-Landlord Handbook:quote:A landlord can take a security deposit from a tenant at the beginning of a new rental term but it It has been over 20 days and we have complied with all the tenant requirements listed. My question is, what is our recourse? We are living in Canada so pursuing legal action seems difficult but possibly an effective scare tactic? Any help or advice would be appreciated.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:36
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Just give up? The odds of you getting it back without lawyering up are pretty much nil. I figure there's a 50/50 chance of ever seeing a security deposit come back. Most landlords nickel and dime you to death on petty charges. In my case I got hit because of water damage caused by my upstairs neighbor not knowing how to plug in a washer. I could have fought it sure, but by the time I got done pissing away my time it would come out to nothing anyways.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:17
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How bad was the damage and how much of the deposit did the landlord keep? Small Claims Court is probably your next step. You pay ~$50 to file, get a court date, serve the landlord, and wait. Small Claims is a dice roll. You might get a judge who would not be concerned about the 20 days, only about the damage done, and you might get a judge who is or isn't concerned about a written list of deductions, amounts charged, labor to fix the damages, etc, etc, etc.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:57
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Salvor_Hardin posted:My wife and I moved out of a Providence, Rhode Island apartment on 8/13 and are having problems getting our security deposit. We are currently living in Toronto and our old landlord has stopped returning all calls, texts, and emails. I have the receipt from the security deposit and did a little research and found this from the Rhode Island Tenant-Landlord Handbook: most states require an itemized receipt of why your security deposit was withheld. just sue him in small claims court, 90% of the time these scummy landlords have been sued many many times regarding these issues
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Sep 8, 2014 19:00
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Yeah we did not receive any notice of damages and shouldn't because we left the place fairly pristine. Small claims does seem to be the next step but it feels so lovely because aside from this incident we got along great and he was a good landlord. Edit: Also regarding small claims court, it would be difficult considering we are living in Toronto now but maybe just the threat is enough.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:53
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Maybe you should have resolved all this before you left the state/country.
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Sep 8, 2014 22:46
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We left the day we moved out of the apartment. The original plan was that the landlord would meet us at the apartment after the movers left but he never showed.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:24
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Salvor_Hardin posted:We left the day we moved out of the apartment. The original plan was that the landlord would meet us at the apartment after the movers left but he never showed. Well good luck then, sounds like he doesn't want to return your deposit. Either small claims or threaten his family I guess
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Sep 8, 2014 23:41
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Send your landlord a formal Letter of Demand of Payment. Google will help you find a form letter. State the details of your situation, your knowledge of state laws regarding return of deposits and allowable penalties for noncompliance, and your intention to sue for 2x the deposit in XXX jurisdiction if the deposit in full is not returned by Y/Y/YYYY date. Money judgments are public record, damage your credit for 7 years, and usually collect interest. Hopefully he takes you seriously enough to return yours. How much was your deposit, equal to one month's rent? Is it worth your time traveling to Providence on the date of the hearing to win a judgment? Then you have the burden of collecting on that judgment if your landlord doesn't willingly pay. You can place liens on real property he owns, but that doesn't pay out until he tries to sell them. It can get more complicated if the real property is co-owned with a spouse. You probably could pay to organize a sheriff sale or equivalent in your jurisdiction with the hope of recouping the sale fees and your judgment. Some jurisdictions don't allow you to garnish wages. Some exempt an amount of assets and types of physical property like a primary car, household furnishings, etc. You'll likely win the judgment even if landlord shows up with a list of damages. Maybe even the double deposit penalty allowed. How to collect a money judgment in your former state and local jurisdictions should be your concern before suing. goku chewbacca fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 23:59
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Thanks for that information, I'll do that. And yes, the deposit is for one month's rent or $1350. I really hope it doesn't come down to all that though, hopefully a voiced legal threat will be sufficient.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:39
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Can you prove you provided your landlord with a forwarding address? We sued our rental company (MN) when they didn't return our full deposit or send us an itemized repair list within the allowed time, like 30 days. The judge mainly focused on if we fulfilled our address notification obligation and once I proved that*, the judge ruled in our favor. 2x deposit plus fees plus interest. *On our last day of our lease, I brought a memo with all of our new contact information to the rental office and had the office admin sign and date it, and take a copy for their file, giving me the original. The "excuse me while I whip this out" moment in court was so goddamned sweet.
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Sep 9, 2014 05:18
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In most states (?) if you don't give a forwarding address, the landlord can mail it to your last known address (the apartment) and if you forwarded your mail, it will forward to you. The onus of providing your new address to the landlord and having proof of that is new to me - I've never heard of it.
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Sep 9, 2014 05:52
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photomikey posted:In most states (?) if you don't give a forwarding address, the landlord can mail it to your last known address (the apartment) and if you forwarded your mail, it will forward to you. The onus of providing your new address to the landlord and having proof of that is new to me - I've never heard of it. Most states it's less a matter of onus and more a CYOA in a he-said-she-said type situation, and "Gee your honor, I just had no way of getting a hold of them I WANTED to send it, but didn't know where," is an easy excuse, something like that double-copied memo idea gets rid of. A great idea and I'll do it the next time I move since I got screwed over by a landlord going off the radar a few years ago a little after our move.
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Sep 9, 2014 09:24
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Nadine Hauklund posted:Can you prove you provided your landlord with a forwarding address? We sued our rental company (MN) when they didn't return our full deposit or send us an itemized repair list within the allowed time, like 30 days. The judge mainly focused on if we fulfilled our address notification obligation and once I proved that*, the judge ruled in our favor. 2x deposit plus fees plus interest. I sent an email with my new Canadian address and my parents' USA address if international mail was too onerous. I assume that dated email would be sufficient evidence?
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Sep 9, 2014 14:22
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For someone who anticipates such issues with their landlord, is it wise to just not pay your last months rent and let them keep the security?
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Sep 9, 2014 14:50
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I didn't anticipate any issues at all. He has always been a great landlord so this is completely out of the blue. Everything I did was basic tenant obligations.
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Sep 9, 2014 14:53
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n4 posted:For someone who anticipates such issues with their landlord, is it wise to just not pay your last months rent and let them keep the security? no, because in that case they will just bill you directly for any 'damages' you actually caused/they make up. you have way more legal leverage if you pay every month's rent.
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Sep 9, 2014 14:54
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I had this happen with the last apartment I moved out of, thought slightly different situation. I'm in California, and my previous landlord tried to enforce a $300 "cleaning fee" which was in the lease agreement as part of the security deposit, i.e. that $300 would automatically be withheld when I moved out to pay for cleaning. This is apparently common but not legal in California, they are supposed to provide itemized receipts/invoices for any work or repairs done, they can't just slap you with a generic fee for "cleaning" or keep your deposit without providing documentation of what they used it to pay for. Anyway, write a Demand of Payment letter and include copies of your documents and references to the relevant sections of state law. They should be easy to find by googling housing or tenant laws etc. I got my money back within about a week, I'd bet a letter will suffice. Hopefully you don't actually have to go to court, but for that much money it might be worth the trip.
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Sep 9, 2014 15:06
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this_is_hard posted:no, because in that case they will just bill you directly for any 'damages' you actually caused/they make up. you have way more legal leverage if you pay every month's rent. Or, in landlord friendly states, they'll just evict you before the last month is up (some states allow evictions to take <30 days, and even if not, you'll have an eviction proceeding on your record), keep your deposit, and bill you for legal fees/damages (real or imagined).
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Sep 9, 2014 15:24
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Coolness Averted posted:Most states it's less a matter of onus and more a CYOA in a he-said-she-said type situation, and "Gee your honor, I just had no way of getting a hold of them I WANTED to send it, but didn't know where," is an easy excuse, something like that double-copied memo idea gets rid of. When you present the double-copy memo thing to your landlord, don't be surprised if they don't sign it. (I'm a landlord; I wouldn't sign it.) I don't play ball with people who like to drum up legal drama where there is none. You know what is in it for your landlord if they sign? Potential legal drama. You know what happens to your landlord if they refuse to sign it? Absolutely nothing. n4 posted:For someone who anticipates such issues with their landlord, is it wise to just not pay your last months rent and let them keep the security? Your landlord knows more about eviction than you do.
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Sep 9, 2014 22:00
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photomikey posted:No judge in America would buy that. you sound like a stand up guy. the only 'drummed up legal drama' in this case is the fact that, surprise surprise, a landlord is flagrantly breaking the law.
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Sep 9, 2014 22:05
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No, the landlord, when you bring him a form to sign regarding your security deposit, is not "flagrantly" breaking the law, he is operating a business.this_is_hard posted:you sound like a stand up guy. photomikey fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 22:12
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photomikey posted:No, the landlord, when you bring him a form to sign regarding your security deposit, is not "flagrantly" breaking the law, he is operating a business. Conversely: a landlord refusing to sign a simple form acknowledging that you left them a forwarding address is exactly the kind of bullshit landlords have historically and anecdotally been notorious for doing. No one is saying you need a 'made-up form' to get your security deposit back. They're saying that you should get receipts of literally every interaction you have with landlords because they're typically the scum of the earth.
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Sep 9, 2014 23:42
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In business and money matters everyone tries to take advantage of everyone if they can. Only thing you can do is always make sure your rear end is covered. End of story.
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Sep 9, 2014 23:57
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this_is_hard posted:you should get receipts of literally every interaction you have with landlords because they're typically the scum of the earth. You must be a breath of fresh air to interact with in the real world. You certainly are online. photomikey fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 03:33
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this_is_hard posted:No one is saying you need a 'made-up form' to get your security deposit back. They're saying that you should get receipts of literally every interaction you have with landlords because they're typically the scum of the earth. Aaaaaaand that's why you can only find lovely landlords, because you're a lovely, difficult tenant. I'm not a landlord, but I don't sign non standard legal stuff without having a professional read it first. Lawyers are expensive, if you come up to me with some bullshit paper I'm not required to sign, I'm not gonna sign it and that's gonna be that. Just send a drat email next time.
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Sep 11, 2014 05:12
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Salvor_Hardin posted:Thanks for that information, I'll do that. And yes, the deposit is for one month's rent or $1350. I really hope it doesn't come down to all that though, hopefully a voiced legal threat will be sufficient. From a purely practical standpoint when it comes to LL/Tenant matters the simple net is that the person holding the money is in the driver's seat, and tends to win by default because the amounts are so small that they're not worth pursuing. Landlords routinely withhold security deposits. It's just part of the game. I always tell folks to be honest with themselves and think about any damage they've caused and what it will cost to repair, and then try to negotiate amicably to get at least part of their deposit back. Coming out swinging just annoys LLs, and makes them dig in. I can pretty much guarantee that you won't get all of your deposit back, but a friendly approach works best when you're dealing with someone who's in the driver's seat and knows it. Given your location, small claims is probably a waste of time unless there's a law on the RI books permitting appearance by phone, Skype, whatever, which would be unusual. Your best bet is to learn from this and try to negotiate your next lease to have the security deposit placed in escrow rather than paid to the LL. There's a good chance the LL will laugh in your face, but if it works you have a bit more truck when the lease is over. Edit: typo Lagrange fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 11, 2014 13:34
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FrozenVent posted:Aaaaaaand that's why you can only find lovely landlords, because you're a lovely, difficult tenant. Nah, my landlord isn't too bad actually. If you've ever rented in an ultra competitive renting market and don't do basic CYOA stuff you're prob an idiot though, hth. Asking for a receipt or a dated copy of forms/notices you give your landlord is not 'bullshit papers.' It's really no different than sending something in certified mail, hth.
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Sep 11, 2014 14:04
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photomikey posted:I post 3 day notice and start eviction on the 6th. I'm so glad that I live in a city where doing poo poo like this is illegal.
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Sep 11, 2014 16:51
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photomikey posted:You must be a breath of fresh air to interact with in the real world. You certainly are online. quote:I post 3 day notice and start eviction on the 6th. Hey, at least I'm not a landlord!
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Sep 11, 2014 17:17
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OP - I ran into a similar issue with my landlord. Dude was a total scumbag. Had to argue left and right with him to fix anything in the apartment. We literally got into screaming matches before he would fix poo poo. And not just little things, I'm talking things like the roof leaking. Just to give you an idea of the character of this douche. At least in Florida, the entire small claims court process was going to be a bitch and a half. First, you need to pay money just to file a case. For me, it would have cost $80. But the fees are a sliding scale. For the amount you'd be suing for, you're looking at $175 just to get the ball rolling! Then, at least in Florida, you need to either get a process server to slap the landlord with a notice. Or, take time from your busy day to send the notice via certified mail (mail is not an option if you're serving someone out of state). I have no clue what a process server charges, so let's say your landlord was in the same state. Well, by the time you drive to the post office, pay to mail everything certified, first class, etc., you're already looking at over $200. Then, let's factor in things like lawyer costs (if you do get a lawyer), lost wages from taking time off work, gas to get to the courthouse and back and so on and so forth. For me, the cost to reclaim my security deposit was not going to be worth the time and expense. I would guesstimate that this landlord knew all of that. The money owed was around what it would have cost to take the rear end in a top hat to court. It would have been a moral victory, not a monetary one. It sucks, but I think you're better off just letting it go and hoping that he gets his one day.
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Sep 11, 2014 17:30
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Dolemite posted:OP - I ran into a similar issue with my landlord. Dude was a total scumbag. Had to argue left and right with him to fix anything in the apartment. We literally got into screaming matches before he would fix poo poo. And not just little things, I'm talking things like the roof leaking. Just to give you an idea of the character of this douche. Yeah, I don't think there is any chance I would actually follow through with a lawsuit or anything. Thanks everyone for the input, I'll just to one more hail mary in that Letter of Demand of Payment then walk away.
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Sep 11, 2014 19:56
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here's a meme about Phoenix Wright
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Sep 11, 2014 20:44
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Rosalind posted:I'm so glad that I live in a city where doing poo poo like this is illegal. Eviction for non-payment of rent is legal in every jurisdiction I know of. Where are you that it's not? The notice period varies, but it's typically 3-14 days. In almost any case, the landlord can at least file the eviction claim within the month. Salvor_Hardin posted:Yeah, I don't think there is any chance I would actually follow through with a lawsuit or anything. Thanks everyone for the input, I'll just to one more hail mary in that Letter of Demand of Payment then walk away. It's really not that hard in most states; some even have free tenant advocates that will help you. The filing fee is just to discourage frivolous bullshit; it's common to add it to the award you're seeking (but you must add it when you file suit, not later). Where I've ended up in small claims, service was typically allowed via certified mail, filing fees were $100ish, and the entire process was about as easy as suing someone can be. The main issue for you is going to be showing up in person, but IMO, it's worth holding asshats accountable. There's also a significant chance that he'll just settle after you file suit, or at least be far more amenable to settling before the actual court date (where he's 99.99% certain to lose triple damages + court costs).
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Sep 12, 2014 03:56
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I don't remember that I sent my landlord a form asking for their signature or anything. I sent, via certified mail: -Copies of the lease agreement -Copies of receipts for the deposit and refund -Copies of relevant California legal code -Letter explaining, politely, that you illegally withheld a portion of my deposit and will return it immediately or I will file claim for (up to triple) damages in small claims court In my instance it was a very cut and dry issue and if I'd taken it to court I would've absolutely won, guessing that's the case for you also. In California, when you move out and your deposit is refunded, if the landlord keeps any for repairs or cleaning etc that all must be itemized and receipts/invoices provided to the outgoing tenant. It is a very common practice to charge a flat "cleaning fee" written into the lease agreement, but they're not actually allowed to do that. Obviously you don't want to deal with court, but your landlord surely knows he's hosed if you sue him and hopefully the polite threat of legal action with all relevant documentation should resolve the issue. Edit: the "cleaning fee" meant that they simply kept a flat 25% of everyone's deposit regardless of any repairs or cleaning done. And the landlord is responsible for "normal wear and tear." It seems perfectly reasonable and apparently is very common practice around here. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 04:44
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KaiserBen posted:Eviction for non-payment of rent is legal in every jurisdiction I know of. Where are you that it's not? I think they were just referring to the time period, not "eviction is illegal." But it varies place to place and sometimes the process is so difficult, it might as well be illegal. Incidentally your posts so far aren't doing much to change the perception of landlords, jesus
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Sep 12, 2014 14:36
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KaiserBen posted:Eviction for non-payment of rent is legal in every jurisdiction I know of. Where are you that it's not? NYC. It's illegal to evict someone without a court order and it must be conducted under the supervision of a city marshal or sheriff. Rosalind fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 15:37
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Kimmalah posted:I think they were just referring to the time period, not "eviction is illegal." But it varies place to place and sometimes the process is so difficult, it might as well be illegal. Incidentally your posts so far aren't doing much to change the perception of landlords, jesus I kinda figured they lived in one of the 14 day states, or DC where it's 30 (for some reasons to evict). Not a landlord, but I worked for a few. As far as "not helping"; you notice I told him to sue, right? I want to see people held accountable for lovely behavior; they made my former job harder. That said, gently caress lovely tenants too; they do the same. People need to follow the drat lease/law, then we'd hardly have any issues. Rosalind posted:NYC. It's illegal to evict someone without a court order and it must be conducted under the supervision of a city marshal or sheriff. That's the law everywhere. Nowhere in the US (that I know of, at least) allows self-help evictions anymore, and a landlord can actually be arrested for doing them. NYC still allows eviction for non-payment of rent; same as the rest of the country, though IIRC the notice period is 30 days there. Quick timeline of the process: Non-payment kicks it off, let's say rent's due on the 1st, late by the 5th. On the 6th, the landlord posts a "pay or quit" notice saying pay up or GTFO, or I'm filing for eviction. If the tenant doesn't pay by the end of the notice period (IIRC, 30 days in NYC), he files the papers with the court and serves the tenant with notice and the court date (methods vary according to local law, but typically certified mail or a door posting). If they show up without a good reason for non-paymnet, the judge will find in the owner's favor and schedule the lockout. Tenant gets notice of that date as they did of the court date, and the sheriff/marshal comes around that day, forces the tenant out and allows the landlord or employee to remove all the tenants stuff, possibly to storage (or the curb) depending on local law. Then the landlord changes the locks, and begins the turnover process, since he's probably lost 2-3 months rent. Where I worked, this was a pretty quick process, taking around 45 days total (5 day notice, generally <3 weeks for the court date and the lockout was scheduled within 2 weeks from the court finding). Some areas can manage <30 days total if the courts have the space available. KaiserBen fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Sep 12, 2014 |
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Sep 12, 2014 15:43
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KaiserBen posted:Non-payment kicks it off, let's say rent's due on the 1st, late by the 5th. On the 6th, the landlord posts a "pay or quit" notice saying pay up or GTFO, or I'm filing for eviction. If the tenant doesn't pay by the end of the notice period (IIRC, 30 days in NYC), he files the papers with the court and serves the tenant with notice and the court date (methods vary according to local law, but typically certified mail or a door posting). If they show up without a good reason for non-paymnet, the judge will find in the owner's favor and schedule the lockout. Tenant gets notice of that date as they did of the court date, and the sheriff/marshal comes around that day, forces the tenant out and allows the landlord or employee to remove all the tenants stuff, possibly to storage (or the curb) depending on local law. Then the landlord changes the locks, and begins the turnover process, since he's probably lost 2-3 months rent. My rent is due on the 1st and late on the 3rd. I post notice to pay or quit on the 4th, regardless of whether the tenant says they're moving out at the end of the month or not. Because if you say you're moving on Sept 30 and stiff me Sept rent, because you'll just use your security deposit (in direct violation of the lease), first, I no longer have any security deposit from you, and second.. you may have no intention to leave on Sept 30. Then Oct 1 when you're still there (and assumably stiff me October rent), then I post notice and I'm a month behind... on the 45 day timeline above (which is true only if the tenant doesn't know how to game the system), this puts tenny out sometime around mid-Nov, and some judges won't evict over the holidays. The tenant who has not paid rent since AUGUST. You know why I'm ruthless about eviction for non-payment? Because how ruthless would you be if suddenly (fire, flood, etc) your apartment was 0% usable, and the first of the following month rolled around, and the landlord was like... "where's the rent?". The rent and the apartment go hand in hand. I assume no one here would watch their apartment burn to the ground on the 30th and then go into the office and pay the following month's rent on the first. Because... why would you? There's no apartment anymore. Not paying your rent when you have a functional apartment is the same deal. You want to keep living here, pay the rent. You want to GTFO, go ahead. But you can't have it both ways.
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Sep 14, 2014 04:30
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