Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Ashsaber
Oct 24, 2010

Deploying Swordbreakers!

College Slice

The latest Coolguy stream archive uploaded to youtube has made me interested in getting this game, though going to wait for a steam sale. Interested in a list of what would be considered the important DLCs/game parts to get when one does drop.

Also sad that I don't really watch streams because it means I didn't get to see the conclusion of Grimgor and Imrich, BFFs. Real interesting way to be introduced to the game at least.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Vargs
Mar 27, 2010



Ashsaber posted:

The latest Coolguy stream archive uploaded to youtube has made me interested in getting this game, though going to wait for a steam sale. Interested in a list of what would be considered the important DLCs/game parts to get when one does drop.

Also sad that I don't really watch streams because it means I didn't get to see the conclusion of Grimgor and Imrich, BFFs. Real interesting way to be introduced to the game at least.

Warhammer 1 is the best DLC for Warhammer 2 by far. Basically mandatory.

The rest is pretty much just preference. Some of the oldest Warhammer 1 DLCs feel a bit lackluster nowadays (Chaos, Beastmen, Grim and the Grave) but generally just go for whatever you think looks cool. Love Skaven? Take your pick of any of their lord packs. Think Vampire Pirates sound neat? Grab Vampire Coast. You're some kind of shameful leaf-lover? Wood Elves are for you. Hard to go wrong. Honestly with WH1 and WH2 combined you have so much content that you could probably just wait for the next steam sale to grab anything else, and have a much better idea of what you want when that time comes around.

Vargs fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Apr 5, 2021

TheLastRoboKy
May 2, 2009

Finishing the game with everyone else's continues


Ashsaber posted:

Also sad that I don't really watch streams because it means I didn't get to see the conclusion of Grimgor and Imrich, BFFs. Real interesting way to be introduced to the game at least.

It kinda ended a bit weird because we sallied out with Grimgor and Imrik to slap Archaon, except Archaon fled from us and Karl Franz stole our kill. So we burned down Altdorf.

Muscle Tracer
Feb 23, 2007

Medals only weigh
one down.


jokes posted:

I quite like the building system except that once I find a combination That Just Plain Works, I just do that over and over except for specific research things and military buildings.

Instead, you should just upgrade the main building and all the other buildings are auto-upgraded.

this would be great as a "difficulty" mode, like how some games have a "narrarive mode." instead of just normal/hard/legendary, you could have "General mode" that works like this vs. "Emperor mode" with the building trees.

JT Jag
Aug 30, 2009

Fandom is misery.



Ashsaber posted:

The latest Coolguy stream archive uploaded to youtube has made me interested in getting this game, though going to wait for a steam sale. Interested in a list of what would be considered the important DLCs/game parts to get when one does drop.

Also sad that I don't really watch streams because it means I didn't get to see the conclusion of Grimgor and Imrich, BFFs. Real interesting way to be introduced to the game at least.
Buy Warhammer and Warhammer 2. Play a normal campaign as Tyrion from the High Elves, it's a campaign with a safe start and easy access to incredibly valuable territory that ramps into a massive economy with elite units that can beat anything. Optionally buy the Queen and the Crone DLC, which gives you access to Sisters of Avelorn, the which is arguably the strongest unit in the game. That'll get you a handle on the basic gameplay and campaign. After that I recommend playing a campaign as Grimgor, the orcs also have a varied roster of good units, but I recommend not doing them first because elements of the campaign are a bit more challenging.

After playing as elves and orcs, which combined have the full swath of ranged, elite melee units, cavalry and monsters, you'll probably have an idea of what kind of gameplay style you like the most. Buy DLC accordingly.

neonchameleon
Nov 14, 2012





JT Jag posted:

Yeah, keeping the slots and just having the building automatically upgrade without cost would save a lot of campaign map micro. They'd have to rebalance econ a bit to make that not broken, though.

At the very least with no rebalancing build queues would be nice. I don't want to have to go back to a settlement four times to replace a t3 growth building with a t3 economic building. Instead I just want to click the T3 building and have it built up to there as long as I just drop the money in. Likewise and especially I never build T2 minor settlement defences unless the plan is for T3 - walls or nothing. But I still have to faff for them

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


For those interested, some timelapse videos of what the AI does on the campaign map if left to their own devices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvtKSN65IE Tyrion losing the Highelf civil war ending with Empire smushed between Greenskins and Darkelves with a rogue army controlling lustria.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USgTWrUp4qE Highelf and Dwarven alliance wiping out the vampire infestation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnUDXkAbdzY Alith Anar has HAD IT with Darkelves existing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBnAIE0RWl0 For Sigmar.

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006


Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?



God drat fighting Skaven is always a huge pain in the rear end and the complete opposite of anything resembling fun.

How is getting plagued and having it spread to your entire frontier and wiping out your armies and garrisons there supposed to be fun? poo poo lasts like 6-8 turns, loving ridiculous.

It's even more hosed up with the growth changes that make rebuilding lost settlements insanely time consuming after all the wasted growth due to being sacked or razed.

Cranappleberry
Jan 27, 2009


strategically abandon cities, retreat with your armies, expand more slowly, target the skaven first

disease was a thing armies and cities had to deal with and it rarely went well. And skaven diseases are like that on steroids.

I think there should be a tech that gives certain factions (like empire) resistance (but not immunity) to disease spread if you build certain buildings or choice trees that hurt a lot now but in the long run are better for you. It is a massive malus which means you should make big sacrifices to avoid it.

Gyrotica
Nov 26, 2012

Grafted to machines your builders did not understand.

Cranappleberry posted:

strategically abandon cities, retreat with your armies, expand more slowly, target the skaven first

disease was a thing armies and cities had to deal with and it rarely went well. And skaven diseases are like that on steroids.

I think there should be a tech that gives certain factions (like empire) resistance (but not immunity) to disease spread if you build certain buildings or choice trees that hurt a lot now but in the long run are better for you. It is a massive malus which means you should make big sacrifices to avoid it.

Donít Skaven get awesome bonuses for colonizing ruins?

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011


they can just use food to skip past early growth stages

downside is that you have to use food every time, you can't just settle and get the place at one lower level which hinders you from gaining from the ais growth bonuses. but food is trivial nowadays.

the ai skaven don't use food at all.

Floppychop
Mar 30, 2012



Gyrotica posted:

Donít Skaven get awesome bonuses for colonizing ruins?

Not really a bonus, they can just take it at whatever level they want as long as they spend the food. I'm not sure if the AI takes stuff at a higher level.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Floppychop posted:

Not really a bonus, they can just take it at whatever level they want as long as they spend the food. I'm not sure if the AI takes stuff at a higher level.

Iím pretty sure AI Skaven uses normal conquering. The AI doesnít even have the Food mechanic.

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006


Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?



I was able to save scum my way to not losing any valuable money making settlements (Ghrond's and Hag Graef's gold mines) despite the plague decimating them. Moved some armies around and it made the AI hesitant to commit to besieging any one settlement despite having armies full of plagueclaw catapults and weapons teams. Managed to do this long enough to survive the plague and replenish my armies enough to lightning strike my way out of this mess.

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Plagues are fun in theory, but they just feel really unfun once you realize that, like attrition, the AI can mostly just ignore it.

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011


they can do a number but they are another thing where the ai essentially get one less turn of impact because of how turn order processing works. i... think? it seems like it.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Cranappleberry posted:

strategically abandon cities, retreat with your armies, expand more slowly, target the skaven first

disease was a thing armies and cities had to deal with and it rarely went well. And skaven diseases are like that on steroids.

I think there should be a tech that gives certain factions (like empire) resistance (but not immunity) to disease spread if you build certain buildings or choice trees that hurt a lot now but in the long run are better for you. It is a massive malus which means you should make big sacrifices to avoid it.

Sure armies dealt with plagues all the time but they also dealt with major supply line issues that also aren't a thing at all in WH2 so crying "realism" isn't much of an answer. Mostly, I find plagues not fun because short of killing the plague priest there isn't much you can do against them, and killing the priest doesn't stop them from being spread by armies. It is incredibly punishing in terms of attrition to all your garrisons and armies and you mostly just have to wait it out, and abandoning settlements is really painful now that growth is as slow as it is.

I suppose you could constantly combine and recruit new units to keep up a stack defensively for the very long duration (which also would just pin the army in place) but it's really punishing without much to do about it.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Tiler Kiwi posted:

they can do a number but they are another thing where the ai essentially get one less turn of impact because of how turn order processing works. i... think? it seems like it.

I've been wondering about this, when do game rules "tick", is it at the start of your next turn?

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011


Zaphod42 posted:

I've been wondering about this, when do game rules "tick", is it at the start of your next turn?

a lot of things would tick at the end of the entire turn cycle, and the player is always the first to go at the start of the cycle. techs, replinishment and attrition, random events and such, income / revolts, recruitment, the works.

it results in a lot of annoying oddities. for instance, you move into enemy territory, they reply by recruiting a stack and then by the time you reach their city their recruitment is complete. however, if they come into your territory, the cycle change happens before you can recruit so they siege before your new troops appear.

i know in 3k they've moved some of this stuff to happen at the end/start of each factions turn, but only when its particularly egregious; an enemy would lay siege to a settlement and your garrison would take attrition damage before you responded, but the ai armies never did. its an architectural holdover at this point; there is really no gameplay reason to not have that poo poo happen on individual faction turns other than it was maybe easier to implement at the time and now there is too much technical debt to justify the wages paid to people who would change it.

Cranappleberry
Jan 27, 2009


Ravenfood posted:

Sure armies dealt with plagues all the time but they also dealt with major supply line issues that also aren't a thing at all in WH2 so crying "realism" isn't much of an answer. Mostly, I find plagues not fun because short of killing the plague priest there isn't much you can do against them, and killing the priest doesn't stop them from being spread by armies. It is incredibly punishing in terms of attrition to all your garrisons and armies and you mostly just have to wait it out, and abandoning settlements is really painful now that growth is as slow as it is.

I suppose you could constantly combine and recruit new units to keep up a stack defensively for the very long duration (which also would just pin the army in place) but it's really punishing without much to do about it.

I don't want to get bogged down in a realism debate because obviously the game isn't realistic and I don't want it to be. But its an interesting and flavorful mechanic to use. Again, I think there should be something mitigate it for the player. Also I personally think supply line and resource management would be super cool but that's me.

I will argue that the AI needs advantages over the player and stacking melee attack and defense buffs are not enough. If they can't slow the player down because you'd crush them immediately and that is no fun. You can still divide and conquer pretty easily.

There are limits to people dealing with the slog, though.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Cranappleberry posted:

I don't want to get bogged down in a realism debate because obviously the game isn't realistic and I don't want it to be. But its an interesting and flavorful mechanic to use. Again, I think there should be something mitigate it for the player. Also I personally think supply line and resource management would be super cool but that's me.

I will argue that the AI needs advantages over the player and stacking melee attack and defense buffs are not enough. If they can't slow the player down because you'd crush them immediately and that is no fun. You can still divide and conquer pretty easily.

There are limits to people dealing with the slog, though.

Oh I like the plague mechanic as an idea, I just think it isn't handled well mechanically because once there's a plague nearby, nothing you can do will keep you from getting plagued. Maybe if it stopped all replenishment, gave minor attrition, and gave combat debuffs like having an constant poison effect? You'd still be able to use it to give yourself an advantage but it wouldn't just mean that your frontier cities and armies just wither away after 3 turns.

Also I'd unironically like supply lines and think early game 3k where you actually have to worry about army supply is a good one.

E: some way to institute quarantine or...something. Make attrition damage only happen while on the move or while garrisoned so your armies are trapped outside the city walls but can still generally not just wither away immediately.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Apr 6, 2021

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


If you don't garrison in the city with a plague then your army won't get plagued.

Edgar Allen Ho
Apr 3, 2017


Quoth James Cameron,

"Nevermore"



Idea: delete the plagues and let pestilens, the best and perhaps only good clan, have cool mechanics like the others got

Damn Dirty Ape
Jan 23, 2015


Plague sucks for the same reason public order and attrition in general suck. The AI is incapable of dealing with the mechanics so they are basically switched off for the AI by default. It's probably been my biggest complaint with this game going back to the first one. There are a lot of mechanics and hero bonuses and things that are effectively useless against the AI. This frustratingly eliminates the entire strategy level of terrain type (mountain passes, arctic/desert, magic forests, etc) and corruption based factions for everyone but the player. It's lame and would be on the short list of things I'd want them to fix in TW3 if I believed it was possible.

DeadFatDuckFat
Oct 29, 2012

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


Plagued armies should have stink lines coming off of their units on the battlefield

John Charity Spring
Nov 3, 2009

ACTIVATE THE QUEEN



DeadFatDuckFat posted:

Plagued armies should have stink lines coming off of their units on the battlefield

The blood DLC for TW Attila made plagued armies have all their guys vomiting and so on in-battle. It was kind of over the top.

DeadFatDuckFat
Oct 29, 2012

This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.


John Charity Spring posted:

The blood DLC for TW Attila made plagued armies have all their guys vomiting and so on in-battle. It was kind of over the top.

I remember that and I approve of over the top things in warhammer

Scott Forstall
Aug 16, 2003

MMM THAT FAUX LEATHER


the composition and implementation of this beast wizard doom stack is pretty funny, imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ws36MAbpc


the op is in the comments.

Tiler Kiwi
Feb 26, 2011


Edgar Allen Ho posted:

Idea: delete the plagues and let pestilens, the best and perhaps only good clan, have cool mechanics like the others got

take a bath, heretic.

pnutz
Jan 5, 2015


drat Dirty Ape posted:

Plague sucks for the same reason public order and attrition in general suck. The AI is incapable of dealing with the mechanics so they are basically switched off for the AI by default. It's probably been my biggest complaint with this game going back to the first one. There are a lot of mechanics and hero bonuses and things that are effectively useless against the AI. This frustratingly eliminates the entire strategy level of terrain type (mountain passes, arctic/desert, magic forests, etc) and corruption based factions for everyone but the player. It's lame and would be on the short list of things I'd want them to fix in TW3 if I believed it was possible.

Make it where they can't deal with it anyway and the ai just falls apart. Setting fires in ai castles in stronghold crusader was and is great. This might make the chaos invasion more interesting if there's chaos nonsense happening everywhere to give the ai hordes more of a chance of getting into kislev

Comrade Blyatlov
Aug 4, 2007


should have picked four fingers


Tiler Kiwi posted:

take a bath, heretic.

Skaven need plagues to have a chance against getting Grailed

Ps Graildivers dlc when

Damn Dirty Ape
Jan 23, 2015


pnutz posted:

Make it where they can't deal with it anyway and the ai just falls apart. Setting fires in ai castles in stronghold crusader was and is great. This might make the chaos invasion more interesting if there's chaos nonsense happening everywhere to give the ai hordes more of a chance of getting into kislev

I used to do this with mods but unfortunately since the AI doesn't know how to handle it they end up drastically nerfed so much that it's not really fun. I remember things like pre-revamp greenskin armies garrisoned in cities just infighting themselves to death (full armies with 1 health in each unit).

Cranappleberry
Jan 27, 2009


look we all know launching smelly, ignorant peasants blessed by The Lady and doused in holy water is good and right and exactly what The Lady wills. The question is do we use holy oil and light them on fire before launch? Perhaps make them carry a torch and ignite in cleansing fire mid-air?

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006


Have you considered not attending the Captain's Career Course?



What's the arbitrary lore reason you can't build walls in chaos wastes? It's ridiculous Rakarth on the vortex map can't build walls in a province separated by water. The beginning of this campaign is nothing but following force marched/full sail armies as they zoom around the map to get at your ports without walls. Think I'm just going to let the AI do whatever they want to them, not worth the hassle of keeping them protected.

Total War has never been good at naval stuff and I hope WH3 has little to no ocean to deal with.

Tarquinn
Jul 3, 2007

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."



Hell Gem


Thank you!

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

Fun Shoe

Mustang posted:

What's the arbitrary lore reason you can't build walls in chaos wastes? It's ridiculous Rakarth on the vortex map can't build walls in a province separated by water. The beginning of this campaign is nothing but following force marched/full sail armies as they zoom around the map to get at your ports without walls. Think I'm just going to let the AI do whatever they want to them, not worth the hassle of keeping them protected.

Total War has never been good at naval stuff and I hope WH3 has little to no ocean to deal with.

The AIs huge boner for unwalled settlements is one of the most annoying things in the campaign. You can use it to your advantage of course but it just tends to make everything tedious. I hate having to sacrifice a building slot for walls, it just delays development and drags on campaigns which are already way too long. If you don't then 3 factions come charging across their foes territory just to get that 100 income settlement.

I used to have a mod to deal with it but can't remember what the name was.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


The campaign layer makes walls mandatory everywhere, but it actively makes the battle layer of the game worse because of sieges.

Sasgrillo
Apr 13, 2013


Before I only walled up capitals because minor settlements could be rebuilt relatively quickly. But when CA hosed up growth walling became a must because of how much longer it takes to develop them.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

The campaign layer makes walls mandatory everywhere, but it actively makes the battle layer of the game worse because of sieges.

I wouldnít put walls up if the AI wouldnít try its hardest to avoid all walled settlements and only attack unwalled settlements no matter how far away they are.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

Fun Shoe

Sasgrillo posted:

Before I only walled up capitals because minor settlements could be rebuilt relatively quickly. But when CA hosed up growth walling became a must because of how much longer it takes to develop them.

Yeah I really hate wasting 20 turns on some piece of crap settlement, only to have a Skaven or Greenskins stack materialize out of nowhere after passing over 2 other enemies.

Speaking of growth, did they fix Tomb Kings growth or is still really slow? I should really do a Tomb Kings vortex campaign soon, they have a really chill campaign that strikes a balance between Vortex and Mortal Empires. ME campaigns just take too damned long for almost every race.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply